Author Topic: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done  (Read 3086 times)

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Online Weisshaupt

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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2016, 01:47:46 PM »

And I didn't write that they are; I was speaking specifically of the Founders.

You can go back as far as Locke's Letter on Tolerance -  The Founders were I am sure, primarily concerned with their own progeny, but I am still failing to see how its relevant or why you are mentioning it if you aren't asserting these principles were primarily for white Christians..

So, I'm fine with the Gadsden flag or no flag.  It ain't the GD flag that matters.

No, it  is what the flag symbolizes or represents that matters - it sets the standard that people rally around and support - what the movement is for, what its adherents believe. - and in fact the word "standard"  can be used anonymously  with "flag".  It serves as a form of  the public display that communicates to others that you are a supporter  of that movement - and your beliefs and actions  as a follower of that flag  both come from and feed back into that symbol. This TED talk shows in a simplified way how this comes about-- and the flag becomes the public face of what you are trying to accomplish.  In fact , it may be impossible to have a genuine movement without a flag or symbol of some kind, because you need that publicly visible aspect  to create the preference cascade among the frigging sheeple.


We know who the Left is and how they manage to twist everything; I believe we'd 'see them coming'.

While no one cares what the left would think, its best to not give them ammunition. But its a lot harder to make the case that the Gadson is racist than it is to make that case for the Confederate flag. Perhaps an entirely new symbol is needed, and if so, you can bet it will be created. You need some outward sign of tribal loyalty - be it a uniform,  it gang colors, insignia, tattoos or simply skin color.

Yeah? Well, tell that to Black Lives Matters and LaRaza.  We have to organize a pushback against them because they're out for Whitey blood. 

Those groups want to make their skin color the  tribal standard,  but that doesn't mean the organization pushing back need be arranged upon the same lines. Iconography does matter.


And did I write that just because someone is White, they should be automatically trusted.  No, so please stop straw-manning me here.

You said, "please give a thought to those of 'other melanin content' who seem/ed to be with us, but at the first sign of opposition, have flipped to revert to racial tribe." - This statement implied to me  that  those with the "same melanin content" wouldn't or didn't flip. I am sorry I misinterpreted it, but I am still failing to see how the melanin content matters. You are with us, or against us and we will know you as an enemy by your actions and words,  not by  your skin color (though in the absence of information and in an environment where  such  information comes at high risk or cost,  skin color might well provide a best guess)


I'm not suggesting genocide here, I'm suggesting a beginning phase.  It's clear your mileage varies and that's fine.

Beginnings are important, and you can't depend on changing things later. A movement and nations develop their own culture. What is acceptable in the beginning tends to get grandfathered in even  if something changes. . witness the 3/5s clause  if you need evidence of this, and our current problems pretty much prove that a civil war and an Amendment didn't solve it either. Old grievances die hard- especially when those who are trying to destroy you keep resuscitating them.

In the stories of the New American Republic on Fran's site, the new nation was mostly white and explicitly Christian, and maybe that is the way it has to be to save us. Maybe there are so many narcissistic sociopaths that victory can only be had by gaining their support by playing to their needs. . Maybe the Gadsen and "Liberty for all" is ultimately too  ineffective against the tide, where "liberty for White Christians" will work ( and I would argue a new symbol would be needed for that) .Will I take a White Christian New American Republic  over death and tyranny? Yes. Just as the Founders accepted an America with Slavery over no America at all.  That doesn't mean I would prefer it, and starting that way probably means it will stay that way.  I am not convinced yet that is the only course to victory, but I concede that perhaps it could be.

Online Weisshaupt

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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2016, 02:59:47 PM »
I'm past the point of pretending we can have a propositional color blind society.  If one truly implements a color blind society based entirely on individual merit, then the results are going to end up being highly disproportionate along, ta da, racial lines.  It will forever be a wellspring of grievances and you will end up with all the same social pathologies we currently enjoy.  Nevertheless, intellectual honesty requires me to always treat people as individuals, and I do.  I am just never surprised that my preconceived expectations are confirmed more often than not.

