Author Topic: Secession or Dissolution, Chaos and Civil War?  (Read 2683 times)

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Online Libertas

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Secession or Dissolution, Chaos and Civil War?
« on: September 18, 2015, 09:04:35 AM »
We, others...been kicking these ideas around a long time...

We've seen petitions, ballots, initiatives of every stripe come and go...mostly...sadly...just, go.

But with the current Neo-Keynesian economic model nearing implosion, the current political environment where one former opposition party adopted the shade of the longstanding progressive party...both of whom cede more and more authority to Imperial Dictate and the ever-increasing Praetorians in the bureaucracy...the preeminence of crony capitalism that fuels the dysfunctional socio-economic/political oligarchy and the corrupt and warped judicial system that rewards the oligarchy and helps enslave the once independent populace...the rise of thug-culture and ginned-up racial hatred in the minority communities and the forced influx of unassimilating dregs from around the globe into our communities...the now open warfare on Christianity and morals raging from coast to coast and the militarization of police and technological bugging of every soul in the nation...if you take all that into consideration and see how in any way this can continue without any kind of life-altering rupture...let me know, because I just do not see it.

Something is going to pop, it has to...either this "nation" becomes the largest totalitarian state the world has ever known...or something else happens.

Refusing to acknowledge the fact that we are headed for tyranny is not going to prevent tyranny or avert war and chaos.

It would seem sensible to arrive at a mutually agreed upon plan to avert tyranny or chaos.  If a consensus action were agreed to this could be achieved quickly and peacefully.  It would require either a return to Founding Principles that would roughly repeal everything that has transpired the past 150 years and working forward from there, or it would require a sober and equitable dissolution onto two or more new nation states.

Since there is one segment of society that refuses to see tyranny in anything their leaders foist but see it in anything that smells of traditional American values and Founding Principles...and because there is another party of lesser progressives who favor Big Government and cronyism that would also resist anything that would break up the whole...it would appear any hopes centered upon sense, reason, logic...intelligence...is DOA.

So, there only remains three possibilities:

1) Tyranny, and accepting it.  I think I speak for more than myself when I say that will never happen, it will be fought and resisted with every fiber of my being and with every asset I possess and for as long as I am breathing and until I am victorious.

2) Seccession, which we've discussed by us here and in more than one thread, and which has been raised once again in Texas, remains an active topic.  But this one is tricky, the first attempt at this 155 years ago was legally grounded in the principles espoused in The Declaration of Independence as well as the commonly held view at the time of the Founders that a "state" (as in Virginia, et al, not the "state" as a "nation") held preeminence and as such the Constitution came into effect only when nine of the thirteen colony states ratified the same.  And once ratified these states did not cease to remain states, they were still held sovereign and were not in fact or contemplation ever to be considered subservient vassals the the new Federal government.  Conditional upon adopting the Constitution was adopting the Bill of Rights, the first ten Amendments to the Constitution that specified in detail the rights of individuals in this new system, and equally important the 10th Amendment reiterated the then widely held understanding that the Constitution's articles were meant to secure the limits of Federal power with the respect to Executive, Legislative and Judicial authority so that Individual Rights (Amendments 1-9) and States Rights (Amendment 10) retained preeminence in the new system.  With this Foundational view of our national charters it is obvious that a state appears to have the right to enter as well as to leave the Federal compact. 

I also find it interesting that Article VII states "The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same."  The Founders intended only to bind together those States that ratified the Constitution into the new Republic, they did not state if four refused they would absorb them against their will.  This again to me reinforces the concept they had regarding (free) will.  No force, expressed will, period.  And the thing with will is it works "for" or "against", it cannot be one and not the other, or else it would not be "will"...it would not be "free".  So, once again, if a States "will" change and force is out of the question, then unratifying your State from the Federal Constitution is clearly allowed.

OK, now cue the clowns.  We all know because of the stain of slavery the rights of the Southern States to depart the union while legally proper and in accordance with Founding Principles and Founding Documents...it was shoved aside and contrary to Core Foundation Principles force was used to deny these States their right to depart and a bloody war was waged and the Northern "Union" States emerged victorious and the idea of sovereign States Rights was permanently and fatally destroyed, making all subsequent talks and efforts along secessionist lines akin to calling for High Treason, when it ought not be so...because the Founders never intended force to be used on the States in ANY form - physical police/military force, bureaucratic force, economic force, rogue judicial, executive or congressional force...none of that was to be allowed, it wasn't even contemplated and they thought the Constitution itself, The Declaration and The Bill of Rights all made that perfectly clear.

