Author Topic: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags  (Read 5631 times)

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Online Pablo de Fleurs

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40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« on: July 03, 2015, 10:10:33 AM »
Live, one on one discussions on this topic that start off civilly usually end up poorly - but here are some genuine thought provoking questions which force believers to examine their "faith" and why they believe the cultural lie being pushed at them.
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July 1, 2015

For evangelicals who lament last Friday’s Supreme Court decision, it’s been a hard few days. We aren’t asking for emotional pity, nor do I suspect many people are eager to give us any. Our pain is not sacred. Making legal and theological decisions based on what makes people feel better is part of what got us into this mess in the first place. Nevertheless, it still hurts.

There are many reasons for our lamentation, from fear that religious liberties will be taken away to worries about social ostracism and cultural marginalization. But of all the things that grieve us, perhaps what’s been most difficult is seeing some of our friends, some of our family members, and some of the folks we’ve sat next to in church giving their hearty “Amen” to a practice we still think is a sin and a decision we think is bad for our country. It’s one thing for the whole nation to throw a party we can’t in good conscience attend. It’s quite another to look around for friendly faces to remind us we’re not alone and then find that they are out there jamming on the dance floor. We thought the rainbow was God’s sign (Gen. 9:8-17).

If you consider yourself a Bible-believing Christian, a follower of Jesus whose chief aim is to glorify God and enjoy him forever, there are important questions I hope you will consider before picking up your flag and cheering on the sexual revolution. These questions aren’t meant to be snarky or merely rhetorical. They are sincere, if pointed, questions that I hope will cause my brothers and sisters with the new rainbow themed avatars to slow down and think about the flag you’re flying.

1. How long have you believed that gay marriage is something to be celebrated?
2. What Bible verses led you to change your mind?
3. How would you make a positive case from Scripture that sexual activity between two persons of the same sex is a blessing to be celebrated?
4. What verses would you use to show that a marriage between two persons of the same sex can adequately depict Christ and the church?
5. Do you think Jesus would have been okay with homosexual behavior between consenting adults in a committed relationship?
6. If so, why did he reassert the Genesis definition of marriage as being one man and one woman?
7. When Jesus spoke against porneia what sins do you think he was forbidding?
8. If some homosexual behavior is acceptable, how do you understand the sinful “exchange” Paul highlights in Romans 1?
9. Do you believe that passages like 1 Corinthians 6:9 and Revelation 21:8 teach that sexual immorality can keep you out of heaven?
10. What sexual sins do you think they were referring to?
11. As you think about the long history of the church and the near universal disapproval of same-sex sexual activity, what do you think you understand about the Bible that Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, and Luther failed to grasp?
12. What arguments would you use to explain to Christians in Africa, Asia, and South America that their understanding of homosexuality is biblically incorrect and your new understanding of homosexuality is not culturally conditioned?
13. Do you think Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama were motivated by personal animus and bigotry when they, for almost all of their lives, defined marriage as a covenant relationship between one man and one woman?
14. Do you think children do best with a mother and a father?
15. If not, what research would you point to in support of that conclusion?
16. If yes, does the church or the state have any role to play in promoting or privileging the arrangement that puts children with a mom and a dad?
17. Does the end and purpose of marriage point to something more than an adult’s emotional and sexual fulfillment?
18. How would you define marriage?
19. Do you think close family members should be allowed to get married?
20. Should marriage be limited to only two people?
21. On what basis, if any, would you prevent consenting adults of any relation and of any number from getting married?
22. Should there be an age requirement in this country for obtaining a marriage license?
23. Does equality entail that anyone wanting to be married should be able to have any meaningful relationship defined as marriage?
24. If not, why not?
25. Should your brothers and sisters in Christ who disagree with homosexual practice be allowed to exercise their religious beliefs without fear of punishment, retribution, or coercion?
26. Will you speak up for your fellow Christians when their jobs, their accreditation, their reputation, and their freedoms are threatened because of this issue?
27. Will you speak out against shaming and bullying of all kinds, whether against gays and lesbians or against Evangelicals and Catholics?
28. Since the evangelical church has often failed to take unbiblical divorces and other sexual sins seriously, what steps will you take to ensure that gay marriages are healthy and accord with Scriptural principles?
29. Should gay couples in open relationships be subject to church discipline?
30. Is it a sin for LGBT persons to engage in sexual activity outside of marriage?
31. What will open and affirming churches do to speak prophetically against divorce, fornication, pornography, and adultery wherever they are found?
32. If “love wins,” how would you define love?
33. What verses would you use to establish that definition?
34. How should obedience to God’s commands shape our understanding of love?
35. Do you believe it is possible to love someone and disagree with important decisions they make?
36. If supporting gay marriage is a change for you, has anything else changed in your understanding of faith?
37. As an evangelical, how has your support for gay marriage helped you become more passionate about traditional evangelical distinctives like a focus on being born again, the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ on the cross, the total trustworthiness of the Bible, and the urgent need to evangelize the lost?
38. What open and affirming churches would you point to where people are being converted to orthodox Christianity, sinners are being warned of judgment and called to repentance, and missionaries are being sent out to plant churches among unreached peoples?
39. Do you hope to be more committed to the church, more committed to Christ, and more committed to the Scriptures in the years ahead?
40. When Paul at the end of Romans 1 rebukes “those who practice such things” and those who “give approval to those who practice them,” what sins do you think he has in mind?

