Author Topic: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones  (Read 4148 times)

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Online Pandora

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Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« on: April 23, 2011, 06:32:32 PM »
Despite a judge’s order Pastor Terry Jones vowed to protest outside the Dearborn Islamic Center next week.

Quote
The Hill reported:

    Controversial Florida Pastor Terry Jones said he will follow through on his plan to protest outside an Islamic center in Michigan next week despite a judge’s order to stay away from the mosque for three years, according to a report from the Detroit Free Press.

    Jones had planned to protest against jihad and sharia outside the Islamic Center of America in Dearborn on Friday, the largest mosque in a metro Detroit region that is home to one of nation’s largest populations of Arab-Americans.

    However, Judge Mark Somers ordered Jones and Pastor Wayne Sapp to jail after a jury determined they would likely breach the peace. Somers set a $1 cash bond for Jones and Sapp and ordered them not go to the mosque or adjacent property for three years.


 
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Online IronDioPriest

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Re: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2011, 07:12:26 PM »
When someone exercises their First Amendment right to free speech even as those he protests are exercising their First Amendment right to freely worship, who "breaches the peace" until and unless one or the other of those two parties materially harms the other?

The elephant in the room here is that the Michigan court is attempting to protect Terry Jones from Islam, because the unspoken truth is that nothing will come of his protests until and unless Islamists retaliate. And we all know the name of that tune, don't we. Jones will protest. Islam might breach the peace.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Glock32

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Re: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2011, 07:47:21 PM »
Right. Just like those distributing Christian literature at the Arab street fest there, they were arrested (or told to leave) not because of anything wrong they were doing but because Muslims are incapable of controlling themselves. This is antithetical to our notions of justice. The rights of one should not be restrained because another party readily responds improperly. I can't quite describe just how fundamentally wrongheaded this is. It's a formalization of the PC imperative that you continuously self-edit and self-censor. Terry Jones is not "disturbing the peace", the unhinged reaction of the 'slims is "disturbing the peace".

We're approaching a point where any possibility of redress through official channels is going to be quashed. What do you do when every organ of officialdom is patently incorrect? Suppose for example this case went to the Supreme Court and they upheld it saying the 1st Amendment does not cover any speech that "offends" religious groups (namely one in particular)? That may be unlikely right now, but it could certainly happen in the future. What's the recourse to something like that? Something that flies in the face of what the Constitution clearly and obviously states?
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Offline rickl

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Re: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2011, 08:51:24 PM »
This is antithetical to our notions of justice. The rights of one should not be restrained because another party readily responds improperly. I can't quite describe just how fundamentally wrongheaded this is. It's a formalization of the PC imperative that you continuously self-edit and self-censor.

This is a diabolical form of mind control, and it has become rampant in our society.  The individual is trained to control his own mind.  It begins in the schools and is enforced by actual physical consequences in the day-to-day world (poor grades, loss of job, etc.).
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Offline John Florida

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Re: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2011, 09:12:11 PM »
Despite a judge’s order Pastor Terry Jones vowed to protest outside the Dearborn Islamic Center next week.

Quote
The Hill reported:

    Controversial Florida Pastor Terry Jones said he will follow through on his plan to protest outside an Islamic center in Michigan next week despite a judge’s order to stay away from the mosque for three years, according to a report from the Detroit Free Press.

    Jones had planned to protest against jihad and sharia outside the Islamic Center of America in Dearborn on Friday, the largest mosque in a metro Detroit region that is home to one of nation’s largest populations of Arab-Americans.

    However, Judge Mark Somers ordered Jones and Pastor Wayne Sapp to jail after a jury determined they would likely breach the peace. Somers set a $1 cash bond for Jones and Sapp and ordered them not go to the mosque or adjacent property for three years.


 

 I've only seen one place where future crimes could be prossecuted and that was fiction:

Minority Report Official Trailer

 This real ?
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Offline Sectionhand

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Re: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2011, 05:35:09 AM »
I just wish that the people on our side weren't such high profile whack-jobs like Jones . He's a provocateur .

RickZ

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Re: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2011, 07:07:19 AM »
I just wish that the people on our side weren't such high profile whack-jobs like Jones . He's a provocateur .

I don't know why he has to be 'on our side'.  He is a provacateur, on that I completely agree.  But Thomas Paine was a provacateur, too, not beloved by many sunshine patriots.  I can just hear them saying amongst themselves, 'I just wish that Tom Paine would cool it'.  While I agree with Jones on his right to protest the Dearborn mosque, and even burn the koran, I don't have to agree with it.  If the nazis were allowed to march in Skokie, Illinois, then Terry Jones can protest in Dearborn, Michigan.  It has nothing to do with him being on our side or not.  But if his protest provokes violence, then that helps prove our point about the evil that is inherent in islam.  If he's killed, he's a martyr for the cause of anti-jihad.  But Jones' Constitutional rights of protest and peacable assembly do not stop at the mosque's door.

Online IronDioPriest

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Re: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2011, 07:39:32 AM »
...I can just hear them saying amongst themselves, 'I just wish that Tom Paine would cool it'....

Yip, exactly. Anyone who dares step away from the norms of his time is judged as a troublemaker-provocateur in his own time, but history is their more rightful judge.

On this Easter Sunday, I am reminded of history's most poignant example of how a people scorned and turned against a provocateur who ended up being someone entirely different than the negative influence he appeared to them to be.

We certainly know how the media, the Left, and Islam judge Terry Jones. But we don't know how history will judge him.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Online IronDioPriest

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Well Done, Dearborn
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2011, 09:35:22 AM »
Well Done, Dearborn

Pastor Terry Jones is an asshat. Of that there can be no doubt.

But even asshats have Constitutional rights. In fact, as is often said, protecting the fundamental rights of the worst of us is a vital part of ensuring that the rest of us can enjoy our liberties in peace.

So the fact that Terry Jones was jailed for, essentially, not promising that he wouldn’t hold a protest at a mosque, is unconscionable. Adding insult to injury, Judge Mark Somers ordered him to stay away from said mosque for 3 years, giving the proprietors a veto on his freedoms.

The Supreme Court has called prior restraint “the most serious and the least tolerable infringement on First Amendment rights” Nebraska Press Association v. Stuart (1976) and is presumptively unconstitutional. Prior restraint usually involves publication, rather than actual speech, but the parallels are unmistakable. Judge Somers should have thrown this case out–sua sponte if need be–immediately upon the filing of the indictment. Barring that, he should have held an immediate hearing on the constitutionality of the charges and dismissed it then. Having failed to throw the case out then, he should have entered a directed verdict at the close of the prosecutors’ evidence. Or a judgment notwithstanding the verdict after the jury returned guilty verdicts. But he did none of these things.

Judge Somers did mitigate his errors somewhat by setting bond for Jones and his compatriot at $1, but that is woefully insufficient to make up for everything that went before. The charges against Jones are obviously, patently, incontrovertibly unconstitutional. The entire basis of the indictment is that their planned protest would “likely breach the peace.”

But that is not the standard by which prohibition or punishment of the exercise of free speech is governed. Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969) requires three elements to be met before the state can step in:
[blockquote]The constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.[/blockquote]
Jones’ planned actions don’t even meet the threshold requirement of advocacy of lawlessness. According to Dearborn Police Chief Ronald Haddad, “there have been at least four serious threats made against Jones from metro Detroiters… his protest could lead to violence if allowed.” Brandenburg allows for prohibition or punishment of incitement to lawlessness where one advocates imminent unlawful action that is likely to produce it. But here it was the prospect that his protest might cause a violent reaction by the targets of his protest, not his supporters, that the state used to justify their prior restraint of Jones’ First Amendment rights. There is simply no possible way to justify this prosecution.

This case won’t have to go all the way to the Supreme Court. Michigan’s appellate court should vacate the convictions immediately. And then Pastor Jones will get to file his 1983 action and be entitled to damages from the state. All of which will do nothing but increase his media exposure and generate sympathy for his asshattery.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

charlesoakwood

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Re: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2011, 10:12:52 AM »

My kind are easily aroused. While driving and approaching a controlled intersection, especially  those unholy red lights, we lose all self control and our right foot uncontrollably slams  the accelerator to the floor.   Therefore it is our right to run the light. All other traffic must submit to our right of way or be subject to the force of law.  So sayeth the law of the protected class.

 How dare you expect us to bend to your pagan laws and customs.


Offline John Florida

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Re: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2011, 10:39:17 AM »
I just wish that the people on our side weren't such high profile whack-jobs like Jones . He's a provocateur .

   What high profile?? This guy runs at best a micro church and the only reason he's lasted longer than 15 minutes is that the LSM and in this case Fox made him famous. Were he a leftwinger we would be hard pressed to find anything on this man and his church.

  Why hasn't Barnhardt been on the news? What she did made this guy into a kinder Gardner and yet all the Media is afraid to go near her. The guy is and was a nobody.Ans just as a matter of fact I'm willing to have the debate about this guy during the Campaign any day of the week.
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Re: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2011, 11:06:37 AM »
What the court decided in Jones' case is bullsh*t and all I have to do to prove it is to point at the Westboro Baptist freaks.

They've been allowed to get away with the most egregious of public behaviors under cover of their right to "freedom of speech" and the only conclusion that can be drawn from a comparison of the two cases is it is the most violent and radical of reactions to provocative "speech" that is now protected by the "rule of law".
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charlesoakwood

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Re: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2011, 11:23:07 AM »

Not you whitey.


