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What if God is Liberal?

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IronDioPriest:
Even Mother Teresa had doubts that surfaced during darker times in her long life. I'd say that on the spectrum of faith in God/Christianity, she was at the tippy-top end of it.

Knowing what we know about how she lived her life, if she could have lingering doubts and moments that tried her faith, how much more will those doubts and trials challenge us?

For that matter, Jesus Christ had His moment of feeling forsaken by God. I'm sure He snapped-to quicker than anyone, but He shows us that times of doubt in God's plan is an intrinsic part of faith.

AlanS:

--- Quote from: Pandora on November 10, 2014, 01:12:55 PM ---Although I have gotten very angry at God, in a way, that is comforting to me in that it reaffirms my faith that He IS there, because I have had periods of doubt when I asked myself the same hard questions that you do.


--- End quote ---

I don't think a person alive hasn't been angry with Him at one time or another. With my children and especially the way the world is going down the tubes.

The most I ever ask of Him is the strength to deal with it every day.

Weisshaupt:
This is the Neanderthal Guy from the r/K thread.
And I found this discussion interesting.
I clicked upon it largely because it seemed it may be relevant to this thread due to the Mustard Seed reference, and  it surely is
I am still chewing on it myself, but I would be interested in hearing other comments.

Faith of a Mustard Seed - Koan update

ChrstnHsbndFthr:
There are a great deal of questions there, more than even a verbose fellow such as myself can answer, but let me hit some highlights, if you will.

True, I once thought faith was a decision, but I no longer believe it so. One either is given faith, by grace, or one is not.  Though I have often expressed it as a choice to believe, it is actually a decision whether to translate our belief into action. I can no more decide to believe I can fly than I can actually fly.  But, it is entirely possible to believe one can run and still refuse to do so, as I am living proof of that myself.  Therefore one could believe that there is a God, that He is the one we are told of in the bible, that the teachings make moral sense, and still refuse to implement them in one's own life.  This is what James called a dead faith, for faith without works is dead.

Now the explanation of Savior and why that is necessary is more complex still. God is unchanging and unalterably good. He makes clear and reveals His nature to us through His Word and He is glorified by mankind, as He shows His mercy and goodness to us.  God cannot accept sin without penalty, because that would make sin acceptable, and would thereby alter the nature of God.  But, in His grace and mercy, He pays the penalty for us. Sin still has a consequence. It is not free. It is not acceptable. But, WE do not pay the price, because we cannot. Without God arranging the Savior, a perfect and sinless sacrifice, there could be no salvation.  God maintains His nature, which is love and goodness, and His children have the free gift of salvation, just as a child cannot pay the price for the broken window, the Father must pay, but the children must be aware of the cost and must learn from it. They must learn not to cost the Father and Christians attempt not to cost the Savior. 

(There is a big discussion of God living outside of time, which is a created thing, and the crucifixion being a constant thing, but that gets pretty distended.

The issue of one Way, is a scriptural concept.  He teaches us to seek and we will find.  I view that as a promise. He does not teach us to follow denominations, which is a modern was of saying divisions, in fact He teaches against that.  Follow Christ. Simple enough in my book. Will I make errors in my reading and understanding? Certainly. But, ours is a great and merciful God. I look to the example of Abraham, who had faith in God and was accounted as righteous, even though he was wrong in his thinking about how God would give him back his son, whom he had been commanded to sacrifice. (He though God would raise him from the dead, but instead God stayed his hand.)  The technical error was not important to the nature of God. It was the faith in God that was credited to Abraham as righteousness.

Coercion?  I do not think so.  One either has faith or one does not. If one believes God, the threat really does not come into it. He is due worship as the Creator, as the Savior, as Father, Teacher, etc.  Some sects of the Jews did not believe man was an eternal being, but STILL worshiped God and tried to keep His commandments.  That is a natural consequence of faith. Remember that as a child, one may obey their father out of fear, but after learning and in due course, the taught son obeys because it is the right thing to do and understanding that it is in the son's best interest to obey the father who loves him and only wants what is best for him. How much more so to obey God because we know He loves us and wants what is best for us? Likewise, if one does not believe God, the threat does not come into it because when one does not believe that God is, then one does not fear punishment. 