Food for thought, I hope. At the very least, something to chew on before swallowing everything the world and Facebook put on our plate.
______________________________________________________________________________
Note: An earlier version of this post had the questions in paragraph format rather than enumerated. The content is still the same. Readers interested in studying what the Bible teaches about homosexuality may be interested in checking out my new book on that theme.
Kevin DeYoung is senior pastor of University Reformed Church in East Lansing, Michigan, near Michigan State University. He and his wife Trisha have six young children. You can follow him on Twitter.

http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2015/07/01/40-questions-for-christians-now-waving-rainbow-flags/
2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but of power & of love and of calm, a well-balanced mind, discipline and self-control.

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2015, 11:04:10 AM »
These are excellent questions, but their formulation is not limited to homosexuality. Many churches are filled with adulterers, porn consumers, morbid obesity, money lovers, idolators, narcissists, and every other sin under the sun. Churches turn a blind eye to far too much sin in their midst, in order to be accommodating and not shrink the congregation.

This list of questions reformulated to adapt to any sin would be excellent to flush it out and deal with it in the open.

I have to say, as anti-homosexuality as I am, and as angry as I am at the radical homosexual agenda, I am not comfortable with homosexuality being singled out as a "special" kind of sin that requires extra condemnation. I understand that it is the push to normalize the sin that makes homosexuality a target of Christian condemnation. But society is also normalizing adultery, porn, idolatry, etc, and I don't see the same zeal to push back against those sins from many Christians. They give the appearance of singling out homosexuality as a special kind of intolerable sin, while they sit next to people in church who consume porn every day, idolize TV stars, and are on their 3rd marriage with a wake of devastated children.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2015, 12:17:37 PM »
Exactly.  Seven deadly sins.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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Online Pablo de Fleurs

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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2015, 12:25:58 PM »
I'm about 1/2 on board with what you say, IDP. But there are no alcoholics suing bar-owners because they won't continue serving them. There are no serial rapists suing escort services because they can't "rent" one of the women...& there aren't any convicted sex abusers (to my knowledge), suing KinderCare for not hiring them.

Additionally, as far as the other sins go, we're told to eschew & avoid them - not to partake in them. But homosexuality, [love & the man/woman union] is repeatedly addressed in both the Old & New Testaments as vile, repugnant, abomination & a deal-breaker on heavenly access.

We also don't see drunks, rapists & adulterers suing to get their own parts in holiday parades, or speaking to school programs on the wonders of their chosen lifestyle...or shutting down businesses & confiscating the owner's life savings because of their sociopathic tendencies...or demands for cures to the diseases brought about by those other vices (as there is for AIDS, etc).

