Author Topic: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done  (Read 3565 times)

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Offline Libertas

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I think this subject deserves it's own thread.  The issue of America's survival/revival into anything it once was - a thriving lone bastion of freedom, liberty and unequaled economic prosperity - is indelibly linked to the 2016 Trump-Clinton election but it is hardly the sole mile marker counting down the demise of this once great representative republic...outside of the few who pushed encroaching despotism back a peg or two like Ronald Reagan...the march has been steadily towards statism and away from Liberty...while some (GW Bush) were a push, giving in, taking a little back, breaking even elsewhere...merely slowed the tide.

I think this article by Peterson pretty much nails it...the consequences of a Hillary Clinton Presidency would doom this nation, there would no longer be any doubt the Rubicon was crossed the last time...there will be no recovery from this, no political Renaissance...no hope of peacefully restoring the republic, it will be literally over.

It is important that people realize this, it is even more important that those responsible know this...because people like us who know for certain where the blame belongs will ensure they know one way or another!

Reprinted in its entirety -

September 6, 2016
NeverTrumps and the End of America as We Know It
By Jared E. Peterson
The election of Hillary Clinton would mean final defeat for American conservativism -- for at least a generation and almost certainly for much longer than that.  The demographic changes certain to flow from eight more years of open borders, general amnesty, and distribution of the newly arrived statist voters to electorally vulnerable states would make the Left’s presidential victory this fall, for all practical purposes, permanent.

And that’s without considering the effect on the electorate of the increasingly intolerant and repressive educational and political environment, an environment that for eight more years would continue driving substantial segments of the populace, especially the vulnerable young, into the ever more mandatory belief systems of the Left.


But don’t worry: After Clinton’s election the elegant and witty columns of George Will, William Kristol and Jonah Goldberg, aided by the surpassing political skills of the Bush and Romney families, will save us all from both these calamities, and from all the other unnamed ones that Hillary and the Left will bring.

Uh, maybe not.

If Clinton prevails there will be no conservative (or Republican) president during the lifetime of any adult member of the feckless Republican royal families, or of Mr. Goldberg or the children of George Will or William Kristol. Their prediction that the presidency will be recovered in short order is a pipe dream. Over the medium term, twenty to twenty-five years, that recovery would approach demographic impossibility. 

Despite the inarguable magnitude of the coming Clinton/Left disaster, Republican/conservative turncoats, led by these and other members of what Peggy Noonan aptly terms the “protected classes,” are working for Clinton’s election.

In unalloyed self-destructive irrationality, the support of Hillary Clinton by Never Trump commentators and Republican politicians is sui generis. 

Never before in American history have intellectual and political leaders of a major party deliberately attempted to open the gates of enduring power to an enemy sworn to their eradication.

Are they moved by general snobbery, confusion caused by overwork, East Coast social pressure?  I’ve stopped trying to figure it out and stopped caring.

But on a different level, on the level of their own personal careers and perceived short-term well-being, I’m absolutely certain what they think:

“We’ll do fine under Clinton and the Left. Under Obama we’ve experienced all of what Clinton will bring and we’ve flourished. Under Clinton we’ll do it again. We’ll continue speaking out, politely and carefully of course, and they won’t touch us; we won’t lose our jobs, our children won’t be expelled, there’ll be no unpleasant changes in our expensive neighborhoods or our children’s toney private schools, we’ll drink with the same refined people in our clubs and cocktail parties. Through it all, we’ll continue making an excellent living as the articulate opposition to the wretchedness the Left will be imposing on the American working and middle classes. The little people, the unprotected people, will endure the downside -- low wages, high taxes, unsafe and decaying neighborhoods, destroyed public schools, and violent racial animosity.  We’ll be the Left’s safe and well paid critics.”

What an appalling betrayal of the vast majority of Main Street voters who elected two Bush Presidents and made conservative intellectuals ‘cushy lives possible!

This is clear: Trump’s defeat, if it occurs, will be the work of the NeverTrumps.

The margin by which Trump now trails in national and battle ground polls is almost exactly equal to that small but significant segment of the Republican and conservative voter base -- some 20 - 25% -- that’s still following the NeverTrumps off the cliff.  Recent polling puts Trump’s support among likely Republican voters at about 73% (Romney got 93% in 2012).

So, if Trump falls, the NeverTrumps will be grinning beside the body -- like Brutus perhaps a bit nervously -- bloody knives in hand.  But as the Clinton debacle unfolds, and their role in bringing it about is meticulously established, dissected and seared into memory, who will be their political friends? Perhaps more pertinently, where will they hide?  Questions for a different essay.

Victory by the execrable Clinton and the Left is still avoidable, but only if the usually overwhelming percentages of conservatives and Republicans unite behind their Party’s candidate.  73% will not do, even with the new voters Trump’s issue candor and personal bravery are bringing.

