Author Topic: Should Christians be able to drink?  (Read 5240 times)

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Offline radioman

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Should Christians be able to drink?
« on: January 08, 2014, 12:42:59 PM »
Should Christians be able to drink? I first thought I would ask "Can Christians drink?"

That question (can), probably is better context, but in reality, we can do anything we want anyway, so I changed it to 'should'.

As Christians, we are called to be a 'light' in the darkness, so, where does 'drinking' fall into this?
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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2014, 12:48:57 PM »
Jesus drank. He even provided drink. If we are to become Christlike, I see no reason why drinking alcohol should be considered a sin, so long as its done in moderation, or done with 100% self-responsibility for consequences.

When liquor becomes your god - that is when it becomes sinful. I think that there is basis for some sectarian prohibition on drinking because of the addictive quality, and the sinful consequences of addiction.

But that goes for any addiction, not just booze. When anything takes over your life and crowds out God, that's sinful.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2014, 12:53:59 PM »
"Should" Christians be able to overeat -- engage in gluttony?  Become anorexic?  Become unhealthily obsessed with an exercise-activity?  Same issue, different vice/sin.

Each item, taken or done in moderation, is good for us; in excess, bad.  Everything in moderation.

"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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Offline radioman

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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2014, 01:00:54 PM »
Jesus drank. He even provided drink.

I don't remember the scripture where Jesus drank. I know he turned water into wine. I know he drank the vinegar while he was on the Cross.

Are you being a 'Light' in the world of darkness while drinking?
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Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2014, 01:08:41 PM »
There really is no room to argue for a prohibition by scripture.  Drunkenness is clearly opposed. Alcohol is clearly endorsed in a couple of places. Moderation is key. 

(Just ONE example from scripture.)
1.1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
Phil Robertson an elder in the church of Christ

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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2014, 01:10:16 PM »
Jesus drank. He even provided drink.

I don't remember the scripture where Jesus drank. I know he turned water into wine. I know he drank the vinegar while he was on the Cross.

Are you being a 'Light' in the world of darkness while drinking?

Honey, if not for the gift of red wine, I would bring no 'Light' to the world of darkness atall.

Seriously, though; how is a glass of wine or beer or a tipple of fine liqueur adding to the world of darkness or depriving it of my 'Light'?
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2014, 01:11:21 PM »
Jesus drank. He even provided drink.

I don't remember the scripture where Jesus drank. I know he turned water into wine. I know he drank the vinegar while he was on the Cross.

Are you being a 'Light' in the world of darkness while drinking?


The scriptures say he did:


Matthew 11:18-20

King James Version (KJV)


18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
Phil Robertson an elder in the church of Christ

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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2014, 01:14:49 PM »
Jesus drank. He even provided drink.

I don't remember the scripture where Jesus drank.

After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

ETA: The Disciples gave him the cup, assuming he would drink as he always had. Instead, he gave it back to them, telling them that he would not drink wine again until Kingdom Come.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Predator Don

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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2014, 01:26:50 PM »
As most have stated, moderation is the key. This, and let your conscience be your guide.
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Offline radioman

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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2014, 01:40:55 PM »
As most have stated, moderation is the key. This, and let your conscience be your guide.

I was raised in a Methodist church, and they taught moderation. But moderation can be and is abused too much of the time.

I wouldn't advise a liberal to let your conscience be your guide. They already do that to the nth degree, and you see where that got us.
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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2014, 02:34:17 PM »
Quote
But moderation can be and is abused too much of the time.

Hunh?  By definition, moderation precludes abuse or extremes.

What, may I ask, prompted this line of discussion, radioman?
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2014, 03:00:32 PM »
So... now that I've given a scriptural example of Jesus stating that he drinks wine, I'm curious as to your response Radioman.