And there's this: the Bible certainly doesn't promote alcoholism, but Jesus did provide wine for the wedding feast (a clear indication that a little imbibing was and is appropriate) and Paul wrote to Timothy:
Quote
1 Timothy 5:23 King James Version (KJV)
23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

...note that Paul didn't write: Lay no longer with women, but try a little gay ass-sex for thy countenance sake and thine often infirmities. - suggesting that, while there are activities that can be taken too far....homosexual sex isn't on that list. I.E. there are no "degrees of homosexuality" as there would be with lust, drinking, gambling, cursing etc. It's simply verboten.

Homosexuality also runs completely counter to nature - as evidenced by the bodily break-down & miss-use of the anus as an entrance [not so much with the vagina] as well as the disease it spreads and the sky-high suicide rates it produces.

My take: it's definitely a "special" sin; especially when, in addition to its practice, it is foisted upon culture & school children with demands that it be accepted & affirmed as a fundamental right.

.

But I agree that recovery/addiction as well as urban outreach programs could tweak these questions & that we'd ALL be the better for it.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 12:30:32 PM by Pablo de Fleurs »
2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but of power & of love and of calm, a well-balanced mind, discipline and self-control.

Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2015, 04:57:08 PM »
Speaking as probably the most imperfect Christian there is an aspect to this that sometimes gets forgotten or glossed over. The left (who in huge numbers have turned their backs on God and are in reality anti-Christian) points to sinners within the church with disdain and contempt as hypocrites. In truth they are flawed - as are we all. Maybe that's why they're going to church?

One of the most interesting - and perverse - variations of Christianity is the Cafe Christian. They are the ones who make sure that everyone sees their piety - while thy go around screwing everything in sight. Think Nazi Pelosi or Slo Joe Bidet. They pick and choose the aspects of Christianity that they like and ignore the "tough" parts.

They are the logical focal point for such questions because they are the hypocrites who wear the cloak of decency while engaging in the cognitive dissonance of embracing degeneracy.

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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2015, 06:55:08 PM »
They pick and choose the aspects of Christianity that they like and ignore the "tough" parts.

Uhm...

2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but of power & of love and of calm, a well-balanced mind, discipline and self-control.

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2015, 07:36:54 PM »
I agree with all you say Pablo. As I stated in my initial comment, I understand that the push to normalize homosexuality is the thing that makes it such a target for Christians. It's only logical to push back.

But as far as the sin itself goes, I don't believe Satan has a special corner of hell for the homosexer, and I don't believe God has a special distaste for queers. You know more about the Bible than I do, so I know saying that all sin is equal in the eyes of God is nothing you don't already know.

I know that the good people fighting against homosexer marriage believe that all sin is equal in the eyes of God, but when one sin is singled out and others are allowed to slide, it gives the appearance of hypocrisy. An appearance of hypocrisy is all the excuse homosexers need to discard the word of God.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2015, 09:41:12 PM »
I know that the good people fighting against homosexer marriage believe that all sin is equal in the eyes of God, but when one sin is singled out and others are allowed to slide, it gives the appearance of hypocrisy. An appearance of hypocrisy is all the excuse homosexers need to discard the word of God.

Define "allowed to slide." You will find few Christians trying to get anyone to "celebrate" a sin... but when one group starts to use govt guns to mandate celebrating a sin, you might see how people might focus on that rather than on the sins that no one is pushing us to "celebrate" by force.
Its not hypercritical to be a sinner and admit that you sin and need forgiveness.  The Homosexual wants to deny they are sinning and wants to use govt force to make you pretend to condone their sin before the public and therefore before God - and thereby forcing you into another sin - to deny God's law  before men.  The thing is purely satanical on its face.
There is a time coming where survival will demand charitable good will of people with abilities,  and I will have no good will towards these perverts any more than I will towards any one who thinks govt force should be used to impose their values and agenda on others.  I am sure they will call be a hater and the word will ring as music to my ears as I watch the unrepentant , self-righteous, and  godless starve before my eyes.

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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2015, 08:30:06 AM »
Define "allowed to slide."