The Republican and conservative voter base has got to be persuaded to ignore the suicidal advice of their failed former leaders and snobbish intellectuals, and come together behind a candidate who ever more clearly is solidly with them on almost all the great issues: immigration and borders, freedom of expression and religion, the role and composition of the federal judiciary, taxation and regulation, national security, and public safety.

But if 20-25%% of the Republican core continues to follow the wrist slitting advice of the Never Trump crowd, the Left once again will be victorious --as in 1992, when Republican defections to Perot gave the presidency to Bill Clinton with a puny 43% of the vote.

America thereafter would be permanently transformed into a new nation, molded by the Left’s dystopian dreams of multiculturalism, racial and ethnic balkanization, boiling hatred of black for white, open borders, and a government suffocated economy, a new nation whose populace would be increasingly beaten down by the dictates of governmentally mandated orthodoxies. 

Here -- of singular importance for any future chance of conservative governance in America -- is what we know is coming from Clinton and the Left:

Intensification of the Democratic Party-sponsored third world invasion of the country.  In this so far highly successful project, the Left has substituted millions of statist newcomer voters for the politically uncooperative Americans who shunned them in 1968, 1972, 1980, 1984, and 1988.

But the Left’s revolutionary demographic transformation of America is not complete. A stubborn and significant core of patriots and traditionalists remains.  It will be the primary task of the Clinton presidency to overwhelm this annoyingly tenacious opposition once and for all.   

The following states require only a modest infusion of statist newcomers to place them out of reach for any Republican or conservative presidential candidate not pledged to open borders and a huge welfare state: Virginia, North Carolina, Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Iowa, Nevada, Colorado and Arizona.

When any five of these ten are gone it’s game over.

Under Clinton, Illegals would continue moving north across America’s southern border in numbers sure to exceed those who came during Obama’s presidency (a minimum of 2.5 million according to liberal leaning Pew Research and the Center for Migration Studies).

In addition to the illegals, at least 1.5 million overwhelmingly third world legal immigrants will arrive annually (up from 1.1 million per year under Obama), nearly all impoverished and nearly all with expectations of government formed in their statist homelands.

Added to the legal and illegal immigrants will be the sure-to-be-legalized 11-20 million illegals already here (again Pew and Homeland Security admit to 11.2 million illegals already in America, but the actual figure is unknowably higher).

And if Clinton’s amnesty runs into Congressional opposition and she resorts to unconstitutional executive orders, this time there’ll be no help from the Supreme Court. The US Supreme Court will become a five vote rubber stamp for the Left immediately upon Clinton’s appointment of Justice Scalia’s replacement. That majority will be sustained or enlarged by whatever further vacancies come Clinton’s way.

So, adding it all up, the number of new future statist client voters after Clinton will be in the neighborhood of 26-38 million: 11-20 million amnestied illegals; 12 million new, almost exclusively third world, statist voting legal immigrants; and another 4-6 million newly arrived illegals.

With the full power of the federal executive branch in their hands, and no opposition from an increasingly partisan federal judiciary and Supreme Court, the re-empowered Left will move its newly chosen voters around as it chooses -- to the states where their voting presence will have the greatest effect.

Have the Bush and Romney families -- and their intellectual enablers – given all this even passing thought?

How many of these new voters do Messrs. Kristol, Will and Goldberg expect to persuade with their erudition?

Much more likely, what they’ve focused on is what’s always been their main concern: continued politically useless but personally remunerative occupation of the places of party power.

Over the last 25 years, neither the intellectuals nor the Party leaders of the NeverTrump crowd has prevented, or even slowed, the Left’s march through our cultural institutions.  And now, to round out their litany of failure, they urge us to give the Left permanent possession of the presidency and the federal judiciary.

One last fatal give-away from the crowd that’s already failed so grandly. I submit that Ronald Reagan, America’s most successful conservative president, and William Buckley, America’s most effective conservative intellectual, would be appalled by this selfish, self-destructive claque of clueless politicians and confused scribblers who are trying to lead America into the arms of the Left.

Reagan and Buckley had the unfailingly good judgement to vigorously support the most conservative electable candidate. Especially where the US presidency was at stake. Barring calamity, the list of possible next American Presidents contains two names. There are no others. It would take Ronald Reagan or Bill Buckley all of a microsecond to give Trump their full support in this crucial election.

It should be evident by now that the determined suicides within Republican Party and conservative leadership ranks can’t be reached by reason. This is the time to simply ignore them. Doing so now will be good practice for the future.

As for the rest of us, we can only work to ensure that, in the end, the overwhelming majority of America’s conservatives and Republicans are guided by what their greatest leaders would have done in these circumstances, and not by the willfully destructive, self-interested counsel of the snobs who are trying to hand America to the Left.

The election of Hillary Clinton would mean final defeat for American conservativism -- for at least a generation and almost certainly for much longer than that.  The demographic changes certain to flow from eight more years of open borders, general amnesty, and distribution of the newly arrived statist voters to electorally vulnerable states would make the Left’s presidential victory this fall, for all practical purposes, permanent.