As Pan, I'm curious to know your thoughts, as opposed to just knowing your question.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2014, 03:14:24 PM »
IDP, you might find it interesting that, beginning in the late 1800's some preachers began to deny that the scripture you provided had alcohol in it. The word used in the original language (Greek) could go either way. It was an all inclusive term, literally meaning the fruit of the vine, and does not comment one way or the other on alcohol content.  The timing of the year makes it too early for the harvest and fresh wine, and the Passover celebration was required to use a sweet wine, so their argument is STILL not valid, but it is why I use the more obscure scripture where there is a VERY clear statement that Jesus came drinking wine.
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
Phil Robertson an elder in the church of Christ

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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2014, 03:27:18 PM »
IDP, you might find it interesting that, beginning in the late 1800's some preachers began to deny that the scripture you provided had alcohol in it. The word used in the original language (Greek) could go either way. It was an all inclusive term, literally meaning the fruit of the vine, and does not comment one way or the other on alcohol content.  The timing of the year makes it too early for the harvest and fresh wine, and the Passover celebration was required to use a sweet wine, so their argument is STILL not valid, but it is why I use the more obscure scripture where there is a VERY clear statement that Jesus came drinking wine.

I think that in organized religion, there is an ever-present risk of preachers interpreting scripture to fit their own moral code. In other words, to influence or control the behavior of their flock. A preacher wanting to influence his flock away from alcoholic spirits has an interest in finding a way to justify it scripturally, even to the point of incredulity.

Everything we know about the culture of the times suggests that the drinking of wine was the norm. For those preachers in the late 1800's to use the ambiguity of the term "fruit of the vine" as a justification for theorizing that Jesus did not drink alcohol defies the application of common sense. Your noting that the Passover required wine is yet another indication. Airtight, in my opinion. I don't see how it could be denied that Jesus drank wine.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2014, 03:40:17 PM »
Quote
Everything we know about the culture of the times suggests that the drinking of wine was the norm.

And also because the water was "iffy", as I understand it.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline AlanS

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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2014, 03:42:58 PM »
I'm not sure where I got it from (I was raised Southern Baptist), but I always thought demon alcohol was frowned upon because drinking was likely to lead to sinning. Losing inhibitions and all. Same with dancing.

For the record, I'm fond of drinking and dancing with the wife. Of course, it takes me a few beers to dance to the music she likes.
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Offline Septugenarian

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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2014, 04:03:40 PM »
It would help for all to view the video "How Beer Saved The World".  It is humorous but does illustrate that because of greatly polluted water in times of yore, brewing beer made a healthful drink owing to the boiling of the nasty water.  To quote my FIL, "Water is only for bathing, and even then not too often."
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Offline radioman

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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2014, 04:28:33 PM »
So... now that I've given a scriptural example of Jesus stating that he drinks wine, I'm curious as to your response Radioman.


I believe the verse you listed can be interpreted either way. Preachers can sway their congregations either way as well.

I don't like the principle of moderation because there is no definitive threshold of what is and not is, is.

There have been many people purpose to drink moderately and up being a drunk. They took the moderation road.

There are verses that tell us to run away from sin as fast and far as possible. Since, we probably are all in agreement that being a drunk is a sin, then, the common sense principle of running away from the sin of being drunk, is to not drink at all.

Now a counter argument could be made for using a credit card. Do we all agree that being in debt is a sin? Then, a similar argument could be made that we shouldn't use a credit card, because it would make it too easy to get in too much debt. Now, I know that I can use a credit card, because I have total confidence in my ability to never get into serious debt, but I also know, that there are a lot of people who purpose to not get in serious debt when they get their credit card, to only wind up in serious debt. So, can a person have total confidence in not becoming a drunk when they start drinking?

So, is using a credit card a sin?

I believe there are no right or wrong answers.
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Offline Predator Don

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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2014, 05:08:37 PM »
I have total confidence, because I read and pray every day, I will not become a drunk. The two scriptures below is clear indication of moderation.... But I do agree, if you don't trust yourself to be diligent, in all things, then best leave the wine alone. I really don't care what others opinion of what is moderate, these are personal decisions to be made and arguing moderation is akin to explaining what a "living wage" is.



Titus 2:3   

Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,




1 Timothy 3:8   

Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.
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Re: Should Christians be able to drink?
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2014, 07:07:20 PM »
There's a difference between ones concept of what is wise, and sin.

Avoiding alcohol because it may lead to sin is a wise choice from the point of view that eliminating temptations reduces the likelihood of sin. But that doesn't mean that partaking in alcohol is sin.

Walking out the front door can lead to sin. Doesn't make it sinful.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson