Author Topic: Greeks vs Persians  (Read 2844 times)

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Offline whimsicalmamapig

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Greeks vs Persians
« on: July 28, 2014, 09:30:06 AM »
I was reading a history of the Persian Wars recently and I came to me that the "Right" in American culture represents the Greek ideology in that they value freedom and individuality, whereas the "lefties" better represent the Eastern or Persian view and thus illustrate that continued antagonism between the west and the east.

Otanes proffered the concept of democracy to the Persians as a possible structure for their government but he was defeated by Darius who favored a strong monarchy as his argument was that strong central government had always been the way of Eastern governments so why change.

If we analyze the position of the "Right" in the founding ideology of our nation we see that the Greek concepts of freedom and individuality were paramount. 

When considering the ideology of the liberal/left we see a tendency towards the eastern proclivity of a strong central government with little respect for individual freedom and an expected acquiescence towards the power of the state.
(I see this manifest primarily through the influences of the influx of socialist ideology that entered the nation as the flotsam of refugees fleeing the end of WWI)

This age old battle between the west and the east is reaching levels of enmity in our culture, comparable to that which engendered the Persian Wars.
Darius wanted to claim the entire world as his possession and the only thing standing in his way were those recalcitrant Greeks who were constantly quarreling among themselves but who would, when needed, join together to protect their freedoms.

My question is this: do we have enough "Greeks" left in America to withstand an onslaught of Eastern ideology or have these easterners so infiltrated our culture that the concepts of freedom and individuality been overridden by an ideology of subservience to the state and a reverence for absolute government control.  Can all the different "Greek" factions in America come together at this critical point.

Are we now Persians?
Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Offline AmericanPatriot

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Re: Greeks vs Persians
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2014, 10:56:38 AM »
300?

Offline whimsicalmamapig

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Re: Greeks vs Persians
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2014, 11:04:06 AM »
I would hope that we would not need to rely on those 300 Spartans. While they were Gung Ho and all that, they were not very reliable partners, sort of like the libertarians, way out there and you never knew which way they would swing.
Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Offline Libertas

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Re: Greeks vs Persians
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2014, 11:52:16 AM »
I object to being called a Greek or a Persian!  Our Founders feared the mob rule of Greek democracy as much as the authoritarian rule of Persia, Rome or England!  It is why they chose to create a republic with checks and balances and the rule of law and respect of persons and property...sure all that latter stuff is being obliterated, but the distinction and intent is important...

As to the analogy, I would rather be Spartan than any of the others if that is the case, our Founders were not wimps, they did not postpone the Revolution because, gosh, it was just too hard and too much to take on right now, and jeez I would really like to suck off the British teat a bit more and gather my strength before I throw off my chains, and...

Screw it, unleash the dogs of war already!
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline whimsicalmamapig

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Re: Greeks vs Persians
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2014, 12:06:52 PM »
Cleisthenes gave the greeks a representative form of government, it was not mob rule, and as to the spartans, they were asked to assist at the battle of Marathon but they declined since it was the 9th day of the month and they would not fight until the full moon, so much for their dependability.

The analogy is that there are basically 2 concepts of government that have evolved in the human species, the greek and the persian and the question is: are we transforming what was a greek inspired government based on individualism and freedom into a persian system that requires obedience to the state and a submission of the concept of individual freedom for the betterment of the state?

I think we are more than half way to that transformation and that is what obama is all about.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 12:26:06 PM by whimsicalmamapig »
Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Greeks vs Persians
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2014, 12:54:21 PM »
The analogy is that there are basically 2 concepts of government that have evolved in the human species, the greek and the persian and the question is: are we transforming what was a greek inspired government based on individualism and freedom into a persian system that requires obedience to the state and an submission of the concept of individual freedom for the betterment of the state?

Quote
“They are the arguments that kings have made for enslaving the people in all ages of the world. You will find that all the arguments in favor of king-craft were of this class; they always bestrode the necks of the people, not that they wanted to do it, but because the people were better off for being ridden. That is their argument, and this argument of the Judge is the same old serpent that says you work and I eat, you toil and I will enjoy the fruits of it. Turn in whatever way you will, whether it come from the mouth of a King, an excuse for enslaving the people of this country, or from the mouth of men of one race as a reason for enslaving the men of another race, it is all the same old serpent, and I hold if that course of argumentation that is made for the purpose of convincing the public mind that we should not care about this, should be granted, it does not stop with the negro. I should like to know if, taking this old Declaration of Independence, which declares that all men are equal upon principle, and making exceptions to it, where will it stop? If one man says it does not mean a negro, why not another say it does not mean some other man? If that declaration is not the truth, let us get the Statute book, in which we find it, and tear it out! Who is so bold as to do it? If it is not true let us tear it out! [Cries of “No, No.”] Let us stick to it, then; let us stand firmly by it, then.”- Abraham Lincoln at the  Lincoln Douglas Debates.

