Author Topic: An interesting and IMPORTANT proposal  (Read 1103 times)

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Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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An interesting and IMPORTANT proposal
« on: January 13, 2014, 10:06:05 PM »
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/368243/when-ignorance-excellent-excuse-evan-bernick

Overcriminalization strikes at the heart of our constitutional order. In Bouie v. City of Columbia the U.S. Supreme Court explained the constitutional doctrine of “fair notice,” which holds that a criminal law “must give warning of the conduct it makes a crime.” Traditionally, this requirement was satisfied if (1) the prohibited act was inherently wrongful — such as murder, arson, theft, robbery, or rape — or (2) an individual did something that he or she knew was illegal, even if it was not inherently wrongful.





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In recent years, though, federal, state, and local laws that do not meet either requirement but carry criminal penalties have proliferated. Exacerbating the problem, as noted by Ohio State law professor Joshua Dressler in his comprehensive treatise Understanding Criminal Law, “many modern statutes are exceedingly intricate” and “even a person with a clear moral compass is frequently unable to determine accurately whether conduct is prohibited.” As a result, ordinary Americans can be victimized by laws supposedly designed to protect them.

Some overcriminalization incidents can sound amusing until we remember that they involve real people whose lives can be ruined. Last year police charged 46-year-old Ocean Beach, Calif., resident Juvencio Adame with “defacement, damage and destruction” of public property in excess of $400 — charges that could have resulted in significant prison time. His crime? Trimming shrubbery next to his home. Then there’s 17-year-old Cody Chitwood of Cobb County, Ga. Police charged him with a felony for bringing weapons into a school zone. The “weapons” were fishing knives, and they were in a tackle box in Cody’s truck. Georgia law states that any knife “having a blade of two or more inches” is a weapon, and that anyone who carries a weapon onto school property is by that very act guilty of a crime.

“Ignorance of the law is no excuse”? Spare us.

What should we do about this grave threat to our liberties? We can start by addressing the inadequate mens rea (guilty mind) requirements in our criminal law. Legislators must work to identify and repeal or amend laws with insufficient mens rea requirements, and ensure that no such laws are passed in the future.

Additionally, lawmakers should codify interpretive rules that require courts to read meaningful mens rea requirements into any criminal offenses that lack them (unless Congress makes it clear that it intended to enact a strict-liability offense with no mens rea requirement) and should direct courts to apply any existing mens rea term in a criminal offense to each material element of that offense. Legislators should also codify the “rule of lenity” — a judicial rule of interpretation that requires courts to construe ambiguous criminal laws in favor of the accused.

Finally, legislators need to provide an escape hatch for those who were “rationally ignorant” of the law: a mistake-of-law defense in which a defendant would have the burden of producing evidence that he did not know that his conduct was illegal, nor would a reasonable person in his position have believed that the charged conduct was illegal.
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Offline warpmine

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Re: An interesting and IMPORTANT proposal
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2014, 07:34:59 AM »
Honestly Judge, I didn't realize it was against the law to be alive. ???
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 11:42:38 AM by warpmine »
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Offline Libertas

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Re: An interesting and IMPORTANT proposal
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2014, 07:49:48 AM »
If overcriminalization is occurring, and I have no doubt that it is, it stands to reason that undercriminialization is also occurring.

Not only has the long time-honored tradition of "the reasonable man" test that has been with us since the advent of English Common Law gone out of vogue with latter day jurists, but so is the novel concept that the truly guilty (properly adjudicated) be punished!

I mean, is Corzine in chains?  Is Eric the Gunrunner behind bars?  Has Obama been impeached, convicted and removed?  No.

Are people going to jail and/or being fined for converting a puddle on their property to lawn?  For bringing a pocket knife to school or leaving a hunting rifle in the parking lot?  For failing to see a small nondescript sign saying "Don't do ______?  All the time.

And we have documented the many instances of police overreach and seen numerous examples of sensation-driven politically-motivated DA's running amok.

