Author Topic: Another Hoyt Screed  (Read 7518 times)

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Offline Weisshaupt

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Another Hoyt Screed
« on: March 06, 2015, 06:16:51 PM »
http://accordingtohoyt.com/2015/03/06/winter-at-valley-forge/#comment-247154

I simply don't know what to do with this sort.
Accept the fact. You will fight as our Founders did at valley forge - with  hunger, cold and rifle in hand. Or you won't
This is no longer a political battle.
That was lost.
Ages ago in fact.
You pay in blood and suffering for what you hope for your children or you won't.
That is the ONLY choice before us.

Offline Glock32

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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2015, 08:13:12 PM »
Well Charlie thinks you know nothing about tyranny.  I guess there was no tyranny in 1776 either, by his definition, since the average person on an average day wasn't being brutalized.  But just like Jefferson wrote in the DoI, it's the design evinced in the trajectory of events that is tyranny.
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Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2015, 09:17:32 PM »
Well Charlie thinks you know nothing about tyranny.  I guess there was no tyranny in 1776 either, by his definition, since the average person on an average day wasn't being brutalized.  But just like Jefferson wrote in the DoI, it's the design evinced in the trajectory of events that is tyranny.

Charlie seems quite full of himself. I bet he sniffs his own farts, too.

Offline Glock32

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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2015, 12:56:13 PM »
I've read some of the newer replies today.  Man, there's still a lot of people who genuinely believe we're "this close" to finally turning the GOP into a worthy political vehicle.  Also more people taking issue with use of the word "tyranny," and that annoys me because in my mind being on a trajectory that leads inevitably to what even they would agree is "tyranny" is virtually the same thing as being under it now.

I think what annoys me most though is how these types dismiss you as wild-eyed and hyperbolic, as if that sort of alarm isn't warranted until "real" tyranny is evident -- yet those people won't do anything about it then, either. These types always look for a reason not to. Always a rationalization for working within the controlled parameters of the regime.

People either get what's unfolding or they don't. Most don't. Best not to trouble yourself over them.
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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2015, 08:04:15 PM »

I think what annoys me most though is how these types dismiss you as wild-eyed and hyperbolic, as if that sort of alarm isn't warranted until "real" tyranny is evident -- yet those people won't do anything about it then, either. These types always look for a reason not to. Always a rationalization for working within the controlled parameters of the regime.


Yes Revolutions are risky, risky things.  But the tyranny is here.  ( but its an acceptable amount of tyranny! So lets just watch our Jewish neighbors be arrested and hope it ends there!)

If you can't tell, that is what is annoying me as well.
Its not "real" tyranny. What the hell does that mean?
Was it "real" tyranny when the first jew got his number tattoo or when the  100,000th did?!?

By the time they are not hiding their misdeeds, its too late to confront them, because they have the systems in place to ensure you are not a threat.
But Its not as bad as it is overseas! Yeah and its as bad as it is overseas because those people also ignored it as it was growing and festering. Ignored it until it was too dangerous to confront it. They are just like the people who watched their Jewish neighbors' property seized and the families relocated and said to themselves the next election will change it. (and the next.. anything to prevent me from taking personal action and risk)

If the finances and culture were different, and these people were on a sound social and fiscal footing,  the time to start shooting them would be now. Before now.. if you actually wanted to retain your freedom.

  But these people are NOT on a sound footing, and  Police States are expensive and they don't have the ability to unite the victim-hood rabble as the Nazis did with their vision of the pure  blood Ayrian. They don't have the ability to generate a pro-war sentiment as the Nazis did. They run out of money, and the dollar is replaced, their power wanes and dies.  If I were wild-eyed and hyperbolic,  I would still say shoot them now.  But our cause would be better served by a tactic of preparing and waiting. (And this Ammo ban is aimed directly at that)  No, its not time to start shooting yet, not because we haven't risen to the level where that is justified, but because it would be bad tactics to confront them when they are strong, when you know that if you wait, they will be weaker.

Quote
People either get what's unfolding or they don't. Most don't. Best not to trouble yourself over them.
10-12% of the population supported the American revolution.  3%  fought in it.  At least 80%  were this type like Hoyt  - the head down in the sand, "I am just living my life, and I hope it works out"  type.  They will not see tyranny till their own Father,  mother, daughter, sister, brother or son are in danger. And then, and only then, will it be "real" tyranny.  And there will be no one left to help them. The rest of us were taken long ago.