And that’s without considering the effect on the electorate of the increasingly intolerant and repressive educational and political environment, an environment that for eight more years would continue driving substantial segments of the populace, especially the vulnerable young, into the ever more mandatory belief systems of the Left.

But don’t worry: After Clinton’s election the elegant and witty columns of George Will, William Kristol and Jonah Goldberg, aided by the surpassing political skills of the Bush and Romney families, will save us all from both these calamities, and from all the other unnamed ones that Hillary and the Left will bring.

Uh, maybe not.

If Clinton prevails there will be no conservative (or Republican) president during the lifetime of any adult member of the feckless Republican royal families, or of Mr. Goldberg or the children of George Will or William Kristol. Their prediction that the presidency will be recovered in short order is a pipe dream. Over the medium term, twenty to twenty-five years, that recovery would approach demographic impossibility. 

Despite the inarguable magnitude of the coming Clinton/Left disaster, Republican/conservative turncoats, led by these and other members of what Peggy Noonan aptly terms the “protected classes,” are working for Clinton’s election.

In unalloyed self-destructive irrationality, the support of Hillary Clinton by Never Trump commentators and Republican politicians is sui generis. 

Never before in American history have intellectual and political leaders of a major party deliberately attempted to open the gates of enduring power to an enemy sworn to their eradication.

Are they moved by general snobbery, confusion caused by overwork, East Coast social pressure?  I’ve stopped trying to figure it out and stopped caring.

But on a different level, on the level of their own personal careers and perceived short-term well-being, I’m absolutely certain what they think:

“We’ll do fine under Clinton and the Left. Under Obama we’ve experienced all of what Clinton will bring and we’ve flourished. Under Clinton we’ll do it again. We’ll continue speaking out, politely and carefully of course, and they won’t touch us; we won’t lose our jobs, our children won’t be expelled, there’ll be no unpleasant changes in our expensive neighborhoods or our children’s toney private schools, we’ll drink with the same refined people in our clubs and cocktail parties. Through it all, we’ll continue making an excellent living as the articulate opposition to the wretchedness the Left will be imposing on the American working and middle classes. The little people, the unprotected people, will endure the downside -- low wages, high taxes, unsafe and decaying neighborhoods, destroyed public schools, and violent racial animosity.  We’ll be the Left’s safe and well paid critics.”

What an appalling betrayal of the vast majority of Main Street voters who elected two Bush Presidents and made conservative intellectuals ‘cushy lives possible!

This is clear: Trump’s defeat, if it occurs, will be the work of the NeverTrumps.

The margin by which Trump now trails in national and battle ground polls is almost exactly equal to that small but significant segment of the Republican and conservative voter base -- some 20 - 25% -- that’s still following the NeverTrumps off the cliff.  Recent polling puts Trump’s support among likely Republican voters at about 73% (Romney got 93% in 2012).

So, if Trump falls, the NeverTrumps will be grinning beside the body -- like Brutus perhaps a bit nervously -- bloody knives in hand.  But as the Clinton debacle unfolds, and their role in bringing it about is meticulously established, dissected and seared into memory, who will be their political friends? Perhaps more pertinently, where will they hide?  Questions for a different essay.

Victory by the execrable Clinton and the Left is still avoidable, but only if the usually overwhelming percentages of conservatives and Republicans unite behind their Party’s candidate.  73% will not do, even with the new voters Trump’s issue candor and personal bravery are bringing.

The Republican and conservative voter base has got to be persuaded to ignore the suicidal advice of their failed former leaders and snobbish intellectuals, and come together behind a candidate who ever more clearly is solidly with them on almost all the great issues: immigration and borders, freedom of expression and religion, the role and composition of the federal judiciary, taxation and regulation, national security, and public safety.

But if 20-25%% of the Republican core continues to follow the wrist slitting advice of the Never Trump crowd, the Left once again will be victorious --as in 1992, when Republican defections to Perot gave the presidency to Bill Clinton with a puny 43% of the vote.

America thereafter would be permanently transformed into a new nation, molded by the Left’s dystopian dreams of multiculturalism, racial and ethnic balkanization, boiling hatred of black for white, open borders, and a government suffocated economy, a new nation whose populace would be increasingly beaten down by the dictates of governmentally mandated orthodoxies. 

Here -- of singular importance for any future chance of conservative governance in America -- is what we know is coming from Clinton and the Left:

Intensification of the Democratic Party-sponsored third world invasion of the country.  In this so far highly successful project, the Left has substituted millions of statist newcomer voters for the politically uncooperative Americans who shunned them in 1968, 1972, 1980, 1984, and 1988.

But the Left’s revolutionary demographic transformation of America is not complete. A stubborn and significant core of patriots and traditionalists remains.  It will be the primary task of the Clinton presidency to overwhelm this annoyingly tenacious opposition once and for all.   