People who have ripped their families apart with affairs and divorce heavily pepper the pews of every congregation. No church that I'm aware of puts as much energy into condemning the sin of those people as they do condemning homosexuality.

A high percentage of every congregation regularly uses pornography. No church that I'm aware of puts as much energy into condemning the sin of those people as they do condemning homosexuality.

I'll stop with those two, just to keep it in the sexual sin category.

As I said, I fully understand that it is the aggressive demands of the homosexers to embrace their perversion that garners them the special attention. What I'm saying, and apparently failing at communicating, is that while opposing homosexuality on biblical grounds is the truth, the appearance of hypocrisy among the body of Christ severely damages the ability of the biblical argument to sway opinions.

This thought just occurred to me. Christians have been proclaiming a desire to protect traditional marriage. But the REAL threat against traditional marriage is divorce among heterosexuals. The REAL threat against children being raised in a heterosexual two-parent home is divorce among heterosexuals. Where has been the concerted effort among the body of Christ to condemn the sins of infidelity and unjustifiable divorce as the divorce rate has gone through the roof?

We can say that "divorce" wasn't a movement and therefore didn't receive the same pushback, and that would likely sum up the truth of it. But why form a movement when there is no opposition to the trend? If people had been forbidden to divorce, there likely WOULD have been a movement. The Church has largely stood by while the phenomenon of divorce has done more to destroy traditional marriage and two-parent homes than homosexual marriage likely ever could.

Now to be clear, I don't think that justifies harming marriage more by changing its definition to include homosexers. But again, the appearance of hypocrisy is all they need to negate the biblical argument. They can't negate what the bible says, but they can ignore the Christians using it to argue against their demands.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 09:08:41 AM by IronDioPriest »
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2015, 03:00:53 PM »
I have to agree with you, IDP.  Sin is sin, period.  As far as the homosexers are concerned, I believe they're guilty of more than sexual sin in that regard; they're also guilty of insisting they're not sinning and insisting everyone else sign off on their sins.  Whatever of the Seven Deadlies that covers, they've got it on their dance cards as well.

Incidentally, I believe it was the Left that pushed for no-fault divorce, and, iirc, there was some pushback at the time.  Now, every time the subject of homosexual "marriage" comes up, the same Left uses the high hetero divorce rate to beat us with.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2015, 06:28:11 AM »
I have to agree with you, IDP.  Sin is sin, period.  As far as the homosexers are concerned, I believe they're guilty of more than sexual sin in that regard; they're also guilty of insisting they're not sinning and insisting everyone else sign off on their sins.  Whatever of the Seven Deadlies that covers, they've got it on their dance cards as well.

Incidentally, I believe it was the Left that pushed for no-fault divorce, and, iirc, there was some pushback at the time.  Now, every time the subject of homosexual "marriage" comes up, the same Left uses the high hetero divorce rate to beat us with.

I also think IDP makes good points re: sin, and I think there is a case to be made that homosexuality was of marginally greater concern to the early church, all we have to do is look at recent history for that, but it goes back a long long way.  As an imperfect Christian I am not going to pretend I am perfect, but I am sick to death of the Left using that guilt to hammer others into accepting their sin-du-juor.  The goal should be perfection, we may not attain it in a single lifetime, but that does not mean the goal is unworthy.  The Left wants all religions to be No Fault religions...except the Cult of Mohammad...those asses they just kiss...thinking they'll be beheaded last. 

Bottom line - the Left should be crushed, period.  Their reign of terror must end, or there will not be a sin left to be ashamed of.  The Earth might as well be a smoldering ruin if that is the way it goes.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline AlanS

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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2015, 05:58:02 PM »
I just have one question.

Why?
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."

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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2015, 07:25:41 PM »
Words they'd prefer to hear tickling their ears.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2015, 09:23:39 AM »
Incidentally, I believe it was the Left that pushed for no-fault divorce, and, iirc, there was some pushback at the time.  Now, every time the subject of homosexual "marriage" comes up, the same Left uses the high hetero divorce rate to beat us with.


The Left wants all religions to be No Fault religions...except the Cult of Mohammad...those asses they just kiss...thinking they'll be beheaded last. 