No I am not troubling over them.  I hardly post elsewhere at all anymore.  But Hoyt's site is probably rich with people who just need to see what we do, to know others see the same, so I post  for them. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 08:09:59 PM by Weisshaupt »

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2015, 09:22:00 PM »
I may be wrong.
I am having a hard time deciding if I am at Hoyt's or Daily KOS

Apparently my punctuation and Capitalization  is bothering them.
(seriously, I am INTJ and if it doesn't drive me crazy, then others should leave me alone. I am well aware of my failings in grammar and writing. I wish I could do better. But quite frankly, like any other INTJ, if it doesn't interest me, it doesn't interest me. Its a very petty thing to bring up when more important things are being discussed.)

The best part is when they tell me I don't have an argument and then proceed to ignore what I have said by way of argument.

Or maybe the best part is when they tell me that I am "advocating violence"
Seriously, I am very likely to get the bad end of any violence that ensues. I may not even be able to do my duty and take one with me for lack of skill
But I know the violence is coming. And its not my choice. And somehow pointing that out is offensive.  (Apparently tyranny is a bad word..)


 


« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 09:28:14 PM by Weisshaupt »

Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2015, 10:33:12 PM »
Never let it be said that 'wingers can't be 'tards when they want to be.

I went back and got caught up on that thread. It devolved more or less along the lines that I thought it would but faster than I figured. It turns out that charles has plenty of company at that site and it would appear that they spend a disproportionate amount of time sniffing one anothers' farts.

Anything that I would be tempted to add to the "conversation" would only serve as troll-bait at this point but I am damned tempted to offer up:

"Niemöller would be so proud"

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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2015, 01:12:37 AM »
Guys.  Stand fast.  We got each other's sixes 'round here so you know you're in good company, yes?

It's the normalcy bias and that will be cured of them right quick when the times comes, but that's on them.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2015, 08:54:36 AM »
I went back and got caught up on that thread. It devolved more or less along the lines that I thought it would but faster than I figured. It turns out that charles has plenty of company at that site and it would appear that they spend a disproportionate amount of time sniffing one anothers' farts.

Yes, apparently.  I have nothing more to add. I probably added too much already - speeding that de-evolution..


"when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

A DESIGN. You don't have to wait for absolute despotism to arrive, and our founders did not. But yeah, get that perfect GOP candidate in there. It won't roll back Obamacare, stop the NSA from spying,  dismantle DHS , get the IRS to be non partisan, fix the supreme court,  or restore the basic principles of our Constitution. But I am sure everything will be better somehow.

Their hyper-sensitivity to the word "tyranny" speaks volumes as does their inability to accept that absolute (or "real"TM) tyranny is the end result here given the political track record of the last 150 years. (But I am a wild eyed psychopath lusting after a bloody Civil War just  for saying it)
I used  Niemöller several times to no effect. No one would even respond to it.(well they may have by now,  I am not going back to look)

These guys will still be sitting in their comfy armchairs and bemoaning how the shooting shouldn't have started, and all of the "unnecessary" death and destruction because the level of "real tyranny" hasn't been reached yet....and probably  join with the liberals in calling those fighting "terrorists" - even if they are only killing government thugs come to get them in their own yards

It's the normalcy bias and that will be cured of them right quick when the times comes, but that's on them.


I don't think this is (just) normalcy bias-- there is too much desperation and fear in their answers,  too much eagerness to dismiss and ridicule in personal attacks rather than attempts at reasoning and normally people like this would love to be condescending AND right. But we are only seeing condescending -no argument as to why what we see now isn't tyranny. No argument as to why they feel our trajectory toward despotism could be affected by a political solution. No one offered up the conditions under which "real tyranny" would be reached and a revolution would be justified.

 I think they are simply cowards. I think they already KNOW what we are saying is right.  They know a shooting war is inevitable if anything approaching freedom is to be seen in this country again,  and they know they lack  the conviction and courage  to stand up and do the right thing when the time comes.  I am sure their mutual fart sniffing is a way of massaging their bruised egos and obfuscating the knowledge that they are future Quislings. No one wants to admit to themselves that they are the Germans who sat there and watched their neighbors be taken, and these people are terrified of those of us who won't just sit there because we represent their greatest failing..