The rise in the litigious nature of increasingly thin-skinned Americans coupled with general progressive rot and judicial activists running amok has provided fertile (ie-shyt-filled) soil from which all manner of noxious notions are able to gain root and grow unchecked.

We have allowed them to destroy reason, common sense and decency...that we have a perverted and unsustainable system is no surprise.

And our entire political and judicial systems are incapable of rectifying the situation and the populace at present seems terminally ignorant of what to do about it.

So we are left, as with everything else that is occurring around us, to wait for it to all hit the fan.

And hit it will.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: An interesting and IMPORTANT proposal
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2014, 10:41:17 AM »
If overcriminalization is occurring, and I have no doubt that it is, it stands to reason that undercriminialization is also occurring.

Not only has the long time-honored tradition of "the reasonable man" test that has been with us since the advent of English Common Law gone out of vogue with latter day jurists, but so is the novel concept that the truly guilty (properly adjudicated) be punished!

I mean, is Corzine in chains?  Is Eric the Gunrunner behind bars?  Has Obama been impeached, convicted and removed?  No.

Are people going to jail and/or being fined for converting a puddle on their property to lawn?  For bringing a pocket knife to school or leaving a hunting rifle in the parking lot?  For failing to see a small nondescript sign saying "Don't do ______?  All the time.

And we have documented the many instances of police overreach and seen numerous examples of sensation-driven politically-motivated DA's running amok.

The rise in the litigious nature of increasingly thin-skinned Americans coupled with general progressive rot and judicial activists running amok has provided fertile (ie-shyt-filled) soil from which all manner of noxious notions are able to gain root and grow unchecked.

We have allowed them to destroy reason, common sense and decency...that we have a perverted and unsustainable system is no surprise.

And our entire political and judicial systems are incapable of rectifying the situation and the populace at present seems terminally ignorant of what to do about it.

So we are left, as with everything else that is occurring around us, to wait for it to all hit the fan.

And hit it will.

^^^^^^
THAT X10.
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- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Glock32

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Re: An interesting and IMPORTANT proposal
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2014, 10:43:38 AM »
This is one of many reasons I favor an automatic, built-in sunset provision to almost all statutory law. If a law's genuine utility can be clearly articulated and defended, then renewing it during its sunset year should be no difficulty. The BS laws passed so some temporary politician could grandstand, those would be more difficult to renew and they would go to the trash heap where they belong. It also circumvents the gutless timidity of elected representatives by allowing a law to go away without them actively killing it. And the process of review and renewal would occupy a substantial portion of the sitting legislature's time -- time not spent enacting new BS laws.
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Re: An interesting and IMPORTANT proposal
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2014, 11:34:50 AM »
This is one of many reasons I favor an automatic, built-in sunset provision to almost all statutory law. If a law's genuine utility can be clearly articulated and defended, then renewing it during its sunset year should be no difficulty. The BS laws passed so some temporary politician could grandstand, those would be more difficult to renew and they would go to the trash heap where they belong. It also circumvents the gutless timidity of elected representatives by allowing a law to go away without them actively killing it. And the process of review and renewal would occupy a substantial portion of the sitting legislature's time -- time not spent enacting new BS laws.

Fine.  That'll take care of the laws actually passed by legislation, but we also need a mechanism by which all the agency "rules" are negated, particularly those of the EPA.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: An interesting and IMPORTANT proposal
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2014, 11:45:28 AM »
This is one of many reasons I favor an automatic, built-in sunset provision to almost all statutory law. If a law's genuine utility can be clearly articulated and defended, then renewing it during its sunset year should be no difficulty. The BS laws passed so some temporary politician could grandstand, those would be more difficult to renew and they would go to the trash heap where they belong. It also circumvents the gutless timidity of elected representatives by allowing a law to go away without them actively killing it. And the process of review and renewal would occupy a substantial portion of the sitting legislature's time -- time not spent enacting new BS laws.

Fine.  That'll take care of the laws actually passed by legislation, but we also need a mechanism by which all the agency "rules" are negated, particularly those of the EPA.

