Topic: Should Christians be able to drink?

[ChrstnHsbndFthr]

There's a difference between ones concept of what is wise, and sin.

Avoiding alcohol because it may lead to sin is a wise choice from the point of view that eliminating temptations reduces the likelihood of sin. But that doesn't mean that partaking in alcohol is sin.

Walking out the front door can lead to sin. Doesn't make it sinful.

Perfect understanding......er... ditto!!

[trapeze]

I abused alcohol in my youth. I think that I did that because, although my parents enjoyed alcohol in moderation (I never ever saw them abuse it), they did not introduce me to it. Instead, my friends did. Not good. And, as long as I am in a confessional mood, I experimented with marijuana in my youth, as well.

But fortunately, and by the grace of God, I grew up. I think that I was maybe 23 when I decided to never abuse alcohol (or use marijuana) again. And I never have since. Not once.

And through it all, I was and am a Christian. I became a Christian when I was a child...ten, I think. So, I was a Christian while I was abusing alcohol and smoking dope.

And that's just it...Christians aren't perfect. Merely saved and forgiven. We are, like everyone, born into sin. If we become saved, truly saved, then it is our goal to become more like Christ with each passing day. It is, by definition, not achievable but it is a goal nonetheless. Those who are truly saved work toward it all the while knowing that they will never get there. There will be setbacks along the way...we will backslide from time to time. But loving Christ (because He loved us first) means that we will not stop trying to follow His example in all things.

This is one of the more difficult things for non-believers to come to grips with. They mistakenly believe that we think that because we are Christians we are perfect. They seem to relish any opportunity to call Christians hypocrites. And...some of us are. But I choose to believe that the hypocritical Christians are those who just need to grow a bit more in the right direction.

At any rate...I know what sin is because I am a sinner. But I also know that the alcohol that I enjoy (not abuse) now, the act of consuming it...savoring the experience...is not a sin. There is still sin in my life and there always will be but drinking in small amounts, something considerably short of intoxication, isn't sin.

So there it is.

[Pandora]

I'm not sure where I got it from (I was raised Southern Baptist), but I always thought demon alcohol was frowned upon because drinking was likely to lead to sinning. Losing inhibitions and all. Same with dancing.

For the record, I'm fond of drinking and dancing with the wife. Of course, it takes me a few beers to dance to the music she likes.

"Shall we dance, shall we dance, shall we dance........".

Dancing in harmony with the proper partner encourages a period of joy.  Any man that does not understand that does not understand women, including his wife, for the most part.  It's the lead-in to the horizontal mambo, baybee.

It's a shame most men do not get that the feet moving in time to the music set the hips in motion as well.  It is understandable to me that in some denominations, dancing was banned as a precursor to sin.  As in all things, these desires must and can be channeled.  Move in harmony with your wife, feet tapping, hips swaying, a breath on her neck and a joyful smile, encircling her waist and stepping with her through shared moves and you'll be a *happy* twosome in the very near future.

It's the best aphrodisiac known to womankind.  You want evidence?  Remember your nightclub/bar days?  Who had the most women in attendance?  It was the happily dancing man.

[radioman]

Avoiding alcohol because it may lead to sin is a wise choice from the point of view that eliminating temptations reduces the likelihood of sin. But that doesn't mean that partaking in alcohol is sin.

"But that doesn't mean that partaking in alcohol is sin", even if you realize that it could lead to a state of drunkness.

"Walking out the front door can lead to sin. Doesn't make it sinful." Not a good example. There is not much spoken about walking through doors. You could sin without walking through doors, or you could sin walking through doors.

How about, would it be wise to take your secretary to lunch? Not necessarily a sin to eat a lunch, right? Is that a wise thing to do if you want to avoid the temptations of sin?

I get it. You come down on the side that drinking is not a sin.

[radioman]

So there it is.

Alcohol has already burned you once and yet you're still willing to partake, and still believe that drinking is not a sin?

Ok, I get it.

[Pandora]

A little harsh, r-man.  There are those who have conquered their temptations and those who know onto which ground to not step.

This is not for you to judge, doncha think? 