Online IronDioPriest

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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2015, 08:59:30 AM »
That kind of hypersensitivity to accurately labeling the enemy is the same dynamic that led to our split from Nano's. Some of us refused to play pretend.

When you make it your business to blow the wind of truth, people living in card-houses try to keep them standing.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2015, 09:11:47 AM »
That kind of hypersensitivity to accurately labeling the enemy is the same dynamic that led to our split from Nano's. Some of us refused to play pretend.

When you make it your business to blow the wind of truth, people living in card-houses try to keep them standing.

Yeah, but we are the ones who will die meaningless and ignominious deaths .. LOL

Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2015, 10:04:44 AM »
That kind of hypersensitivity to accurately labeling the enemy is the same dynamic that led to our split from Nano's. Some of us refused to play pretend.

When you make it your business to blow the wind of truth, people living in card-houses try to keep them standing.

Yeah, but we are the ones who will die meaningless and ignominious deaths .. LOL


We may.

I know you were joking but that's the point which eluded them throughout the conversation (and what leads to the greater point): if the system is broken (and everyone believes that it is to one extent or another) is it chicken little-ish to sound the warning?

I don't know (or care) who is a "regular" at Hoyt's site but the psychology at play was unmistakable. When flustered, the betas and the omegas flock to the security of the "alpha" (perceived alpha). In this case it was charlie. Why charlie? Because he was more smug and self-assured - and verbose - than even the Hoyt character. Charlie is an a-hole and not an alpha but they flocked to him instinctively because of the threat to their (ignorant) bliss.

Why didn't they heed Weisshaupt's admonitions and instead attacked him? My guess is that he is perceived as an outsider and that poses a risk to faith. They would rather seek the sanctuary of a flawed known to that of a rationally safer but untested entity.

The more Weisshaupt attempted to reason with them the more resistant and reactionary they became. They even overlooked their own insulting hostility to condemn Weisshaupt's so-called ad hominem. Irrespective of the value of the respective arguments put forth in the conversation they consciously chose to stop considering, stop thinking, and close ranks around a skeptic and denier. The funny/sad thing is that they could have just as easily closed ranks with a firestarter and started running for  the hills.

These people aren't salvageable because they don't want to be saved. Any further effort spent is money down a rathole.

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2015, 11:09:28 AM »

The more Weisshaupt attempted to reason with them the more resistant and reactionary they became. They even overlooked their own insulting hostility to condemn Weisshaupt's so-called ad hominem.

Oh, that was a fair assessment. I went personal with Charlie in direct response to his going personal with me.  We both did ad hominem attacks-- I don't know if he really would have sat in his chair if he was in Germany. I merely suspect he would given his comments.  Much of the hostility of the group probably stems from that challenge to the "Alpha" - but yeah I am a little frightened by the psychology at work there, but Hoyt did compare me to a Heinlein Villain so  I am kinda flattered by that. Hey it turns out INTJs really are villains!  I plan to take over the world,  rule with the angels and make you leave me the F' alone!
Tyranny!

I think its funnier that they really thought I was suggesting revolution  would be justified if tyranny occurred to a single individual.. and took it completely literally, rather than a counter to their absurd assumption that "Real Tyranny"  didn't affect individuals - only large groups.  And that is the other point they just aren't getting.  If and when a revolution starts it will be started by a very small group and spread, because other people feel the same way - and it just doesn't take that many to make life hell for everyone. But pointing that out means I am bloodthirsty - because if I think a revolution is likely, I must want it to happen.

And then that one guy tells us that if we don't think it can be changed within the system and quit, then "its all on us!"
Yeah,  here we are, middle of a civil war,  guns in hand, millions dead, and this guy gets up out of his arm chair to say "I told you so - if only you hadn't given up on the political solution, the imaginary alternate reality in my head would have turned out SOOO much better!"
Yeah go sit down and feel your self-righteous smugness of being above it all a while longer..
 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 11:22:15 AM by Weisshaupt »

Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2015, 12:39:02 PM »
If only I could be compared to a Heinlein character - good or bad  ;)

Not to unnecessarily belabor the point (you can tell me to shut up anytime ;') but I am intrigued by the psychology of it. If *one* perceives danger *one* is urged by a sense of self-preservation to defend himself against said danger. Even if it turns out not to have been a qualifying event self-preservation is instinctive. In healthy beings at least.