The "Persian" group are  are tribal animals and desperately desire the security and group responsibility of the herd.  It could be a genetic component or simply a matter of gender- or both.  However,  societies dominated by female power and decision making tend this way - especially  if those societies  are Democratic in nature.  They want to be nurtured and cared for , and they have NO PROBLEM  what-so-ever using force to obtain that goal.  Nearly all tribal societies ( including the "noble Savage" American Indian)  took and kept slaves from other tribes.

The "Greek" group is masculine in nature.  They value risk and individualism. This, if left unchecked, results is a lot of wars, adventurism and women being treated as property 

This isn't to say individual women or men can't value one system or the other,  only that as groups and in aggregate -  Women value security over freedom and will vote accordingly. Men value risk-taking and personal initiative - control over one's own destiny.  It becomes a Barbarian culture of conquest and violence.

IN a functioning civilization,  Men,  are ( and must be) socialized (by women) to help and protect women will  tend go along with the female desire for security--  and as a result there is a built in bias toward the feminine in democratic systems in which women have voting rights. .  ( I don't think its any accident that the species on the planet that have "hive minds" like bees and ants have a Queen as central to the colony  and not a male. ) 

In any democratic system in which women participate the feminine will dominate and  individualism and freedom will falter and die.  The war on men and masculinity is no accident - it is implicit in the battle between the two forms of government. Female Hypergamy is nothing but the desire to be cared for - and why woman  typically only "marry up"  If they marry down they get "responsibility" as the primary breadwinner and not "choices"  - to work full time, part time or be a full time wife and mother.  They do not, as a group, want the personal responsibility for being the primary breadwinner and provider. They want another entity to do that - be it a husband, a church, a community, a government or a slave.
Nor is it any accident that   the large ( and stupid)  changes that occurred in our govt at the beginning of the last century were lead by and championed by Women.  Prohibition, the Formation of the Fed, the suffragettes , income tax, and the the popular election of senators all happened during a time when women were dominant forces in public discourse.

At its most fundamental  level this battle is the one the Chinese have observed between Yin and Yang.  When these two forces get out of balance, bad things occur. Women must and should be dominant in certain area of our lives, and men should be dominant in others ( and no I would not support strict boundaries or prohibitions on those areas - but  I think this division will occur naturally if men and women are simply allowed to follow their own inclinations vs being manipulated every day of their lives into believing in fairy tales by propaganda and other attempts at social engineering by evil people trying to manipulate the two sides for their own personal gain




Offline whimsicalmamapig

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Re: Greeks vs Persians
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2014, 01:18:48 PM »
I have been reading "A Troublesome Inheritance" by Nicholas Wade in which he acknowledges that there is considerable research being done in genetics that does not receive much attention because to do so would invite the PC police into the academic community, but it reveals that there has been continual evolution of the 5 major race groups since their diaspora from africa some 50 thousand years ago and that there are certain indications that due to pressures such as environment and group dynamics certain races have developed proclivities towards certain types of group behavior that may be genetic. They cite the tough environment of ice age Europe as one pressure motivating towards the dynamics of interpersonal relationships and cooperation between separate but equal tribes in times of environmental pressure.

I will refrain from more of Mr Wade but he is a good read, but I think there may be reasons that the west, which became agricultural much later than the east, could have a predisposition towards individualism rather than the monarchical societies required of such large group endeavors such as large scale agriculture and the creation of infrastructures required for such.
Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Offline Libertas

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Re: Greeks vs Persians
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2014, 06:54:05 AM »
Cleisthenes gave the greeks a representative form of government, it was not mob rule, and as to the spartans, they were asked to assist at the battle of Marathon but they declined since it was the 9th day of the month and they would not fight until the full moon, so much for their dependability.

The analogy is that there are basically 2 concepts of government that have evolved in the human species, the greek and the persian and the question is: are we transforming what was a greek inspired government based on individualism and freedom into a persian system that requires obedience to the state and a submission of the concept of individual freedom for the betterment of the state?

I think we are more than half way to that transformation and that is what obama is all about.

IIRC the "Father of Democracy" also established ostracism for those deemed "a threat to democracy", the first Patriot Act if you will.  And the Classical period of Greece gave way at the death of Alexander who allowed only so much democracy and whose death ushered in the fragmented and internecine warfare plagued Hellenistic period that allowed the former city states to be absorbed by more aggressive parties, notably the Romans.  I do not ascribe to the notion that more democracy is a good thing and while it has been the general history of mankind to suffer under the rule of Omnipotent state power centralized in one or a few, in modern times people can suffer tyranny under democracy as well, as the Founders knew and people like Alexis de Tocqueville warned us about.  It would be impossible to see all at once who is responsible for our decline into chaos, as a start all we have to do is look all around us.

PS - I like your take Weisshaupt and I endorse your closing paragraph.   ::thumbsup::
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline richb

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Re: Greeks vs Persians
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2014, 05:48:03 PM »
It's no accident leftist's like bits from eastern society.    Yoga may be harmless,  but there are plenty of horrible eastern traditions I hope can be beaten down. 

Offline Libertas

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Re: Greeks vs Persians
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2014, 06:47:55 AM »
Leftists don't think beyond their emoting/gratification desires...what they like they take, what they don't they ignore and what they fear or don't understand they blame on others...

We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.