I call that remedy "lock & load".  Democrats had their "nuclear option".  I raise with the "Founders option"!   ;)
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline warpmine

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Re: An interesting and IMPORTANT proposal
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2014, 11:47:18 AM »
This is one of many reasons I favor an automatic, built-in sunset provision to almost all statutory law. If a law's genuine utility can be clearly articulated and defended, then renewing it during its sunset year should be no difficulty. The BS laws passed so some temporary politician could grandstand, those would be more difficult to renew and they would go to the trash heap where they belong. It also circumvents the gutless timidity of elected representatives by allowing a law to go away without them actively killing it. And the process of review and renewal would occupy a substantial portion of the sitting legislature's time -- time not spent enacting new BS laws.

Fine.  That'll take care of the laws actually passed by legislation, but we also need a mechanism by which all the agency "rules" are negated, particularly those of the EPA.
We have a mechanism in place outlined by Thomas Jefferson, it's called watering the Tree of Liberty but thus far is on it's last leg having the roots cut at the trunk.
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Offline Glock32

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Re: An interesting and IMPORTANT proposal
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2014, 12:02:01 PM »
This is one of many reasons I favor an automatic, built-in sunset provision to almost all statutory law. If a law's genuine utility can be clearly articulated and defended, then renewing it during its sunset year should be no difficulty. The BS laws passed so some temporary politician could grandstand, those would be more difficult to renew and they would go to the trash heap where they belong. It also circumvents the gutless timidity of elected representatives by allowing a law to go away without them actively killing it. And the process of review and renewal would occupy a substantial portion of the sitting legislature's time -- time not spent enacting new BS laws.

Fine.  That'll take care of the laws actually passed by legislation, but we also need a mechanism by which all the agency "rules" are negated, particularly those of the EPA.


I don't know the answer to that one, other than the suggestions already given.  The bureaucracy has become an unofficial 4th branch of government, and it rules by decree.  Check this out, with a hat tip to Western Rifle Shooters Association:


Quote

Via the FB account of US Senator Mike Lee (R-UT), as sent by a WRSA reader:

Behold my display of the 2013 Federal Register. It contains over 80,000 pages of new rules, regulations, and notices all written and passed by unelected bureaucrats. The small stack of papers on top of the display are the laws passed by elected members of Congress and signed into law by the president.

Look again at the picture.

Compare the two piles.

Understand deeply the significance here.

These people are NOT going to stop this madness.

It is all they do.

Know that, and your future is clear.
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Offline richb

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Re: An interesting and IMPORTANT proposal
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2014, 03:03:06 PM »
This is one of many reasons I favor an automatic, built-in sunset provision to almost all statutory law. If a law's genuine utility can be clearly articulated and defended, then renewing it during its sunset year should be no difficulty. The BS laws passed so some temporary politician could grandstand, those would be more difficult to renew and they would go to the trash heap where they belong. It also circumvents the gutless timidity of elected representatives by allowing a law to go away without them actively killing it. And the process of review and renewal would occupy a substantial portion of the sitting legislature's time -- time not spent enacting new BS laws.

Fine.  That'll take care of the laws actually passed by legislation, but we also need a mechanism by which all the agency "rules" are negated, particularly those of the EPA.


I don't know the answer to that one, other than the suggestions already given.  The bureaucracy has become an unofficial 4th branch of government, and it rules by decree.  Check this out, with a hat tip to Western Rifle Shooters Association:


Quote

Via the FB account of US Senator Mike Lee (R-UT), as sent by a WRSA reader:

Behold my display of the 2013 Federal Register. It contains over 80,000 pages of new rules, regulations, and notices all written and passed by unelected bureaucrats. The small stack of papers on top of the display are the laws passed by elected members of Congress and signed into law by the president.

Look again at the picture.

Compare the two piles.

Understand deeply the significance here.

These people are NOT going to stop this madness.

It is all they do.

Know that, and your future is clear.