The following states require only a modest infusion of statist newcomers to place them out of reach for any Republican or conservative presidential candidate not pledged to open borders and a huge welfare state: Virginia, North Carolina, Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Iowa, Nevada, Colorado and Arizona.

When any five of these ten are gone it’s game over.

Under Clinton, Illegals would continue moving north across America’s southern border in numbers sure to exceed those who came during Obama’s presidency (a minimum of 2.5 million according to liberal leaning Pew Research and the Center for Migration Studies).

In addition to the illegals, at least 1.5 million overwhelmingly third world legal immigrants will arrive annually (up from 1.1 million per year under Obama), nearly all impoverished and nearly all with expectations of government formed in their statist homelands.

Added to the legal and illegal immigrants will be the sure-to-be-legalized 11-20 million illegals already here (again Pew and Homeland Security admit to 11.2 million illegals already in America, but the actual figure is unknowably higher).

And if Clinton’s amnesty runs into Congressional opposition and she resorts to unconstitutional executive orders, this time there’ll be no help from the Supreme Court. The US Supreme Court will become a five vote rubber stamp for the Left immediately upon Clinton’s appointment of Justice Scalia’s replacement. That majority will be sustained or enlarged by whatever further vacancies come Clinton’s way.

So, adding it all up, the number of new future statist client voters after Clinton will be in the neighborhood of 26-38 million: 11-20 million amnestied illegals; 12 million new, almost exclusively third world, statist voting legal immigrants; and another 4-6 million newly arrived illegals.

With the full power of the federal executive branch in their hands, and no opposition from an increasingly partisan federal judiciary and Supreme Court, the re-empowered Left will move its newly chosen voters around as it chooses -- to the states where their voting presence will have the greatest effect.

Have the Bush and Romney families -- and their intellectual enablers – given all this even passing thought?

How many of these new voters do Messrs. Kristol, Will and Goldberg expect to persuade with their erudition?

Much more likely, what they’ve focused on is what’s always been their main concern: continued politically useless but personally remunerative occupation of the places of party power.

Over the last 25 years, neither the intellectuals nor the Party leaders of the NeverTrump crowd has prevented, or even slowed, the Left’s march through our cultural institutions.  And now, to round out their litany of failure, they urge us to give the Left permanent possession of the presidency and the federal judiciary.

One last fatal give-away from the crowd that’s already failed so grandly. I submit that Ronald Reagan, America’s most successful conservative president, and William Buckley, America’s most effective conservative intellectual, would be appalled by this selfish, self-destructive claque of clueless politicians and confused scribblers who are trying to lead America into the arms of the Left.

Reagan and Buckley had the unfailingly good judgement to vigorously support the most conservative electable candidate. Especially where the US presidency was at stake. Barring calamity, the list of possible next American Presidents contains two names. There are no others. It would take Ronald Reagan or Bill Buckley all of a microsecond to give Trump their full support in this crucial election.

It should be evident by now that the determined suicides within Republican Party and conservative leadership ranks can’t be reached by reason. This is the time to simply ignore them. Doing so now will be good practice for the future.

As for the rest of us, we can only work to ensure that, in the end, the overwhelming majority of America’s conservatives and Republicans are guided by what their greatest leaders would have done in these circumstances, and not by the willfully destructive, self-interested counsel of the snobs who are trying to hand America to the Left.

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/09/nevertrumps_and_the_end_of_america_as_we_know_it.html#ixzz4JUuyuBkJ
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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2016, 12:47:33 PM »
If Trump loses I will have a "going out of business" sale, followed by a "fire sale" followed by a fire, followed by me slipping out the back gate. After that you won't hear from me - you'll hear about me.

I'm a poor loser.

Offline Predator Don

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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2016, 02:20:35 PM »
If all goes well, I'm a few weeks from selling my business. Figure I'll have 3-4 years of collecting lease for the building before it gets so bad under Clinton that it goes away. Once it goes bad, I'll give the building up....because we once thought to pay it off but if Hillary is elected, I don't think it is the wise thing to do.

Truthfully, we resisted the belief that economically it could totally bottom out. This election will change our entire outlook on how we move forward. I've never been one who wanted to be in debt, we like to pay things off, be debt free and have worked hard toward that goal. Now? I can't believe we will entertain keeping a building note because we see such a downturn, such a poor economic future that it would be better to use our resources in other ventures, and once our leasee can't pay, just toss the keys to the bank. Here ya go. It's yours. Take it. It drives me nuts...but after the business sells, we may consider selling the building too. Totally against our nature.

I could never get my wife to pack it up and move out of country and I'm sure there will be a period of time before we need to decide what to do....but I'm fairly certain, at this point, paying off our building won't happen.

I know how we got here......but it's still difficult to think, after 60 years of responsibility, planning, sacrificing, we could be faced with decisions I never thought fathomable. Welcome to the new America.