But in latter day corrupt diseased dying America were most of the vestiges that made us a great Republic have been dismantled, perverted, ignored or completely gutted over the last 150 years so trying to argue legalities and principles with a majority of the idiots alive today is about as pointless as anything can get.  But, history and the Founders and their documents are with us, not those dumbasses, so I still see merit in the discussion and efforts to assert the right to depart this sorry-assed mess.

3) Dissoution.  This is the most likely outcome, but I fear it will not be of the voluntary sort more of the it's just gonna happen sort.  People talk about Constitutional Conventions, the risks of smashing vs altering the current mess, etc.  But it is pretty obvious dissolution is coming and coming fast.  All the variables in the introduction above are going to go kinetic one at a time or several/all at once...regardless, once the shat hits the fan...it's gonna be chaos like nobody has ever seen.  Trying to keep all the participants and their goals and enemies identified is going to be a nightmare, it's going to resemble one of those bubble graphs where so many groups are going to share or not share so many allies and enemies that for any one group to survive is going to be nothing short of a miracle.

Anyway, I hope and pray Liberty-minded folks are the largest group.  As we noted in our17% thread here the American Revolution only had about 3% active participation in the field when we shed ourselves of British tyranny, the Civil War involved about 10% of the total population...I would think we in the Liberty Community are larger than that.  Even still, dilution/distribution, regional differences in engagement/outcome...it isn't going to be easy surviving this kind of sh*tstorm.  But, if there is time I would like to see Warp's .30 message he expressed here embraced by all as a last "See Ya!" to all the assclowns!   ::thumbsup::

That's my two bits...FWIW.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 07:51:09 AM by Libertas »
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline AmericanPatriot

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Re: Secession or Dissolution, Chaos and Civil War?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2015, 09:55:29 AM »
I just commented this on the thread you mentioned.

Quote
None of the previous amnesties have garnered that reaction and I'm guessing the American people are so caponized that all we'll do is grumble about it and continue watching America's Got Talent or football.

After all, we have our bread and circuses

Offline Glock32

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Re: Secession or Dissolution, Chaos and Civil War?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2015, 11:17:43 AM »
I agree.  We are in that difficult position of being able to see how this is inevitably going to transpire, but still early enough in the decline that it isn't uncomfortable yet, and most people only respond to immediate stimuli.  In the waning years of the Roman Empire, the imperial treasury went mostly to welfare and entertainment to keep the teeming masses occupied.  That might buy a system time, but after a while the consequent neglect of a civilization's more legitimate functions (defense, etc) comes home to roost.

We could avoid a lot of hardship if we (as in everyone who is nominally American) agreed to go our separate ways.  I want the system our Founders originally defined.  But too many others want the virtual opposite, a large government heavily involved in all aspects of life, there to feed and water them and clean their kennel for them.  That mindset I find abhorrent.  I much prefer the uncertainty and danger inherent to free living.  The two can never be reconciled under one government.

But I know there will be no mutual understanding on this.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 11:40:43 AM by Glock32 »
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Online Libertas

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Re: Secession or Dissolution, Chaos and Civil War?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2015, 11:36:27 AM »
The crux of our problem - progressives and their inability to see reality, employ rational critical thinking ability, understand Founding Principles or work nice with others is the main impediment to a peaceful resolution...

Or stated in simple terms...



We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline whimsicalmamapig

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Re: Secession or Dissolution, Chaos and Civil War?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2015, 02:48:10 PM »
I have said for a while now that we are at least 2 separate and oppositional cultures inhabiting the same real estate. Bifurcating this landscape is not a viable option for either as it was the mass and composition of a nation that was also a continent that allowed us to be what we were. Having the left control the coasts with remnants of their culture remaining in urban centers such as chicago etc would be unworkable and allowing the financial and economic centers to remain on the coasts would prove difficult also.

If this nation wishes to continue as in the past, it needs to be an winner take all situation and we all know what that means. I do not see individual pockets of traditional american culture remaining in remoter areas such as Wyoming or West Virgina etc and still remaining vibrant. We either win back the whole thing or give it up now.
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Offline richb

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Re: Secession or Dissolution, Chaos and Civil War?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2015, 06:41:54 PM »
The problem with "breaking up" is that some parts of the country cannot function alone anymore.  Other areas,  frankly would be better off as independent nations. 

