Topic: That never-ending debate on knock-down power "real or imagined" pays a visit

[Libertas]

Article is about MARSOC given the green light to use the G19...but it is this section I am focusing on:

Many American combat veterans disagreed with the switch to a 9mm pistol, but that advice was ignored.

But times have changed. Since 2001 American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan discovered, through combat experience, what types of weapons worked best at close range to take down the enemy. It was the same with SWAT teams and commandos all over the world. When conducting a raid and finding yourself up close and personal with someone trying to kill you, there is a need for a heavy caliber pistol or a shotgun (firing 00 shot or slugs). The premier pistol for ensuring you take down someone is still the .45 caliber (11.4mm) or .40 caliber (10mm, but only with a heavy bullet) pistols. There is also a .50 caliber (12.7mm) pistol, but only very large people can handle this one. The 11.4 and 10mm pistols are light and handy, compared to assault rifles or shotguns, and have a long history of quickly taking down an armed and determined foe.

SOCOM (Special Operations Command) came into being a few years after the M9 was adopted and immediately began planning to bring back .45 pistols for its commandos. Actually, many Special Forces and SEAL operators never gave up using the .45, as it was the ideal pistol for many commando operations. SOCOM had its own budget and was allowed to adopt a number of 11.4mm pistols for its personnel.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20150305.aspx

I will always rate professional field experience and professional preference over pointy-headed clinical tests, statistical machinations and subjective psudeo-objective findings thank you very much!

 

[IronDioPriest]

Whenever I think of pistols in combat, I think of Sam Elliot's Sergeant Major Plumley in "We Were Soldiers". Wouldn't use anything but a .45.

Gentlemen, prepare to defend yourself!

[warpmine]

It's obvious why most dept when to the 9 mm, less muzzle flip, however, that doesn't necessarily translate to knockdown out of the fight. It's evident that unless you're point blank, the target can easily survive albeit one in the brain. Your targets are in most cases moving and or ducking behind cover when possible. If one does get hit with the 230 gr .45, it's going to knock him down or put him out of the fight. If you could increase that energy with a much heavier projectile, you'll have that stopping power but then you'll need more propellant which will translate to flip so then you're back to sq one.

For civilian like the LEO, the progtards would be flipping out at eh damage done if .45 or even true 10 mm cartridges were used. For the military, I think 10 mm would be optimal simply because the price would come down making it cheaper for ME to buy . 45ACP are already cheap by comparison along with 9 mm. Most, well, all of my mags fit 14 rounds as opposed to the traditional 1911 mags were what 7 rounds. You're not losing capacity in the mag against the 9 mm although you can get 17 in those mags. 180 gr 10 mm will definitely penetrate thin obstacles and still knock your victim out of the fight and still have plenty of extras to get more down range.

Anyway, the military needed a replacement for those worn out 1911 frames so something was needed and NATO affiliates were already using the 9 so here we are.

[AlanS]

Remember folks. A handgun is only used long enough for you to get to a long gun.

[Libertas]

10mm is basically on par with .40, which is why a lot of LEO's migrated to platforms shooting it, they thought they could could split the difference between 9mm & .45 and have reasonable punch, capacity and control.

One size does not always fit all, use what you can handle...long or short!

[Glock32]

Remember folks. A handgun is only used long enough for you to get to a long gun.

This is the real moral of the story.  Handguns have always been a compromise, and until we have Star Wars blasters they always will be.  Even though my namesake Glock 32 is chambered in 357 SIG, I have come to have a more simplified view of handguns.  I think the two camps (light and fast vs. heavy and slow) are perfectly represented by the 9mm and .45 Auto, and all the other options are some attempt at splitting the difference.  I don't see myself wanting or needing anything other than a 9mm or .45 these days.  I like them both, and usually go with 9mm, but I am a fan of the big old .45 too.

[AlanS]

I like them both, and usually go with 9mm, but I am a fan of the big old .45 too.

I like them all, but I still say shot placement is more important than caliber.

[Libertas]

I like them both, and usually go with 9mm, but I am a fan of the big old .45 too.

I like them all, but I still say shot placement is more important than caliber.

Yes, and I would amend that to say don't be affraid to try other rounds and platforms.  People hear the "experts" talk about everything under the sun, read about guns and rounds tested, hear the opinions of friends and family...there is a lot of chatter out there to cut through.  Best thing anyone can do is shoot as much different stuff as you can get your hands on, go with other friends and family and shoot what they have, rent different ones at the range...listen to what people who have shot it say and don't be affraid to try something just because it may have a bigger round.  I think especially the ladies get pidgeon-holed into smaller round models thinking they cannot handle anything "big" in terms of size of gun or round, and I think that is bunk.  Some of those pocket pistols shooting .380 or 9mm can be snappy, and I think all that cycling action can be more of an issue for a shooter than just impact recoil, and that can mess up accuracy and follow up shots.  People shouldn't feel led to this or that, like food and wines, tastes differ, sampling is necessary...and fun!!!

[Glock32]

The real question is, if you have identical shot placement using the same type of bullet, in what scenarios would a 9mm fail where a .40 would succeed?  Or a .40 would fail where a .45 would succeed?

I imagine these real world scenarios are exceptionally rare.

[Libertas]

To me that is more of a seasonal (clothing barrier) issue, up here anyway, down South maybe not so much...I won't shy away from carrying a .380 in the Summer or warm days in Fall ro Spring, colder months where people are bundling up more I like a .45, but I also might pack heavier in Summer too if I get the urge.  Nobody ever tests bullets into clothing wrapped gelatin...not that I know of anyway...so I am just using my own common sense.

[Magnum]

I cant add much to what has already been said. However I just watched this the other day reviewing the Liberty Civil Defense round for the 9 mm.

Liberty Civil Defense 9mm and Body Armor
 

[Glock32]

On a related note, SG Ammo has 9mm +P 147 grain HST in stock.  This stuff comes in waves, and is hard to find between waves.  I've been looking for the 147 grain stuff for a while now.  I intend to use it as carry ammo for my S&W Shield, with the thought that the short barrel Shield will benefit from the heavier 147 grain bullet. Federal HST is the cat's meow in pretty much every caliber, and in 9mm the 147 grain seems to be the best performer of the three different weights.

http://sgammo.com/product/federal/50-round-box-9mm-luger-p-federal-hst-147-grain-hollow-point-le-ammo-p9hst4-high-pres

I bought four boxes earlier.  The stock has already dropped over 200 units since I bought mine, so if you want some act fast.

[Libertas]

Does that Liberty ammo perform just as well in other calibers?

I do like those Federal rounds too G, most of my defense rounds are those or Hornady's.  Well, if I could get them from the floor of the lake...