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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2016, 03:06:05 PM »
I'm pretty much of the opinion that Obama's presidency was the last twist of the dagger in the heart of this nation. Politics will not save us.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2016, 03:30:34 PM »
I'm pretty much of the opinion that Obama's presidency was the last twist of the dagger in the heart of this nation. Politics will not save us.

Yes.  No.  Almost every institution has swung Left; the courts are the most egregious injury.  The Senate Republicans just slotted in Obongo's lower court choices and from thence come the reversals on voter ID cases and the screwed up decisions on "transgender rights".
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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2016, 06:14:47 PM »
I had all my fire sales after Obama's second election, plus Minnesota going Full Retard (DDD).

Nothing short of the country splitting in two will have a chance of creating anything worthy of coming back to.

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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2016, 08:52:18 PM »
I'm pretty much of the opinion that Obama's presidency was the last twist of the dagger in the heart of this nation. Politics will not save us.

Yes.  No.  Almost every institution has swung Left; the courts are the most egregious injury.  The Senate Republicans just slotted in Obongo's lower court choices and from thence come the reversals on voter ID cases and the screwed up decisions on "transgender rights".


At this point, my only real interest in politics is the extent to which it can illuminate some necessary facts that will inform people's thinking in the post-collapse period.  By that I mean such things as:

  • the finally laid bare fact that the GOP were not simply incompetent in their inability to prosecute a conservative agenda, but were in fact active opponents
  • the fact that white people will have to begin thinking and behaving in explicitly tribal modes -- whether one thinks it right or not doesn't matter
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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2016, 10:12:21 PM »
I'm pretty much of the opinion that Obama's presidency was the last twist of the dagger in the heart of this nation. Politics will not save us.

Yes.  No.  Almost every institution has swung Left; the courts are the most egregious injury.  The Senate Republicans just slotted in Obongo's lower court choices and from thence come the reversals on voter ID cases and the screwed up decisions on "transgender rights".


At this point, my only real interest in politics is the extent to which it can illuminate some necessary facts that will inform people's thinking in the post-collapse period.  By that I mean such things as:

  • the finally laid bare fact that the GOP were not simply incompetent in their inability to prosecute a conservative agenda, but were in fact active opponents
  • the fact that white people will have to begin thinking and behaving in explicitly tribal modes -- whether one thinks it right or not doesn't matter

No, it doesn't matter ........ to the alt-right.  For all the various definitions, inclusions and exclusions, one can be sure of one thing, some Whites have finally come awake to what's at stake.
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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2016, 11:08:01 PM »

No, it doesn't matter ........ to the alt-right.  For all the various definitions, inclusions and exclusions, one can be sure of one thing, some Whites have finally come awake to what's at stake.

And not a moment too soon.  It may be what saves Western Civilization.  For 30 years or more the liberals have been trumpeting the extinction of white people, triumphantly reeling off all the statistics of birthrate, immigration, etc, etc.  But our destiny is not riding on rails.  Directions can change suddenly.  Europe is getting a cold slap in the face by reality right now, and the response has been Brexit and the rise of the new Right all over the continent.  Trump's popularity over here didn't really take off until he "went there" and singled out the invasion over our southern border as a key issue, and his rise has been meteoric since.  The media can try to marginalize this all they want, but the fact is the frog is showing some signs that it knows the water is getting too hot.

The elites don't get to set our destiny for us.  We do.  All this fait accompli talk of theirs, about our demographic destiny, is essentially nothing more than a confidence trick and people are realizing it.
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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2016, 05:36:58 AM »
Quote
... For 30 years or more the liberals have been trumpeting the extinction of white people, triumphantly reeling off all the statistics of birthrate, immigration, etc, etc. ,,,

And it's been sickening!  It's one thing to hear the Blacks do it, those of other races as well, but to hear the lunatic White Left doing it is horrifying.  For the same White Left that goes into paroxysms of grief over any and all other species, endangered or extinct, to cheer at the prospect .........  Horrifying and infuriating. 
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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2016, 08:11:11 AM »

    • the fact that white people will have to begin thinking and behaving in explicitly tribal modes -- whether one thinks it right or not doesn't matter

    While I don't dispute this is probably the case, and it might be required for survival-  it is in effect throwing the baby out with the bath water. We already have a Tribe - the American Tribe -  one of the first in history in which membership was not determined by skin color, or religion,  but acceptance of a set of simple principles about law, freedom and justice, and I think we will be best served rallying, organizing and identifying around a Gadsen Flag, than around "White Lives Matter (too) " hashtag.

    Sticking with the American tribe  has the (significant) disadvantage that we can not easily and quickly tell friend from foe on a battle field - and hence my comment about  basic survival. But the number of White liberal we already have make that moot anyway. In fact, I think the white liberals will be the first or organize on racial lines if  they get over their white guilt. In what comes ways must be found to exclude liberals from our ranks -  and if the south becomes a black controlled region with white slaves, I have no problem at all selling the liberals we capture to them, or failing that,  to the Caliphate. I would in fact find it a fitting punishment that they be enslaved to the very powers they were aiding and abetting in the overthrow of the old republic.