Some examples of better off alone:  (assuming they are formed because of a mostly "peaceful" collapse of the federal government, highly doubtful)

1.  Alaska:     Alaska would be far better off an independent country.  It's held back so much by the federal government (owned 69.1%), which controls the majority of the land (and resources) there.   Its a huge state real estate wise,  but so little of it is owned by private owners.   It has plenty of natural resources,  but most are locked up by DC.   Most Alaskans are frustrated by the natural wealth that is there,  but out of reach.   Its highway system is primitive compared with the rest of the US,  and little highway construction will ever be allowed by DC.  It's far more DC holding back Alaska then the cold weather.   An independent Alaska could develop far more and still have plenty of natural areas.  Just getting cargo into trucks and out of expensive airplanes would move Alaska forward.   Yukon could be part of the nation of Alaska as well (if the US breaks up, Canada would too, most likely).

pros:  vast resources,  large land area, mostly hardy population, could be populated far more as economy increases and improves. 

cons: Russian and greenies influence would have to be kept at bay. Severe cold weather, underdeveloped motor ground transportation system. 


2. Texas*:   Texas is one state most people think could be a independent nation.   Since it once was an independent nation.  Texas comes with a asterisk in my opinion.  Why?   Some of the forces ruining California will likely ruin Texas as well if things are allowed to continue in the way things are going.     So the longer Texas waits,  the harder it will be.   Except for Austin, most of the larger cities aren't so liberal as the cities on the coast.   Texas would have to enforce its borders, without apology,  probably not only with Mexico to stay stable.   But Oklahoma could probably be part of the nation of Texas as it is similar enough in character. 

pros: natural independent streak, large land area,  ports.

cons: surrounded by unwanted immigrants, many already inside the borders.  bordered by third world nation.

3. Most Western states:   Most western states have the same problem that Alaska has.   To much of the real estate is owned by the federal government and locked away.  85% of Nevada is owned by the federal government.    So most of those states are undeveloped and will remain so.   The economics of those states would change so much if most of the real estate would move to private ownership.  I think they would grow to replace coastal areas in importance if the land is opened up. 

pros: large land area,  natural resources,  could also support larger populations with increased economy. 

cons:its a big one, no good access to ports,  would have to be on friendly relations with Texas or be influenced by it,  as the west coast would likely be expensive or not available.   Would be hard to defend as well especially the plains areas.

4.  Portions of the Southern states:  The south could get its act fully together economically independently of the US.   Its finally throwing off the former no growth Democrat controlled remnants of the pre-civil war era.   Its attractive to the middle class of all races.  It has ports without major labor union problems and anti growth politicians.

pros:  good location, ports

cons: will middle class and wealthy minorities continue to vote against their own economic gains? 




The major problem all of these new nations would have: Refugees from major cities.  Worse if nation breaks up violently (very and more likely, as that is the majority of human history).   It will be a problem even if a peaceful breakup is done, as there will be too many takers in the major cities. 

 I don't see most of the Midwest, Northeastern and its coastal area,  West coastal area being able to function for very long.    Too many major cities, takers, people with bad ideas about how economics work etc.  These areas would become broken up into little areas controlled by strong men,  foreigners, corporate interests etc.   Places no average person would want to be.   Had the nation broken up fifty years ago,  California could have been a nation.   It would have to get energy and water from the western states nation,  and those states won't be able to (or willing to be honest,  as they will need those resources themselves).   So it cannot stand alone anymore just for those reasons.


The biggest major cities (New York, Chicago, LA) would de-develop into hell holes.  Few cities can function as city-states, and I doubt any American city could become one,  even NYC.    Elites would double down on building liberal "utopia" and get the opposite.   There would be no one to pay for it all.  Ferals would destroy cities then flee into suburban areas, forcing suburban areas to defend themselves.  Some would be successful and hold it off,  others would be overrun.

If technology survives there will be even less reason for large cities.   Survival will depend on decentralization, and if communications are not completely destroyed, will be the ideal, even more so then today.  I doubt a city could be larger then 100,000 as they would be too dangerous.