The trouble is getting the perception of a  "clean slate".. if that can be achieved  - and it probably can and will be - once the dollar collapses and everyone is reduced to poverty and suffering -  then you can't point back further and complain about what your father did to my father - or  at least not if you are intellectually honest - because everyone started at zero. But of course there are those who will not be intellectually honest, and they will ALWAYS be there ( more on that in a moment)

 I don't think the performance differences between races are endemic by birth or DNA,  or at least not so ingrained they can't be overcome (If you are American Indian - don't be dumb enough to drink and so on) . I think  performance differences are largely caused by culture and values. Thomas Sowell's Cultures series supports that hypothesis in more detail than I will recount here.  And as you point out the "white people's" success came largely from a Christian operating system, and I can guarantee that the first Christians were not white - just that the ones who weren't white ( and far away) were hunted to extinction by Mohammed and his tribe of barbarians.  The White people happened to be the ones who established a stronghold of Christianity  in Europe, and again I don't think that was because they were white (are Spaniards white? I am remembering something about Moors...) 
I believe the  Christian  OS can run on any human being that chooses to run it, unless one wants to try to make the case that some races are too inferior to run it.

I know Lincoln was not a saint but in this I think he was right

Quote
"Now I ask you in all soberness, if all these things, if indulged in, if ratified, if confirmed and endorsed, if taught to our children, and repeated to them, do not tend to rub out the sentiment of liberty in the country, and to transform this Government into a government of some other form.

"Those arguments that are made, that the inferior race are to be treated with as much allowance as they are capable of enjoying; that as much is to be done for them as their condition will allow. What are these arguments? They are the arguments that kings have made for enslaving the people in all ages of the world.

"You will find that all the arguments in favor of king-craft were of this class; they always bestrode the necks of the people, not that they wanted to do it, but because the people were better off for being ridden. That is their argument, and this argument of the Judge is the same old serpent that says you work and I eat, you toil and I will enjoy the fruits of it.

"Turn it whatever way you will---whether it come from the mouth of a King, an excuse for enslaving the people of his country, or from the mouth of men of one race as a reason for enslaving the men of another race, it is all the same old serpent." -- Abraham Lincoln. Speech at Chicago, Illinois | July 10, 1858

Self-conscious tribalism is the only way to head that off now.  There is never going to be the anarcho-libertarian fantasy of multiple types of people all joined in unity by common ideals.  You can maybe pull that off in a particular time and place, but it hasn't the ability to transfer from one generation to the next -- in marked contrast to ethnic identity which is, literally, in the blood. 

I agree that Self-conscious tribalism is required - I disagree that a tribe can only be based along racial differences   Jews aren't a race, but they are still considered an ethnicity.. because they share a common belief system based on a religion. And the liberals basically now have a ethnicity  based on shared narcissistic sociopathy  ( how many Jews are liberal and are happy to see Israel destroyed? Are they still Jews really?)  Islam is both a religion and a Political system, and it has persisted for centuries.  Why can there not be an ethic system based on an American political ideology? 

The multi-ethnic society will always have fault lines and grievances baked into the cake.

Humans will always find reasons to fight.   Every single  North American Indian tribe probably descended from a common group of ancestors, but yet they all formed distinct tribes and cultures, passed their ideals and traditions on for generations, warred with one another, enslaved one another, and yet  they were all part of the same race. Likewise Chinese and Japanese are both "Asian" but can certainly tell each other apart, and war with each other based on facial characteristics.One could conceive of tribes based on Eye Color (Aryans)  or Hair color ( Kill the soulless Gingers!) The human race is prone to faction  and we will invent a difference if one doesn't exist,  because it is by exploiting those differences that certain individuals can gain power for themselves.  Faction in ANY large human  society is simply inevitable. ANY and Every society has this baked into the cake, multi-ethnic or not. Simply the greater talents and resultant prosperity of a few is enough to create these divisions.   But there will always be a reason found to fight



Quote
By a faction, I understand a number of citizens, whether amounting to a majority or a minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adversed to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community.

There are two methods of curing the mischiefs of faction: the one, by removing its causes; the other, by controlling its effects.

There are again two methods of removing the causes of faction: the one, by destroying the liberty which is essential to its existence; the other, by giving to every citizen the same opinions, the same passions, and the same interests.

It could never be more truly said than of the first remedy, that it was worse than the disease. Liberty is to faction what air is to fire, an aliment without which it instantly expires. But it could not be less folly to abolish liberty, which is essential to political life, because it nourishes faction, than it would be to wish the annihilation of air, which is essential to animal life, because it imparts to fire its destructive agency.

The second expedient is as impracticable as the first would be unwise. As long as the reason of man continues fallible, and he is at liberty to exercise it, different opinions will be formed. As long as the connection subsists between his reason and his self-love, his opinions and his passions will have a reciprocal influence on each other; and the former will be objects to which the latter will attach themselves. The diversity in the faculties of men, from which the rights of property originate, is not less an insuperable obstacle to a uniformity of interests. The protection of these faculties is the first object of government. From the protection of different and unequal faculties of acquiring property, the possession of different degrees and kinds of property immediately results; and from the influence of these on the sentiments and views of the respective proprietors, ensues a division of the society into different interests and parties.