    However, conservatives,  responding in kind and organizing  around the color of our skin,  will  only turn  away like minded individuals in the American tribe who do not happen to have white skin - serving the enemies purpose of divide and conquer.- and even if we emerge victorious completely or in enclaves, could result in white-focused, racist culture that ultimately will not serve us well. (Just as the Black Lives Matter Black focused racist culture does not serve lacks well)  America became a superpower by accepting other cultures and ideas into the game, as long as they adopted and played by the rules - as long as they joined the American Tribe and accepted the truths we find to be self-evident, and if we loose tat ability, we loose a large part of what we are fighting for. 

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    Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
    « Reply #11 on: September 07, 2016, 08:14:45 AM »
    My interest is reduced to just taking notes for the coming bellum propter libertatem sancti...the holy war for liberty.

    The Progs have never and will never play nice with us, so peaceful coexistence with them is as remote and insane as peace is with Islam.

    The E-GOP was never going to reform itself, grow a set and stand and fight on God-given principles illuminated by our Founders.

    A people grown fat, lazy and stupid was never going to stand up on their own two feet and take responsibility for their actions.

    A complicit press spreading deceit is never going to willingly reverse their Goebbels-like loyalty to progressive dogma.

    A corrupt judiciary is never going to go back to original constitutional construction and undo its own excesses.

    A crony-capitalist cabal living parasitically off this necrotic state is not going to stop feeding on the corpse until there is no corpse left to feed upon.

    A popular culture that worships itself is not going to reform its morality simply because it is the right thing to do.

    This trajectory has but one path, the path can be deviated, but nothing can ultimately stop it unless all of the above if effectively and permanently reversed.

    Trump has a chance to slow the pace...Hillary can only quicken it.  Regardless of the outcome...the E-GOP has to be put on notice...the Progs are our #1 enemy but the treachery of the E-GOP is perhaps more despicable, because they should know better and are purposely siding with the enemy out of pure blind spite.

    That spite will be returned unto them 1,000 fold!

    I've made my choice...everyone will have to make theirs or have it made for them.

    Irrumabo!  GOP? - Nope. No more. They made their bed, now let them die in it.*
    * © Libertas (H/T Glock32)

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    Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
    « Reply #12 on: September 07, 2016, 08:59:35 AM »
    Quote
    ... We already have a Tribe - the American Tribe -  one of the first in history in which membership was not determined by skin color, or religion,  but acceptance of a set of simple principles about law, freedom and justice, and I think we will be best served rallying, organizing and identifying around a Gadsen Flag, than around "White Lives Matter (too) " hashtag.

    First, the Founders wrote our Documents in which they established those principles about law, freedom and justice for themselves and their posterity, essentially their descendants: White Christians/agnostics.

    Having written that, I don't largely disagree with the propositional nation theory, but as there has to be a starting point for a reclamation and renewal, I believe tribal identification to be necessary at this point.

    Keep in mind, the White Left will want NOTHING to do with any group that thus identifies, so there's the benefit of them self sorting OUT.
    "Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

    "Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

    Offline Weisshaupt

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    Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
    « Reply #13 on: September 07, 2016, 09:02:34 AM »
    Yeah I just want to make sure we adopt the Gadsen as our banner, and not something like this:



    Quote
    Thompson was proud to admit that “As a people we are fighting to maintain the heavenly ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause. Such a flag would be a suitable emblem of our young confederacy, and sustained by the brave hearts and strong arms of the south, it would soon take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations, and be hailed by the civilized world as THE WHITE MAN’S FLAG.”

     I thought about using the confederate flag in my first post instead of the hashtag example, but refrained  because I didn't wish to offend anyone here,  but after coming across this ( and verifying it)  this morning, I realized this flag is, in fact, the symbol of what I want to avoid.  The Confederate flag did indeed stand for defiance, freedom, self-determination and  States Rights, and those in the South have every right to feel proud of that part of it,  but it was also designed by a Racist White  Democrat to be the  banner of the White Tribe - a symbol of  limiting the extension of those principles and values we value to only those  whose  skin has less melanin content. .

    I would never try to stop someone from freely expressing their opinions by displaying one,  but the  confederate flag is a mixed bag. Perhaps a truer symbol of America as it was in reality  when first founded - imperfect in the application of our principles, mixed with the bad blood, wrongs, and prejudice  inherited from the old world via citizens who came from that world.

    As racial relations worsen, immigration remained unchecked , and more and more whites become the victims of assaults the government will do nothing about,   I think there will be a strong temptation to return to it, and your original sentiment about organizing upon racial lines. One of the Stories on Fran's site dealt with this -  where the loyal Black member of the  American Tribe  was rejected by  the militia fighting a race war - and I have no doubt that is exactly  what will happen in some places. I fear it will ultimately weaken us and strengthen the enemy. "Don't Tread on Me" - means  everyone.