The left is motivated by ensuring nothing is ever their responsibility. They love "no fault" anything.  But Pan is right,  No-Fault divorce was just as much about embracing, normalizing and celebrating the sin of Divorce and encouraging (mostly women) to abandon their marriages and pursue their own selfish goals ( often to their ultimate detriment)  and it has been far more destructive than "Gay Marriage" will ever be..


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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2015, 02:49:17 PM »
The Supreme Court is Not THE Supreme Court

[NOTE: The following uplifting words are based on a sermon by A.P. board member Frank Chesser preached on Sunday, June 28, 2015 in Montgomery, Alabama in response to the Supreme Court ruling on homosexual marriages.]

There are twin sins that could serve as bookends for all other sins—abortion and homosexuality. From a biblical perspective, these sins are so monumentally evil, that a nation’s embracement of them is a solicitation for divine judgment. On January 22, 1973, the Supreme Court of the United States legalized the slaughter of babies in the womb. Forty-two years has witnessed human intrusion into the mother’s womb, the workshop of God, extracting from the hands of God a work in progress, and crushing it into pieces with brutal tools of death. This sin has resulted in figurative oceans of abortive blood, waves of scarlet, washing against the seashore of the mind of God with unceasing cries for divine vengeance. When God’s judgment befell Judah, one of the reasons cited was the rivers of innocent blood with which Manasseh flooded Jerusalem that the “Lord would not pardon” (2 Kings 24:4).

Homosexual conduct is an abomination for which God demanded the death penalty under the Old Testament (Leviticus 20:13). It is vile and unnatural (Romans 1:26). Homosexuals in Sodom and Gomorrah were “exceedingly wicked and sinful before the Lord” (Genesis 13:13). They were pursuers of “strange flesh” and are “set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire” (Jude 7). Legalizing such unspeakable sins is a call for the judgment of God. Hopefully, reflection upon the following points will prove helpful in this dark national hour brought about by the recent endorsement by the Supreme Court of homosexual marriages.

(more): https://apologeticsworkshop.wordpress.com/2015/07/07/the-supreme-court-is-not-the-supreme-court/
2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but of power & of love and of calm, a well-balanced mind, discipline and self-control.

Online Pablo de Fleurs

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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2015, 09:08:23 PM »
One. More. Question.

Why is it cool to point out to the Smoker that his habit produces emphysema, lung cancer & death OR, to the alcoholic that their imbibing creates cirrhosis of the liver, brain damage and dysfunctional relationships…

…but it’s somehow “hateful”, “intolerant” & "bigoted" to point out that sodomy leads to AIDS, HIV, various assorted & sundry anal cancers, sky-high suicide rates, depression &…(wait for it) death?

#TheAnusIsAnExit!
#EmphysemaWins
#CirrhosisWins
2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but of power & of love and of calm, a well-balanced mind, discipline and self-control.

Offline Libertas

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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2015, 06:42:24 AM »
Because nothing quite says love like ass cancer?
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Online Pablo de Fleurs

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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2015, 07:53:47 AM »
Because nothing quite says love like ass cancer?

Maybe, yeah. Problem is there are a LOT of anal cancer cases. But now, thanks to the Supreme Court...



"Every Case Begins with Kay"
2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but of power & of love and of calm, a well-balanced mind, discipline and self-control.

Offline Libertas

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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2015, 08:15:10 AM »
Because nothing quite says love like ass cancer?

Maybe, yeah. Problem is there are a LOT of anal cancer cases. But now, thanks to the Supreme Court...



"Every Case Begins with Kay"

And they'll drive there in this -

And they'll have the reception here -

And they'll get that cancer started while honeymooning here -

 ::laughonfloor::
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Libertas

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Re: 40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2015, 07:44:29 AM »
Going deeper into the fetid cultural cesspool Progs keeping steering us down...

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2015/11/03/father-adopted-son-seek-right-to-marry-each-other/

...anybody remember those "slippery (and intensely gross of vile) slope" arguments we were making?

Yeah...

This filth wants to turn the entire nation into one giant Sodom.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.