The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man; and we see them everywhere brought into different degrees of activity, according to the different circumstances of civil society. A zeal for different opinions concerning religion, concerning government, and many other points, as well of speculation as of practice; an attachment to different leaders ambitiously contending for pre-eminence and power; or to persons of other descriptions whose fortunes have been interesting to the human passions, have, in turn, divided mankind into parties, inflamed them with mutual animosity, and rendered them much more disposed to vex and oppress each other than to co-operate for their common good. So strong is this propensity of mankind to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts. But the most common and durable source of factions has been the various and unequal distribution of property. Those who hold and those who are without property have ever formed distinct interests in society. Those who are creditors, and those who are debtors, fall under a like discrimination. A landed interest, a manufacturing interest, a mercantile interest, a moneyed interest, with many lesser interests, grow up of necessity in civilized nations, and divide them into different classes, actuated by different sentiments and views. The regulation of these various and interfering interests forms the principal task of modern legislation, and involves the spirit of party and faction in the necessary and ordinary operations of the government.....t is in vain to say that enlightened statesmen will be able to adjust these clashing interests, and render them all subservient to the public good. Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm. Nor, in many cases, can such an adjustment be made at all without taking into view indirect and remote considerations, which will rarely prevail over the immediate interest which one party may find in disregarding the rights of another or the good of the whole.

The inference to which we are brought is, that the causes of faction cannot be removed, and that relief is only to be sought in the means of controlling its effects.

If a faction consists of less than a majority, relief is supplied by the republican principle, which enables the majority to defeat its sinister views by regular vote. It may clog the administration, it may convulse the society; but it will be unable to execute and mask its violence under the forms of the Constitution. When a majority is included in a faction, the form of popular government, on the other hand, enables it to sacrifice to its ruling passion or interest both the public good and the rights of other citizens. To secure the public good and private rights against the danger of such a faction, and at the same time to preserve the spirit and the form of popular government, is then the great object to which our inquiries are directed.

James Madison , Federalist #10

What we need is a tribe that viciously and jealously protects its principles and denies rights or protections  to those who do not adhere to the tribe's principles as Libertas suggested. .  Our original constitution was too open, and allowed the freedom for outsiders to live in our country, benefit from our laws , but live outside of our  tribe.  That has to stop. If you can't agree to the rule of law, that the constitution can only be changed via the consent of the governed, and that a government exists primary and foremost to secure the inalienable, individual rights of its citizens - then you should be denied the protection of that government, captured, and sold into slavery or killed  to teach you (and others) a lesson about the importance of  individual rights and freedom.  As I admitted to Pan, maybe that sort of unity can only occur with people of the same race and religion, but America did quite well without that for at least 100 years, and didn't start to suffer from external tribal forces until the Civil war.  I think Madison is right, that there is a solution to faction in the sort of government he set up, but for any constitutional government to work  everyone has to follow the rules in the constitution, and the old republic's constitution did not  enforce the perpetuation of those cultural teachings well enough.  They could be passed down, and perpetuated,  I think, even in a multi-ethnic society.

The problem isn't the color of a person's skin. Its just not.  Its the refusal to join our tribe, and instead to perpetuate another culture/tribe  within  our borders  - like a parasite- till it bursts and destroys the host.. . Because that is what happened. Our culture was infected. Both from within and without. There is proof the Russians deliberately infected it. And our own laws and beliefs prevented us from cutting out the cancer, and we were forced to let it grow.

We simply need to alter the deal.  If you can't recognize the rights of others  you have no claim to rights of your own. If you deny laws need the consent of the governed, then no law protects you. If you reject  the original limits of our government, and wish to change them without amendment,  then the country should reject you as a despot.  And that needs to be written right into the Constitution as a form of Treason.  If you don't run the American Freedom via  Constitutional Republic OS,  you are deemed a virus and deleted. ( and if that means Genocide within our borders, I am okay with it.)  "American"  needs to become an ethnicity.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 03:36:03 PM by Weisshaupt »

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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2016, 07:06:14 PM »
Quote
Posted by: Weisshaupt ...



 ;D

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Online Weisshaupt

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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2016, 08:09:39 PM »




I have that one framed on my office wall.

And no, I don't think you or  Glock are "wrong". In fact we know from many years of history that you are both right -  A tribe formed on Racial and Religious lines will unquestionably be possible. 
I am merely arguing my case that there may be a different and better way that is more in line with the philosophical principles of the founders and the  experiment the Founders began based on those beliefs. 