Interesting to talk about.   Us younger folks will likely see the end of the US and have to live out some of these things.


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Re: Secession or Dissolution, Chaos and Civil War?
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2015, 07:03:00 PM »
Re:  California and water:  according to a recent article I read, Israel has developed a kick-ass desalinization method.
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Online Libertas

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Re: Secession or Dissolution, Chaos and Civil War?
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2015, 07:56:05 AM »
The all or nothing thing isn't going to work, and it can only lead to what would happen if rational minds allowed areas to go their separate ways anyway...so in the end what was once one comprised of many will be broke apart...and the casualties can be laid at the feet of the all-or-nothings.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Glock32

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Re: Secession or Dissolution, Chaos and Civil War?
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2015, 01:37:49 PM »
Yeah all or nothing is a non-starter.  That ship sailed a long time ago.  Significant parts of this country are not even fundamentally American anymore.
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Offline AlanS

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Re: Secession or Dissolution, Chaos and Civil War?
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2015, 05:52:50 PM »
The biggest major cities (New York, Chicago, LA) would de-develop into hell holes.

I think they're already there.

Ferals would destroy cities then flee into suburban areas, forcing suburban areas to defend themselves.  Some would be successful and hold it off,  others would be overrun.

Again, it's already happening, albeit peacefully....sort of.
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Offline whimsicalmamapig

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Re: Secession or Dissolution, Chaos and Civil War?
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2015, 07:10:40 PM »
as for all or nothing, even if we split apart, as is noted above the feral socialist centers will collapse and the vermin head for the outlying areas for food. In the end those who hold american values are the ones who will survive. It may seem more like the beginning of this nation again when the pieces need to be picked up, the destruction cleaned up and the refuse dumped in the oceans.

I do believe that there is no compromise at this point, how that works out is still to be seen, but kumbaya is not on the agenda.
Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
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Re: Secession or Dissolution, Chaos and Civil War?
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2016, 07:57:19 AM »
Texas effort keeps growing...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/19/the-texas-secession-movement-is-getting-kind-of-serious/

Hey, 10 counties in Texas could probably form a small state, maybe this ought to start at that level...secede from the state first then the hijacked nation?

What the heck, worth a shot!
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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Secession or Dissolution, Chaos and Civil War?
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2016, 08:10:43 AM »
Texas effort keeps growing...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/19/the-texas-secession-movement-is-getting-kind-of-serious/

Hey, 10 counties in Texas could probably form a small state, maybe this ought to start at that level...secede from the state first then the hijacked nation?

What the heck, worth a shot!

The comments from Libtards seem to be about the same.  Love the one about how Texans would come crawling back once the Mexican Drug lords started beheading people. Obama is letting them do that NOW.  You can bet Texas succession  is being driven by the lack of law and order near the border purposely created by the fed. ( You will also note that the article doesn't bother to list any reasons for why these Texans want to leave the union)

But yeah, a long list of retards basically suggesting that no one can survive without the federal government in their lives.  News for libtards ,  the new Republic of Texas would just start killing illegals, and the past of most resistance.  The drug trade and immigration  would simply move West and east.

I also love the hand wringing about ow Succession isn't "legal" - you can't do That! The Supreme Court said so!  Yeah, they also said a penalty was a tax,  that the Government can use eminent domain for tax revenue, and half of the court can't find the words "Shall not be infringed" in the Constitution. News flash - when you erode the legitimacy of a institution  what they say carries less and less weight.  When you rule through gunpoint, that makes force the legitimate means to get what you want. And you morons are afraid to pick up a gun. So when Texas leaves at gunpoint, are you willing to pick up a gun and try and stop them?  No? Then shut your yap.

Offline Glock32

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Re: Secession or Dissolution, Chaos and Civil War?
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2016, 10:02:31 AM »
The appeal to legality is especially amusing.  Revolutions and secessions are by definition "illegal" and that is precisely their point: to sever the legal bonds.

I imagine everything that transpired from Concord Green to Yorktown was also "illegal" as far as the British Crown was concerned.
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Online Libertas

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Re: Secession or Dissolution, Chaos and Civil War?
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2016, 05:41:51 PM »
Call me illegal.

 ::ohno::

Yeah, whatever...stay on the wrong side of Liberty.

 ::doublebird::

Maybe I get more respect and benefits being an illegal,eh?   ::stirpot::
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.