Topic: On Pistol Rounds

[trapeze]

Came across this article last night on the AoS ONT. It's from a gun blog called LooseRounds and it quotes an FBI report on pistol rounds, stopping power and the new trend to go back to 9mm as the round of choice for law enforcement...

While some law enforcement agencies have transitioned to larger calibers from the 9mm Luger in recent years, they do so at the expense of reduced magazine capacity, more felt recoil, and given adequate projectile selection, no discernible increase in terminal performance.

Other law enforcement organizations seem to be making the move back to 9mm Luger taking advantage of the new technologies which are being applied to 9mm Luger projectiles. These organizations are providing their armed personnel the best chance of surviving a deadly force encounter since they can expect faster and more accurate shot strings, higher magazine capacities (similar sized weapons) and all of the terminal performance which can be expected from any law enforcement caliber projectile.

I still like my .40SW more than any other pistol I've ever fired. I think a lot of it comes down to practice and training. Get properly trained and then commit to practice a lot. The report talks about the very low on-target percentage of the average law enforcement officer...

Shot placement is paramount and law enforcement officers on average strike an adversary with only 20 – 30 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident. Given the reality that shot placement is paramount (and difficult to achieve given the myriad of variables present in a deadly force encounter) in obtaining effective incapacitation, the caliber used must maximize the likelihood of hitting vital organs. Typical law enforcement shootings result in only one or two solid torso hits on the adversary. This requires that any projectile which strikes the torso has as high a probability as possible of penetrating deeply enough to disrupt a vital organ.

They go on to say that the 9mm has a better chance of improving an officer's on-target percentage because of lower felt recoil. Also mentioned is the larger mag capacity of a 9mm pistol. Still...practice is the key.

Read the whole thing and then...thoughts?
 

[IronDioPriest]

I have three carry weapons: S&W Sigma 9mm for open carry (which I don't do often at all), S&W M&P 9mm for IWB carry, and S&W .38 snubnose for pocket carry, which is what I most often use.

But my very favorite pistol to shoot is my Taurus PT .45ACP. Yeah, I know, Taurus. But the trigger pull is beautiful; the recoil is more than manageable; the report is a nice heavy "thud" that really feels connected to the performance of the gun; the grip is perfect for my hand; and I can shoot accurate as hell with it. If I could practically carry a weapon of its size, I would.

[Libertas]

By their own penetration criteria all those rounds are performing to spec then, and the slamming of stopping power is going to cause a big debate, especially with those who favor heavier rounds, just because they don't know how to quantify it (which is pure BS!) doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Maybe we could test in human trials and end that debate once and for all, we have lots of scumbags running around DC to test on.  And I had a suspicion that this is being driven by volume not quality, the latter they pay lip service to in their so-called testing, which if I had to guess (since they do not say) was heavily weighted with long-time 9mm afficionados who performed crappy with the higher calibers...seeing as most cops like quantity over quality, they simply want to have LEOs carry more rounds. 

And lo and behold deeper into the article is this -

"Shot placement is paramount and law enforcement officers on average strike an adversary with only 20 – 30 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident. Given the reality that shot placement is paramount (and difficult to achieve given the myriad of variables present in a deadly force encounter) in obtaining effective incapacitation, the caliber used must maximize the likelihood of hitting vital organs. Typical law enforcement shootings result in only one or two solid torso hits on the adversary. This requires that any projectile which strikes the torso has as high a probability as possible of penetrating deeply enough to disrupt a vital organ.
 
The Ballistic Research Facility has conducted a test which compares similar sized Glock pistols in both .40 S&W and 9mm calibers, to determine if more accurate and faster hits are achievable with one versus the other. To date, the majority of the study participants have shot more quickly and more accurately with 9mm caliber Glock pistols. The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters."

I think they ginned this whole thing up just to get LEOs more rounds and if the accuracy comes fine, but there is no way you can tell me a competent shooter in .357, .40 or .45 or 10mm is less accurate, less quick or any less terminal, it simply does not pass the smell, sense or any other test!

Now, why would they want LEOs to want more rounds, hmmm?

All part of the larger mosaic if you ask me!

[AlanS]

Most folks I know use the +P in handgun defense loads. Just a little extra "umph" for the lead.

[Glock32]

Things have dramatically changed over the past 20 years.  The design of hollow point bullets since the early/mid 90s has really become a new state of the art.  The composition of the lead alloy, mechanical features of the jacket, and bonding between jacket and core have resulted in some very effective designs.  The 9mm has probably benefited from this more than any other cartridge.  I have no qualms at all about carrying a 9mm.

I don't think there's anything nefarious about police departments apparently trending to the 9mm again.  I see it as more of the "what's old is new" phenomenon, well that and the tendency of the Military-Security-Industrial Complex to funnel taxpayer dollars into the latest shiny whizzbang.  In contradiction to this trend among police agencies, there's talk of the Army wanting to move to a new handgun caliber, probably going back to .45 or possibly the .40.  What the military should really do is move away from FMJ in pistols and submachine guns.  We never signed onto those restrictions in the Hague Convention that prohibit deforming bullets.