RickZ

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Re: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2011, 11:36:40 AM »
I think the point is that this court used for guidance 'foreign law', that is shari'a:  Freedom of speech as long as muslims are not offended.  Miss Lindsey (@sshat-SC) will be so proud.

Offline sablegsd

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Re: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2011, 05:48:52 PM »
I just wish that the people on our side weren't such high profile whack-jobs like Jones . He's a provocateur .

Good for him.  Maybe he will wake some of the enabling dhimmis up from their cocoon of stupidity.  Go Pastor Jones! 
He is NOT a whack job.  The koranimals and their dhimmi appeasers are whack jobs.

So when he exercises his rights and the koranimals go on a violent, bloody riot, they should all be shot in the head like the rabid animals they are.
Why are we still letting these insane douche nozzles come here?

Offline Sectionhand

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Re: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2011, 03:45:29 AM »
I just wish that the people on our side weren't such high profile whack-jobs like Jones . He's a provocateur .

   What high profile?? This guy runs at best a micro church and the only reason he's lasted longer than 15 minutes is that the LSM and in this case Fox made him famous. Were he a leftwinger we would be hard pressed to find anything on this man and his church.

  Why hasn't Barnhardt been on the news? What she did made this guy into a kinder Gardner and yet all the Media is afraid to go near her. The guy is and was a nobody.Ans just as a matter of fact I'm willing to have the debate about this guy during the Campaign any day of the week.

We most certainly allow the Left to identify us with whack jobs like Jones and yes ... he most certainly is high profile . His BS went viral on the net and found it's way to the other side of the world where a bunch of animals used it as an excuse to engage in their favorite past-time ... murder and mayhem .

Oh ... And I don't see where the Tom Paine analogy fits here .

Offline Libertas

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Re: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2011, 06:59:11 AM »
I'm not getting the Islam & mosques are off limits thingy and the comparison to the whack job leftists WBC clowns seems appropriate.  Perhaps the only way to even the playing field with the Islamic bastards is to start slaughtering their kind whenever any Christian is attacked or murdered or any Christian site is attacked or protested any where in the world.  Fair is fair damnit!  Look how many Christians and Jews keep getting slaughtered around the globe by these freaking animals!  Time to settle accounts!
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

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Re: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2011, 08:37:59 AM »
I just wish that the people on our side weren't such high profile whack-jobs like Jones . He's a provocateur .

   What high profile?? This guy runs at best a micro church and the only reason he's lasted longer than 15 minutes is that the LSM and in this case Fox made him famous. Were he a leftwinger we would be hard pressed to find anything on this man and his church.

  Why hasn't Barnhardt been on the news? What she did made this guy into a kinder Gardner and yet all the Media is afraid to go near her. The guy is and was a nobody.Ans just as a matter of fact I'm willing to have the debate about this guy during the Campaign any day of the week.

We most certainly allow the Left to identify us with whack jobs like Jones and yes ... he most certainly is high profile . His BS went viral on the net and found it's way to the other side of the world where a bunch of animals used it as an excuse to engage in their favorite past-time ... murder and mayhem .

Oh ... And I don't see where the Tom Paine analogy fits here .
Jones is only high profile because the Left has chosen him as the conservative mascot agitator of Islam. They have done so because he is a caricature, and an inarticulate defender of his actions. He is easy to portray as a rube.

Libertas makes a good point. Why hasn't Ann Barnhardt's far more provocative, articulate, and scathing rebuke of Islam gone viral? Clearly this woman's words and deeds are exponentially more agitating. If Terry Jones is attempting to fire an arrow at the heart of Islam, Ann Barnhardt has detonated a series of Daisy-Cutters in her effort to draw their attention her way.

But Ann has not gone viral beyond the conservative blogosphere, and we need to ask why. Instead of being embarrassed at "our side", we need to ask, "why should we be embarrassed at the actions of one man who the media insists represents 'our side', when the media has clearly chosen the weakest representative of our beliefs as our mascot?"
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 10:04:19 AM by IronDioPriest »
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

RickZ

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Re: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2011, 08:47:14 AM »
But Ann has not gone viral beyond the conservative blogosphere, and we need to ask why. Instead of being embarrassed at "our side", we need to ask, "why should we be embarrassed at the actions of one man who the media insists represents 'our side', when the media has clearly chosen the weakest representative of our beliefs as our mascot?"

They are consistent, I'll give them that.  They always strive to pick the weakest presidential candidate for our side, too.

Offline Libertas

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Re: Dearbornistan Part II - Terry Jones
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2011, 08:48:04 AM »
Amen IDP!

And the reason is obvious...Ann doesn't back down and is fully capable of defending her position, she scares the shyt out of the left and they do not want to elevate her into the awareness of the general public.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.