You choose your path, others will choose theirs and deal with the consequences.

[IronDioPriest]

Avoiding alcohol because it may lead to sin is a wise choice from the point of view that eliminating temptations reduces the likelihood of sin. But that doesn't mean that partaking in alcohol is sin.

"But that doesn't mean that partaking in alcohol is sin", even if you realize that it could lead to a state of drunkness.

"Walking out the front door can lead to sin. Doesn't make it sinful." Not a good example. There is not much spoken about walking through doors. You could sin without walking through doors, or you could sin walking through doors.

How about, would it be wise to take your secretary to lunch? Not necessarily a sin to eat a lunch, right? Is that a wise thing to do if you want to avoid the temptations of sin?

I get it. You come down on the side that drinking is not a sin.

I don't have a secretary, but if I did, I wouldn't hesitate to take her to lunch. What kind of a husband am I if I cannot engage with women without being tempted to sleep with them? Let's even assume she's a hottie. Appreciation of female beauty and making a move toward infidelity aren't even in the same universe to me. Not even close.

I don't come down on the side that drinking is not a sin. I come down on the side that temptation does not equal sin. Further, liquor does not tempt me beyond casual enjoyment under proper circumstances. So liquor isn't even a temptation to me. It is no more tempting than walking out the door to experience whatever the day may bring.

[LadyVirginia]

Ditto what IDP and Pan said.

I can see where it can be handy to make blanket statements that drinking or dancing or whatever is a sin because you avoid the whole uncomfortable feeling and internal debate when you're tempted.

I think it's best to avoid sources of temptation but what's a temptation is different for every person.

Rather than trying to define certain activities as sinful for everyone I think it's best to approach it with the question of "what kind of person do I want to be?"

I remember when my oldest ones were young and they wanted to know if it would be a sin to read a certain book or watch a certain movie or tv show.  I said assuming for a moment that they aren't are those the kind of things you want to fill your mind with?

I can enjoy one glass of wine with a fabulous Italian meal and I'm not sinning; I'm not even tempted to sin.

And, yes, I believe Jesus drank. He also ate with sinners and did all those things that others were quick to point out as sinful. He told us what to do to deserve the Kingdom; I don't remember not drinking being one of them.

[Libertas]

Sounds like a Hank Williams Jr song in the making...

"If there ain't no booze in heaven, then send me right to Hell".

Is this where this going?

 

[IronDioPriest]

I think Radioman's position is respectable. A lot of good Christian people avoid alcohol for exactly the reasons he states. Given the destructiveness of it, I think the existence of alcohol is obviously a net negative. Avoiding it entirely as a way to avoid sin is wise in the way that avoiding sex is a surefire way to avoid pregnancy. A firewall of 100% abstinence cannot be breeched.

That said, the question was not should a Christian drink, or is it wise for a Christian to drink, but rather whether a Christian should be able to drink. I assumed that to mean (and I think Radioman's follow-up reinforces the assumption) that he was asking whether biblical Christianity allows drinking.

We are commanded to avoid sin, not to eliminate all possibility of temptation from life. I don't see any way to read the bible that avoids the reality that Jesus drank wine as did his disciples with his approval, and that Hebrew custom (Jesus was a rabbi after all) required wine for religious ceremony.

So it is my opinion that biblical Christianity definitely allows drinking. If someone can make the case otherwise, I'm willing to listen.

[radioman]

A little harsh, r-man.  There are those who have conquered their temptations and those who know onto which ground to not step.

This is not for you to judge, doncha think? 

You choose your path, others will choose theirs and deal with the consequences.

I didn't mean for it to sound harsh. Sometimes, on the internet keyboard, it may sound more harsh than intended. @Trap that certainly is the case. Only asking a question, as sometimes, we can be more confident in what we think we can do or not do. I'm certainly not passing judgment on anyone's opinion.

I too have strong confidences, but pride does come before a fall, and sometimes, it is wise to not play too close to temptations.

Like IDP stated, he is not tempted by liquor, I'm not either. I still choose to not partake at all, and I realize that is my decision.