I like my Glock 32 in 357 SIG, but is it really that much better than 9mm +P with the same type of bullet?  Probably not much.  For whatever ballistic improvement it gives, I'm giving up magazine capacity and the ammo is a lot more expensive.

[Libertas]

Things have dramatically changed over the past 20 years.  The design of hollow point bullets since the early/mid 90s has really become a new state of the art.  The composition of the lead alloy, mechanical features of the jacket, and bonding between jacket and core have resulted in some very effective designs.  The 9mm has probably benefited from this more than any other cartridge.  I have no qualms at all about carrying a 9mm.

I don't think there's anything nefarious about police departments apparently trending to the 9mm again.  I see it as more of the "what's old is new" phenomenon, well that and the tendency of the Military-Security-Industrial Complex to funnel taxpayer dollars into the latest shiny whizzbang.  In contradiction to this trend among police agencies, there's talk of the Army wanting to move to a new handgun caliber, probably going back to .45 or possibly the .40.  What the military should really do is move away from FMJ in pistols and submachine guns.  We never signed onto those restrictions in the Hague Convention that prohibit deforming bullets.

I like my Glock 32 in 357 SIG, but is it really that much better than 9mm +P with the same type of bullet?  Probably not much.  For whatever ballistic improvement it gives, I'm giving up magazine capacity and the ammo is a lot more expensive.

I agree the HP tech has come a long way, and while it would be sensible for the military to get away from FMJ in pistols and short-barreled long guns, given the direction things are going I have no problem them staying as is.

As to the rest...I take it you are not giving up your G32?  Like my G21, you have to have around 13 rounds of that in a mag, is having 4 more rounds of 9mm really going to make or break a situation?

[John Florida]

  Love my .40

[Glock32]

As to the rest...I take it you are not giving up your G32?  Like my G21, you have to have around 13 rounds of that in a mag, is having 4 more rounds of 9mm really going to make or break a situation?

Oh no, I'm not giving up the G32.  In fact I just ordered a new IWB holster for it (I'm finally going to try one of the $30 Alien Gear holsters everyone raves about).  It will be sharing CCW duty with my S&W Shield (9mm).

The G32 holds 13+1, so it's still plenty of medicine.  The same size 9mm pistol (G19) holds 15+1.  One thing that bugs me about the 357 SIG is that most ammo companies won't load it to its real potential.  It was specifically designed to closely duplicate the performance of 125 grain loads from the .357 Magnum, only in a semiautomatic pistol.  Most ammo companies are only loading it to about 1300 fps though, and it should really be about 150 fps faster to approximate the classic .357 Magnum.

[warpmine]

As to the rest...I take it you are not giving up your G32?  Like my G21, you have to have around 13 rounds of that in a mag, is having 4 more rounds of 9mm really going to make or break a situation?

Oh no, I'm not giving up the G32.  In fact I just ordered a new IWB holster for it (I'm finally going to try one of the $30 Alien Gear holsters everyone raves about).  It will be sharing CCW duty with my S&W Shield (9mm).

The G32 holds 13+1, so it's still plenty of medicine.  The same size 9mm pistol (G19) holds 15+1.  One thing that bugs me about the 357 SIG is that most ammo companies won't load it to its real potential.  It was specifically designed to closely duplicate the performance of 125 grain loads from the .357 Magnum, only in a semiautomatic pistol.  Most ammo companies are only loading it to about 1300 fps though, and it should really be about 150 fps faster to approximate the classic .357 Magnum.

That's because many really don't want the added kick that extra powder charge would give you. Same thing with the 10mm, most loads are exactly the same as the .40 S&W. Try Underwood Ammo, they'll load to it's potential but it will cost you a few extra $

[Alphabet Soup]

  Love my .40

Love my .40's   ;')

[Glock32]

Interestingly, I just stumbled upon a very similar article at Handguns magazine that reiterates a lot of the points we've made in this thread.  In particular, I think this bit about the improvements in powder explains a lot:

Modern powders don’t just offer low flash but also increased velocities (without a dangerous increase in pressure) compared with what was available just a few short years ago, not to mention improved consistency, which translates to increased accuracy. While this increased velocity gets more attention on the rifle ammunition side of the aisle, the fact is that a lot of .380 ammo is now moving as fast as a 9mm used to, and some 9mm offerings post velocities only previously seen with .357 Magnum ammo.

Read more: http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammo/6-reasons-modern-defensive-ammo-better-ever

[Libertas]

Interestingly, I just stumbled upon a very similar article at Handguns magazine that reiterates a lot of the points we've made in this thread.  In particular, I think this bit about the improvements in powder explains a lot:

Modern powders don’t just offer low flash but also increased velocities (without a dangerous increase in pressure) compared with what was available just a few short years ago, not to mention improved consistency, which translates to increased accuracy. While this increased velocity gets more attention on the rifle ammunition side of the aisle, the fact is that a lot of .380 ammo is now moving as fast as a 9mm used to, and some 9mm offerings post velocities only previously seen with .357 Magnum ammo.

Read more: http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammo/6-reasons-modern-defensive-ammo-better-ever

Betweeen that and the bullets etc as the article states...it probably explains why cops and security people now don't mind stashing a .380 in their pocket or strapped to their ankle as a back up.