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    Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
    « Reply #14 on: September 07, 2016, 09:10:34 AM »
    I understand your reluctance and objections, Weisshaupt, human nature being what it is.  However, please give a thought to those of 'other melanin content' who seem/ed to be with us, but at the first sign of opposition, have flipped to revert to racial tribe.  I am loathe to support, for elected office or otherwise, any who campaign or claim membership in any other tribe than American, but it happens often and it's always a disappointment.  In other words, I don't believe they can be trusted.

    "Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

    "Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

    Offline Weisshaupt

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    Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
    « Reply #15 on: September 07, 2016, 09:57:34 AM »
    Quote
    First, the Founders wrote our Documents in which they established those principles about law, freedom and justice for themselves and their posterity, essentially their descendants: WHO HAPPENED TO BE LARGELY  White Christians/agnostics.

    There. Fixed it for ya. America was founded using principles and morality based upon Christianity and the more general traditions of what we call Western Civilization. It doesn't follow that  those principles are reserved to White Christians.  The Founders preached tolerance  for those other ideas because the American Tribe at the time was so ridiculously dominant that these small minorities spouting nonsense posed little threat. 


    Quote
    The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason and right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination. - Thomas Jefferson on the First Amendment

    Quote
    Both house and ground were vested and in trustees, expressly for the use of any preacher of any religious persuasion who might desire to say something to the people at Philadelphia; the design in building not being to accommodate any particular sect, but the inhabitants in general; so that even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service. - Benjamin Franklin Autobiography


    Of course the founder's didn't  foresee a time when our Government would be actively using taxpayer dollars to deliberalty import adherents of religions whose principles are opposed to those of the American Tribe. Obviously those who don't accept our principles cannot become members of the American tribe- because the American tribe is BASED ENTIRELY on those principles. They are  the binding force, the thing we have in common that makes us a tribe.

    Quote
    Having written that, I don't largely disagree with the propositional nation theory, but as there has to be a starting point for a reclamation and renewal, I believe tribal identification to be necessary at this point.

    But what will be the basis of that identification?  Will being "white"  or being "Christian" be necessary for membership? We have a need to band together. But do we rally around the Gadsen or the Confederate flag?


    Quote
    Keep in mind, the White Left will want NOTHING to do with any group that thus identifies, so there's the benefit of them self sorting OUT.

    You make the mistake of thinking the Left has morals or principles. They simply don't. They are all narcissistic sociopaths. 

    And narcissistic  sociopaths  want only one thing - power over others.  If the way to get that is to become KKK leaders, they will do it . If they way to do it is to lie about their comrades in arms in  winter soldier testimony, they will do it.  If the way to do it is to slander a man over his taxes,  they will do it.  If the way to do it is to lie and tell you that you can keep you plan and doctor, then they will do it.  If the way to do it is to run servers in your bathroom and blame You Tube videos, they will do it.

    Anywhere there is a locus of power, they will swarm to it like moths. 

    The Democrats are and always have been the party of white supremacist racists with stars upon thars, and coloreds  are their favorite people to seek control over. Forming a tribe based on race will most likely attract liberals. They react viscerally to the Confederate flag only because it allows them to virtue signal their moral superiority to the herd, while bullying and controlling the expression of people who disagree.  If a preference cascade occurs and it appears the herd values whiteness, then they will gladly laud the Confederate flag as a symbol of virtue, and bully and control those who disagree.

    The Gadsen, on the other hand will repel them. It means that bullying and controlling others is off the table, and it offers them  nothing to satisfy tier narcissistic egos and craving to impose their will on others. ( Remember, "Live and Let live" is a philosophy that unfairly  imposes on them the  idea that "others aren't property")  True conservatism, or Traditional Americanism, or whatever label you want for it  - offers nothing to the narcissist

    Organizing on racial lines poses significant danger in my opinion - to our principles, our ability to succeed, and  probably to our immortal souls as well.



     

    « Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 10:29:20 AM by Weisshaupt »

    Offline Weisshaupt

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    Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
    « Reply #16 on: September 07, 2016, 10:00:48 AM »
    I understand your reluctance and objections, Weisshaupt, human nature being what it is.  However, please give a thought to those of 'other melanin content' who seem/ed to be with us, but at the first sign of opposition, have flipped to revert to racial tribe.  I am loathe to support, for elected office or otherwise, any who campaign or claim membership in any other tribe than American, but it happens often and it's always a disappointment.  In other words, I don't believe they can be trusted.