I believe that we all know of people who, for one reason or another (and to one degree or another) lack or suppress impulsive self-defense. They often appear indifferent or complacent about danger. Some aggressively seek perilous circumstances. Those who have lost hope ignore danger or self-medicate in order to blind themselves to dangerous conditions.

What is our obligation as fellow humans to intercede in the affairs of others?

When I was a youngster I instinctively recognized the desire within me to help others in need. Just as soon as I was old enough I enrolled as a lifeguard at our local park. I learned both lifesaving techniques and self-defense techniques. I learned that the first rule of lifesaving is that you can't save another life by losing your own. Yes, the very fact that I'm jumping into the water and racing toward someone in distress puts me in greater peril than if I sit on the beach, but I know that I can use the techniques and my judgement to take a calculated risk. And I'm appreciative enough of my mortality that I don't go where I can't get back.

The analogy gets strained a bit when I apply it to a conversation on the intarweb about possible impending doom, but the principles still apply. I am honor and duty-bound to warn them of that cliff but I recognize that there will always be someone who is contrary enough that he will ignore it right up til the point where it bites his head off.

I am reminded of Harry Truman. No, not that Harry Truman, but Harry R. Truman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Randall_Truman). Harry was the caretaker of a lodge at the foot of Mount St. Helens. Harry stubbornly resisted every call to evacuate when the volcano became active. Harry died when the mountain blew and was buried under tons of ash and rock. Poor stupid Harry. Fortunately, not poor, stupid people who tried to reason with Harry. They wisely saw the folly of continued engagement and left Harry to his fate.

"You can lead a liberal to reason but you can't make him think"

This is one of my home-grown axioms. Not exactly original, is it? But it gets the job done and drives the point home. Can I apply it directly to Hoyt's Hooters? Perhaps not but I give them "honorable" mention  :o

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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2015, 01:30:17 PM »
"Hoyt's Hooters".  Apropos.  I finally went and read the comments.

Quote
I said it before, we have abuses of power, we have real problems in need of solution. What we don’t have is a coordinated system of tyranny locking down our country and rounding up our populace.

What the hell.  What would he call a coordinated system of abuses of power, which is what we do have, if not tyranny?  The EPA, OSHA, ATF and the IRS all went after the True The Vote founders.

No, there aren't populace round-ups ..... yet.  And the HHes obviously believe there won't be any.

Quote
If you cannot draw the distinctions between the depredations of the Nazis in Germany and the problems we’re facing now, you’re a blinkered fool.

Oh, okay; apparently the Nazis fired up the machine full power and overnight, not incrementally.

Who's the blinkered fool?

It's really demoralizing when I think those people, like many on right-leaning sites, don't get it.  You, Weisshaupt, and 'Soup are telling them "it's coming" and they're telling you two to stop advocating for it.  It's like warning "the British are coming, the British are coming" and having a townsman lean out the window and accuse you of helping them and to stop scaring the children.
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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2015, 02:21:12 PM »
Okay, new screed, much like the old screed, including

Quote
first let’s examine the root of the problem and why I think you’re being led on by a false flag operation of posting sneering comments saying “I’m done.”

My main reason for thinking this is that it was in place before this vote. It was in place before the November elections. It has made comments on some blogs places I no longer venture into. It let up a little after November (had to, right?) but by December, it was back.

That’s neither a sane response, nor a response to something that just happened. It’s a campaign, all over, pushing you like cattle in one direction. We’ll examine that direction in a moment.

Weisshaupt, I demand you (and 'Soup) (and Libertas) stop false flaggin' us ovah heah, ya heah?

She seriously believes because some of US saw, knew and have been speaking of betrayal and perfidy since before the November election, because we saw by December that the SNAFU was to continue, because we knew sooner than THEM and were saying so, that we're working for the other side?

Deluded.
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Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2015, 03:06:10 PM »
Okay, new screed, much like the old screed, including

Quote
first let’s examine the root of the problem and why I think you’re being led on by a false flag operation of posting sneering comments saying “I’m done.”

My main reason for thinking this is that it was in place before this vote. It was in place before the November elections. It has made comments on some blogs places I no longer venture into. It let up a little after November (had to, right?) but by December, it was back.

That’s neither a sane response, nor a response to something that just happened. It’s a campaign, all over, pushing you like cattle in one direction. We’ll examine that direction in a moment.

