Author Topic: Cops are going to only have themselves to blame if citizens begin to hunt them  (Read 2570 times)

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Offline IronDioPriest

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The cops in this country need to take a good hard look at how they're interfacing with the public, or people are going to naturally begin hunting them. Every police department needs to put the hammer down on this behavior, or they're only gonna have themselves to blame.

Video: Cop shoots driver for following his instructions - no, really
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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Online Weisshaupt

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The cops in this country need to take a good hard look at how they're interfacing with the public, or people are going to naturally begin hunting them. Every police department needs to put the hammer down on this behavior, or they're only gonna have themselves to blame.

Video: Cop shoots driver for following his instructions - no, really

Now see.. THAT is police brutality.  He moved a little too quickly while going for the license, so I could understand the officer perhaps drawing his weapon. But firing before actually SEEING a weapon is bullspit. This cop  needs to spend time in jail.


Offline AlanS

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Groubert’s been charged with assault and battery of a high and aggravated nature, a felony that could land him 20 years in prison. He was fired from the state highway patrol on Friday.

Seems like the popo don't like that behavior either.
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Offline trapeze

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Now see.. THAT is police brutality.  He moved a little too quickly while going for the license, so I could understand the officer perhaps drawing his weapon. But firing before actually SEEING a weapon is bullspit. This cop  needs to spend time in jail.

What I found particularly disturbing was that at least one of the shots that was fired came after the "suspect" had his hands up over his head. Also: the first shot fired might have been in the "suspect's" back.

My take on this is that it is the triumph of the dash cam. Were it not for the dash cam this story would very likely have had a different outcome. As it is, the officer has been fired and also charged with felony assault, a charge that has a possibility of a 20 year sentence. A vest cam would have been even more enlightening but the dash cam was enough to capture virtually all of the shooting, the behavior and dialogue of the "suspect" and the officer.

My other feelings (after having seen the video several times) is that this law enforcement officer has either been poorly trained (and I mean really, really poorly trained) or he is an idiot or both.

Here is a tactical and legal analysis from Andrew Bacca at LegalInsurrection:

Quote
It’s important to remember that reasonable errors are allowed under the law of self-defense.  The question is whether Groubert’s conduct was that of a reasonable and prudent person under the same or similar circumstances, possessing the same or similar capabilities, training, and knowledge.

(For example, the situation would be an entirely different one if Groubert had pulled Edward over on a felony warrant stating Edward was armed and dangerous.  That is not, of course, the case here, as Edward was pulled over for a seatbelt violation.)

On the other hand, if Groubert’s training or experience reinforced in his mind that motions of the type and speed made by Edward are to be interpreted as a suspect reaching for a weapon, that would obviously contribute the the reasonableness of Groubert’s conduct.

An important factor that may help defense counsel Giese spin a favorable narrative for the jury is the swiftness with which Edward turned back into his vehicle–some might say lunged back into the vehicle.  Doing so is not, of course, a crime, especially when it appears it was in direct response to Groubert’s demand for identification.  Nevertheless, it seems very much identical to the motion a dangerous suspect would make if reaching for a weapon.

Also favorable to Groubert, I think, is his demeanor immediately before and after the shooting, in which he demonstrated no unusually aggressive conduct or apparent malice.  It was, to all appearances, a routine traffic stop until Groubert perceived—reasonably or not, the jury will decide—Edward lunging back into his vehicle for a weapon.

I also believe that this is an outlier, that this is not typical of law enforcement either locally or nationally. However, I do  believe that law enforcement has ALWAYS attracted a certain percentage of people who have an axe to grind from an inferiority-complex mindset. I can't tell you the number of law enforcement people I have run into who are inordinately abusive and are also physically short in stature...connection? Yeah, I think so. That's one example that's kind of easy to spot and from which a connection can be drawn. That is not to say that all short law enforcement officers have an attitude problem, that would be untrue and unfair. But a lot do. Again, just one example that I can easily point to.

But I don't think that this is the norm. Not by any stretch of the imagination. This particular guy is just plain stupid and/or poorly trained.

In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.

Offline robins111

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We see that paranoid mindset here in Canada also, where a take-down of a couple of kids with an airsoft or squirt guns, is completed with an entire tac unit.  This kinda $hit is gonna continue till the people start shooting back big time.

Offline IronDioPriest

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Trap's right, it's not the norm. But the shoot first mentality is certainly becoming more commonplace. Either that, or the availability of information on the Internet is creating awareness of something that always existed. Either way, the cops are walking on dangerous ground.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Online ToddF

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This is more clear cut than the WalMart video, that's for sure.

When the cops got there, the guy had stopped, and was just standing in a corner of the store.  They just ran in and shot him.

BUT

Prior to that, the guy was walking around the store, freaking people out while holding the BB gun.

Maybe it would be for the best if you police didn't ban smart people from becoming cops?

Offline Libertas

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Yeah, you know what the cop on the edge is going to take away from this?  Don't leave your victims alive and block the camera out.

You know a lot of those bad apples are thinking that!

Outlier?  Maybe.  But I think the LEO-citizen dynamic is still on a negative trajectory, throwing one into prison won't slow the trend.

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Offline richb

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I think a lot of people believe that most police have gotten far more training then they have.   Most police,  in my experience,  shouldn't be allowed to carry guns,  until they have been trained far better.   Frankly some shouldn't be armed at all.  Most are poor to lousy shots,  which is a recipe for major problems. 

And the us vs. them mindset has become more of a problem.   That needs to be contained. 

Military equipment is a bad idea too. 

Offline Alphabet Soup

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I do appreciate the fact that the police chief reviewed the tape and promptly fired the cop. And then the prosecutor reviewed the tape and promptly charged him. Whether or not he sees jail time (IMO he should) at least this time the establishment responded appropriately.

Offline BigAlSouth

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I say this only in mitigation of his punishment, but the cop was shot at first by a perp in 2012. Could explain his clear over-reaction. Now, before everybody gets too excited, I saw a video someone posted on Legal Insurrection where a guy pulled a rifle out of his truck and shot a deputy dead in about 5 seconds.

At the least, he should lose his LEO credentials. I'm a bit conflicted on the punishment at this point.
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Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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I say this only in mitigation of his punishment, but the cop was shot at first by a perp in 2012. Could explain his clear over-reaction. Now, before everybody gets too excited, I saw a video someone posted on Legal Insurrection where a guy pulled a rifle out of his truck and shot a deputy dead in about 5 seconds.

At the least, he should lose his LEO credentials. I'm a bit conflicted on the punishment at this point.

I UNDERSTAND the fear one faces in arresting those who CHOOSE to break the law. Before my first arrest I physically shook and shivered. I have been very proud to never have to hurt anyone, and that no one has ever hurt me, but the average officer does not have as much control of the situation.  I do not envy law enforcement.

I was taught, years ago, as a toddler, how to make a law enforcement officer FEEL safe, so that WE would BE safe.  I do not understand that everyone does not get this in their basic make-up.
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
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