    They didn't trust the black guy in  the story for that reason..  but bottom line, you can't trust a person cause they are white either. In the absence of information and a high cost of knowledge, sure , go wit your gut, and trust the white guy. But if you do have the ability and time to make this judgement on better information,  Melanin content just isn't (and shouldn't be)  relevant in deciding who to trust.*

    * Void where prohibited by law.
    « Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 10:33:35 AM by Weisshaupt »

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    Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
    « Reply #17 on: September 07, 2016, 10:48:06 AM »
    Quote
    ... essentially their descendants: WHO HAPPENED TO BE LARGELY  White Christians/agnostics.

    No. Wrong.  You didn't fix it, you distorted it.  The descendants they were concerned with WERE White; none put stock in those from the other side of the blanket if there were any.

    Quote
    It doesn't follow that  those principles are reserved to White Christians.

    And I didn't write that they are; I was speaking specifically of the Founders.

    Quote
    But do we rally around the Gadsen or the Confederate flag?

    I do not hold the Confederate flag with opprobrium, regardless of its designers sentiments, rather I view it through the eyes of the Southerners to whom it, indeed, stood for "defiance, freedom, self-determination and  States Rights, and those in the South have every right to feel proud of that part of it".  Maybe one has to actually live in the South to get that, one's origins notwithstanding.  So, I'm fine with the Gadsden flag or no flag.  It ain't the GD flag that matters.

    We know who the Left is and how they manage to twist everything; I believe we'd 'see them coming'.

    Quote
    They didn't trust the black guy in  the story for that reason..  but bottom line, you can't trust a person cause they are white either. In the absence of information and a high cost of knowledge, sure , go wit your gut, and trust the white guy. But if you do have the ability and time to make this judgement on better information,  Melanin content just isn't (and shouldn't be)  relevant in deciding who to trust.*

    Yeah? Well, tell that to Black Lives Matters and LaRaza.  We have to organize a pushback against them because they're out for Whitey blood.  And did I write that just because someone is White, they should be automatically trusted.  No, so please stop straw-manning me here.

    As for "Organizing on racial lines poses significant danger in my opinion - to our principles, our ability to succeed, and  probably to our immortal souls as well", I'm not suggesting genocide here, I'm suggesting a beginning phase.  It's clear your mileage varies and that's fine.
    "Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

    "Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

    Offline Libertas

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    Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
    « Reply #18 on: September 07, 2016, 11:30:30 AM »
    Not to pile on, but...

    "There. Fixed it for ya. America was founded using principles and morality based upon Christianity and the more general traditions of what we call Western Civilization. It doesn't follow that  those principles are reserved to White Christians.  The Founders preached tolerance  for those other ideas because the American Tribe at the time was so ridiculously dominant that these small minorities spouting nonsense posed little threat."

    The Founding Principles are not reserved to any ethnic or religious group...they are completely color blind...but they are not blind to cults hostile to their very existence either!  I will argue with anybody willing to listen that Islam and Progressive ideology and militant atheism are cults and completely incompatible with Founding Principles!  It is the cultists who have to renounce and repent their hostile beliefs if they wish to enjoy the gift of our Founding Principles...if they cannot do that then I don't give a rats ass what color they are...they are OUT!  And if they attack me or my Principles, their lives are forfeit, period.


    H/T-WRSA

    Yes?

    PS - Is this color blind?  Religion blind?  Racist?

    http://iotwreport.com/caterpillar-hires-h-1b-foreign-graduates-fires-300-american-professionals/

    How about this?

    http://iotwreport.com/youve-come-a-long-way-baby-cal-state-offers-segregated-housing-for-blacks/

    But this is beyond offensive to snowflakes...



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    « Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 11:42:20 AM by Libertas »
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    Offline Glock32

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    Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
    « Reply #19 on: September 07, 2016, 01:02:10 PM »
    I'm past the point of pretending we can have a propositional color blind society.  If one truly implements a color blind society based entirely on individual merit, then the results are going to end up being highly disproportionate along, ta da, racial lines.  It will forever be a wellspring of grievances and you will end up with all the same social pathologies we currently enjoy.  Nevertheless, intellectual honesty requires me to always treat people as individuals, and I do.  I am just never surprised that my preconceived expectations are confirmed more often than not.

    I think the time for nuanced answers are over.  If white people as a biological group disappear, the whole of Western Civilization disappears too.  The progenitors of this civilization did not "happen to be" white people.  This civilization was the unique product of their intellectual and moral characteristics with a Christian operating system.  You could have instead put Africans, Arabs, or Chinese into the North American wilderness and they would have founded an entirely different sort of society.

    I think white people have made a pretty good effort at the color blind ideal, of welcoming different people and cultures as immigrants, and what we've achieved with all that is our imminent extinction.  Self-conscious tribalism is the only way to head that off now.  There is never going to be the anarcho-libertarian fantasy of multiple types of people all joined in unity by common ideals.  You can maybe pull that off in a particular time and place, but it hasn't the ability to transfer from one generation to the next -- in marked contrast to ethnic identity which is, literally, in the blood.  The multi-ethnic society will always have fault lines and grievances baked into the cake.
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