As to the common sense of it, in a sense your point is true, we should all see the wisdom of it and live by it, though most will not. But, no other religion teaches this. Our nature does not teach us these principles to live by, how to get along, how to treat one another, etc.  Personally, I believe with nothing other than a bible to learn from, our entire society could be restarted from scratch and function reasonably well, if people would study and apply those principles.

Pablo de Fleurs:
This won’t put your questions to rest…merely point in a direction (towards God). One must fervently pursue a relationship with Him in order for any of this to make sense…but that’s your job (for you) and my job (for me).

A. God doesn’t need us in order to have a relationship; He already has a relationship with Christ & Holy Spirit.
B. God created us and desires (but does not force) a relationship with us. He may call us or draw us to Him – but the choice is ours.
C. He wants a relationship, not a set of rules to follow…however rules & requirements are necessary for ANY relationship to function.
D. God has given us ample “evidence” of His creation (Romans 1:20). Those rejecting it do so at their own peril & I don’t care much if, after presenting the evidence, they reject it. Those wishing to argue for the sake of arguing can, literally, go to Hell.
E. God’s ways are not our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). So don’t think of it as “Liberal” or “Conservative” – God doesn’t use man’s labels to define Himself (though you can guess which “side” He leans toward from His Word).

You have children. You’d like to be in relationship with them. And you are. You’d prefer not to have them be promiscuous or use illegal drugs…but they might…so you establish rules (which they may or may not follow). Flipping a switch & making them automatons brings no one the satisfaction of a relationship…you want them to desire the relationship. What would be the point if they followed you blindly, like zombies?

The opportunity to better ourselves and follow God’s ways is ours…not His. His standards are extremely high & following Him (sort of like desiring to become the CEO of a huge corporation) will require sacrifice & tough choices. But the game is eternal & the benefits everlasting…so the “sacrifice” is worth it.  We’re preparing for eternity…not simply a month’s vacation. And preparing for eternity takes…a long time.

We, as a result of free will which then feeds the ego to a point of thinking that WE are the “gods”, screwed it up so badly that God provided a solution to the problem (Christ’s death upon the Cross – a final blood sacrifice to end all sacrifices). But it’s a gift, which must be intentionally & purposefully chosen…OR the transaction of the gift-giver isn’t complete. We must choose to follow Christ & accept the gift.

We know that technology doesn’t create itself – WE create it. In exactly the same way, someone who thinks we are not created, but have evolved…is effing stupid & not using their reason. We are too intricate & the universe too precisely tuned, to have ANY chance of freak, happenstance occurrence (ten to the 400th power or something).

We can ascertain God’s stance on issues (abortion, homosexuality, tyranny) from His Word and the conditions of life itself (freedom vs. bondage). Jesus physically fed the 5,000…but not every day or as part of an ongoing program.

If you were to buy a boat, one of the criteria would be its seaworthiness. If it don’t float, it ain’t worth the investment. You wouldn’t simply suggest that it be free of holes…you’d demand it! Actually, you’d assume it or…why are they in the boat business? So too does God require our striving for perfection. Not perfection itself…simply the striving toward it. We, unlike the boat, will have holes…but God’s plan covers that (that’s called grace).

Have the terms changed over the years? Absolutely. But we’re now on the “Jesus Plan”. Accept or reject it at your own peril. Mock now (feeding self), pay later. Pay now (dying to self) & enjoy later. Pretty simple (though not easy)- it’s we who complicate it. Praise God for the patience to deal with it all. Lord know I don’t have that level of patience…but my ways aren’t His. No irrationality. No capriciousness – but a plan for those of us that are irrational & capricious.

Short answers to lengthy questions. Sorry. But studying Scripture, not merely reading it, is the key. What you physically "see" ain't all there is...by a long shot. That's where faith enters (added to the rationality of why we believe in the first place). All religions may claim to be the path - but only one can be correct. If many paths start up a mountain, which one ends successfully? You have to decide, based upon the evidence. God has told us...and, being that it's HE who sits atop the mountain, He has the best view of the paths & where they lead. Only one does - and it's revealed within a book that has withstood the scrutiny of scholars & time & that is better corroborated than any other ancient writings. The more I read God's Word, the better i find that it agrees with God's world.

Good luck!

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