One of the laziest moves by Congress is allowing these "laws" via regulation.   It should be stopped,  Congress is the only rule making body in the US constitution.   

Regulators should NEVER be involved in the creation of the rules they will be enforcing.   They should have NO say in the process at all.    Would you allow your local police department to create the laws in your town?   No,  that would be crazy,  but yet that's what is happening today in the federal government. 

How are we going to stop it at this point?   No good solution to that question.   

My second point.   The "smaller" pile of bills passed by congress. 

This was the Congress that supposedly did "nothing". 

The pile is still several inches thick.    They still did "plenty"  it seems. 

What we need (once we get the constitution back in charge) is an amendment restricting multi-subject bills,  prohibiting regulation created outside of elected congress,  making most laws in clear English and limiting total bills per year. 

Online benb61

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Re: An interesting and IMPORTANT proposal
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2014, 03:45:32 PM »
This is one of many reasons I favor an automatic, built-in sunset provision to almost all statutory law. If a law's genuine utility can be clearly articulated and defended, then renewing it during its sunset year should be no difficulty. The BS laws passed so some temporary politician could grandstand, those would be more difficult to renew and they would go to the trash heap where they belong. It also circumvents the gutless timidity of elected representatives by allowing a law to go away without them actively killing it. And the process of review and renewal would occupy a substantial portion of the sitting legislature's time -- time not spent enacting new BS laws.

Fine.  That'll take care of the laws actually passed by legislation, but we also need a mechanism by which all the agency "rules" are negated, particularly those of the EPA.


I don't know the answer to that one, other than the suggestions already given.  The bureaucracy has become an unofficial 4th branch of government, and it rules by decree.  Check this out, with a hat tip to Western Rifle Shooters Association:


Quote

Via the FB account of US Senator Mike Lee (R-UT), as sent by a WRSA reader:

Behold my display of the 2013 Federal Register. It contains over 80,000 pages of new rules, regulations, and notices all written and passed by unelected bureaucrats. The small stack of papers on top of the display are the laws passed by elected members of Congress and signed into law by the president.

Look again at the picture.

Compare the two piles.

Understand deeply the significance here.

These people are NOT going to stop this madness.

It is all they do.

Know that, and your future is clear.

One of the laziest moves by Congress is allowing these "laws" via regulation.   It should be stopped,  Congress is the only rule making body in the US constitution.   

Regulators should NEVER be involved in the creation of the rules they will be enforcing.   They should have NO say in the process at all.    Would you allow your local police department to create the laws in your town?   No,  that would be crazy,  but yet that's what is happening today in the federal government. 

How are we going to stop it at this point?   No good solution to that question.   

My second point.   The "smaller" pile of bills passed by congress. 

This was the Congress that supposedly did "nothing". 

The pile is still several inches thick.    They still did "plenty"  it seems. 

What we need (once we get the constitution back in charge) is an amendment restricting multi-subject bills,  prohibiting regulation created outside of elected congress,  making most laws in clear English and limiting total bills per year.

I think a limit on the number of pages and a minimum font size of say 12 pt would help too.
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Online Pandora

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Re: An interesting and IMPORTANT proposal
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2014, 03:56:43 PM »
And a limit on the amount of laws they're permitted *to pass* per year.  And a quota of laws they *must* repeal every year (in addition to the sundowning) ..... and repealing the name of a Post Office doesn't count.
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Offline richb

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Re: An interesting and IMPORTANT proposal
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2014, 04:03:27 PM »
And a limit on the amount of laws they're permitted *to pass* per year.  And a quota of laws they *must* repeal every year (in addition to the sundowning) ..... and repealing the name of a Post Office doesn't count.

And a limited amount of days allowed for a session,  like Texas does.   Heck,  only allow a session once every two years like Texas does.   

Sun setting laws is a good idea too,  as many laws that may have made sense when they pass,  don't many years later.    Emptying out outdated crap is long overdue too.

Offline Libertas

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Re: An interesting and IMPORTANT proposal
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2014, 07:32:21 AM »
For those that made that pile...



We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.