Weisshaupt, I demand you (and 'Soup) (and Libertas) stop false flaggin' us ovah heah, ya heah?

She seriously believes because some of US saw, knew and have been speaking of betrayal and perfidy since before the November election, because we saw by December that the SNAFU was to continue, because we knew sooner than THEM and were saying so, that we're working for the other side?

Deluded.

Great Googly Moogly what a circle jerk!

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2015, 06:06:06 PM »
Okay, new screed, much like the old screed,

Guess I and quite a few others got to her huh? But hey, I work for a special ops Russian spy ring that runs false flags to demoralize people like her. Speaker Boner is in the ring too- that is why he  reliably does things to demoralize her too.  Seriously?

Yeah its all of the doom and gloom, "let it burn" talk that has be convinced that the GOP won't lift a finger to help - not their solid track record of doing jack sh*t.

She is right that the hard winter may very well lead to Man on a White Horse syndrome. That is why this is very, very risky. Most revolutions end exactly the way she describes - in brutal dictatorships. But then most revolutions happen in back-assward countries where freedom is shunned by all and the military has the only guns.  But armed revolution is our last chance, if she sees it or not.  I love how they are talking about "lists" in the comments- and how horrible it would be if people started working down them killing their "friends and neighbors" 

Those friends and neighbors voted to violate the social contract at its very roots. They voted to ignore the rights of others and  to "transform America" into a system where political power comes form the barrel of a gun.  They will get exactly what they have asked for.  That hard winter will be bloody and terrible. But its either that or accept their slavery.

Give her ten more years she says..  the dollar doesn't have ten more years.  Sorry. Let the Democats have control. Let them destroy the economy and become despotic enough that they see "Real Tyranny" ( since they can't see how the Nazis really did it bit by bit and can only see the mass murder, boxcars and camps at the very end)   Ten years or 20  or 30  will not change this culture, nor will the govt  suddenly give up the power it has accumulated because Hoyt gets a  genuine Tea Party person or two  elected.   That person is simply blackmails - or failing that meets with an accident.

Why can they not see that this ends one way? - the the design is obvious.

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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2015, 06:26:02 PM »
Quote
Why can they not see that this ends one way? - the the design is obvious.

You know Fran Porretto writes that "obvious" means overlooked?  That's what they're doing, missing it on purpose because it's "too terrible to contemplate".  Hell, my 82 year-old Mother, born, raised and living most of her life in NJ, knows civil war is coming and while she votes Republican and her daughter is vastly to the right of her, even she sees it as inevitable.

It's too bad she's this old and in ill health.  I've seen her brawl and she'd have been hell on wheels.
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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Another Hoyt Screed
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2015, 08:26:01 PM »
Quote
Why can they not see that this ends one way? - the the design is obvious.

You know Fran Porretto writes that "obvious" means overlooked?  That's what they're doing, missing it on purpose because it's "too terrible to contemplate".  Hell, my 82 year-old Mother, born, raised and living most of her life in NJ, knows civil war is coming and while she votes Republican and her daughter is vastly to the right of her, even she sees it as inevitable.

Go Fran.

too terrible to contemplate for them  means that they can't do what needs to be done - and they know it.

 its just depressing when people who are supposedly on our side - who need our support if they actually think they have a chance of doing anything politically, think the best way to build such a coalition is to be dismissive and rude. I pick on Hoyt at times, but I have actually always kinda liked her take on things.  But  this showed me a different side of her, and I don't like it.   I understand the desire to think there is still hope to solve this without bloodshed, but 10 minutes with any liberal will convince you otherwise.  Hoyt pins her hopes on Liberalism being a "positional good"  - something that will diminish as soon as its no longer popular - but I doubt it.  They have ALWAYS been with us,  they always will.  The key here is making sure they never, ever , get into power again. They have no morals, no conscience, no empathy and truly believe that their good intentions justify the worst evils.  Hoyt and her crowd simply do not understand the enemy.  The left really really don't see any reason to live and let live, and won't see it even when looking down the barrel of your gun.  The Civil war is going to be awful, but the tyranny the left would impose is worse still, and this time the tech exists to make Brave New World or 1984 real.  Hoyt doesn't understand that is where they dream of going, and will go. Hell she can't even see the tyranny already in place (after all, its petty tyranny to have your business ruined and your property confiscated because you refuse to bake a cake for a couple of godless queers. )