I also would have no problem taking a secretary to lunch, as far as temptation is concerned, but I would avoid that also. Sometimes bad things can happen beyond our control, even when we think that we're in control, so not letting ourselves be in any compromising position is the best position. IOW, the best way to handle unintended consequences is to not participate to begin with.

[Pandora]

A little harsh, r-man.  There are those who have conquered their temptations and those who know onto which ground to not step.

This is not for you to judge, doncha think? 

You choose your path, others will choose theirs and deal with the consequences.

I didn't mean for it to sound harsh. Sometimes, on the internet keyboard, it may sound more harsh than intended. @Trap that certainly is the case. Only asking a question, as sometimes, we can be more confident in what we think we can do or not do. I'm certainly not passing judgment on anyone's opinion.

I too have strong confidences, but pride does come before a fall, and sometimes, it is wise to not play too close to temptations.

Like IDP stated, he is not tempted by liquor, I'm not either. I still choose to not partake at all, and I realize that is my decision.

I also would have no problem taking a secretary to lunch, as far as temptation is concerned, but I would avoid that also. Sometimes bad things can happen beyond our control, even when we think that we're in control, so not letting ourselves be in any compromising position is the best position. IOW, the best way to handle unintended consequences is to not participate to begin with.

I can see no argument with that.

[IronDioPriest]

I also would have no problem taking a secretary to lunch, as far as temptation is concerned, but I would avoid that also. Sometimes bad things can happen beyond our control, even when we think that we're in control, so not letting ourselves be in any compromising position is the best position. IOW, the best way to handle unintended consequences is to not participate to begin with.

Our pastor demanded that his office have a door with windows and a window into the adjoining office, for a similar reason. He also takes the step of never meeting with a female at the church alone. His wife, his mother, or another female staffer will always be on the other side of that window when he meets with a woman.

He's not as concerned with being tempted, but rather concerned with maintaining the strictest discipline when it comes to his role as pastor, and ensuring that no claims of impropriety can ever be leveled at him.

[oldcoastie6468]

He's not as concerned with being tempted, but rather concerned with maintaining the strictest discipline when it comes to his role as pastor, and ensuring that no claims of impropriety can ever be leveled at him.

Unfortunately in today's climate, that is necessary and is called "anus protectus", or "To thine own ass be true."

[AlanS]

He's not as concerned with being tempted, but rather concerned with maintaining the strictest discipline when it comes to his role as pastor, and ensuring that no claims of impropriety can ever be leveled at him.

Unfortunately in today's climate, that is necessary and is called "anus protectus", or "To thine own ass be true."

I like to keep it simple. CYA.

[Predator Don]

Ditto what IDP and Pan said.

I can see where it can be handy to make blanket statements that drinking or dancing or whatever is a sin because you avoid the whole uncomfortable feeling and internal debate when you're tempted.

I think it's best to avoid sources of temptation but what's a temptation is different for every person.

Rather than trying to define certain activities as sinful for everyone I think it's best to approach it with the question of "what kind of person do I want to be?"

I remember when my oldest ones were young and they wanted to know if it would be a sin to read a certain book or watch a certain movie or tv show.  I said assuming for a moment that they aren't are those the kind of things you want to fill your mind with?

I can enjoy one glass of wine with a fabulous Italian meal and I'm not sinning; I'm not even tempted to sin.

And, yes, I believe Jesus drank. He also ate with sinners and did all those things that others were quick to point out as sinful. He told us what to do to deserve the Kingdom; I don't remember not drinking being one of them.

I belongs to a church once where avoidance was advocated for many different things....Drinking being one of those things. There were teachings, lessons I appreciated, I enjoyed the fellowship, so while I disagreed to the one size fits all, as I believe like LV that temptation is different with each individual.....and the point LV makes was verified, because even though it was a strict fundamentalist  church, the pastor had an affair with the piano player, I found a deacon with the same issue, so the " no drinking", "no this" "no that" really didn't keep temptation at bay. It is up to each individual, with help from God, to keep your moral compass intact.

Most of you know what I do for a living, but I have never once been tempted to cheat. My fear and respect of God wouldn't allow it, and maybe some shouldn't put themselves in my environment, but it is an individual's decision.