"Its a Republic, if you can keep it."  We couldn't .  So the original needs to be augmented in some way. If we win a war, we will face these questions directly just as the founders did. If we don't,  then we need to figure out if and how we will survive - even if its as some protected minority like the Amish, or in some enclave like an indian reservation.

Perhaps both scenarios can be accommodated by requiring a homogeneous ethnic makeup and a loose religious conformity. Maybe that will be more stable because it gives the narcissistic  bullies something to do other than tear down the society, since there is a nice, defined "other"  based on simple and easily identifiable characteristics they can go harass ( if we win)   or blame ( if we loose)

So can "American" become an ethnicity? Can our ideological positions be tribalized  so they foremost define us as a group and as a people? Is it impossible to have a largely open and free multi-religious,  mutli-cultural and multi ethnic society  as a republic , and what evidence suggests that such a endeavor  is doomed to failure no matter what. Was Madison incorrect when he described the causes of faction and the remedy for them?
Can we have a society where you are American first, and whatever else, after - where individuals accept American principles above any beliefs held upon ethnic, religious or racial lines? Or does that leave us too vulnerable to divide and conqueror attacks that highlight and exacerbate our differences?  Is there a way that could be combated socially -  perhaps with  education or ritual? A shared rite of passage perhaps? Something along the lines of Bill Whittle's three an half days perhaps?

The founders thought about this stuff - a lot. And they got it wrong.  Do we give up on the experiment completely, or are there sacrifices we need to make in the principles to make it work? I think its important that we discuss these things so we understand the options and directions we can go in, and understand the ramifications of a given choice.   Later, there might not be the time or luxury to think this through.

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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2016, 09:18:42 PM »
Wrong, in quotation marks?

Weisshaupt, compromising or sacrificing principles never works; I know you know that.  Perhaps we should start by defining our principles.  One of -- no, my Chief Principle is Truth.  Face the Truth and work from there.  What I believe is Truth is a multi-ethnic society doesn't work in the long run.  Ever.  People want to be with their own, and twisting or trying to redefine "own" -- as in, an American Tribe, an American ethnicity -- isn't going to work.  Because it hasn't, despite us giving it our best shot.

As I wrote previously, your mileage may vary and that's okay.  I'm done with this in any case.
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Online Weisshaupt

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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2016, 12:26:09 AM »
Wrong, in quotation marks?

"Wrong" - as in quoted from the cartoon you posted. Its fine if you are done discussing it, but I would like you to consider my words.

Weisshaupt, compromising or sacrificing principles never works; I know you know that.  Perhaps we should start by defining our principles.  One of -- no, my Chief Principle is Truth.  Face the Truth and work from there.  What I believe is Truth is a multi-ethnic society doesn't work in the long run.  Ever. People want to be with their own, and twisting or trying to redefine "own" -- as in, an American Tribe, an American ethnicity -- isn't going to work.  Because it hasn't, despite us giving it our best shot.

So the same goes for a Republic then as well? None of those has ever "worked" either, and we gave this last one our best shot as well...and Madison failed to control the faction problem so we should give up.. right?  Or did Madison's check fail because Government became too Centralized and politics too polar for his check to work??

I am an engineer - first designs often fail. You figure out why, figure out how to address the issue and you try again. Or if the thing can't be fixed, you work around the expected failure  by creating backups, checks  and redundant systems that work in the interim allowing time for the failure to be corrected. yes, human nature is the largest expected failure point in any political  system,  and I am not suggesting we change that. But we can't consider others our own because of ideology? 

I consider you and everyone here "one of my own", because ideologically we want the same things- we both value individual  freedom, the rule of law, and "live and let live" ethics  but what I am hearing is that if I now  reveal myself to be black man, you won't reciprocate the sentiment? If I showed up post collapse in your little town, I wouldn't be welcomed in your enclave? What about the Sicilian? What if someone else in your enclave doesn't consider him "white" enough?  I can't believe that is actually what you mean here.. what bonds people together in a meaningful way is shared tradition, shared experiences ,and shared beliefs, and that is all I am talking about with the American tribe. I don't think I have to twist anything to call everyone here one of my own.



The Left hasn't had a problem with multiculturalism - to the point where they are totally illogical and suicidal  about it - Feminists side with Islamic Terrorists who would genetically mutilate them and lock them in an apartment wearing a burka. Gays side with Muslims who would throw them off of buildings. Jews side with Terrorists to who intend to destroy Israel and every Jew they find. Blacks make threats against the same police who patrol their own neighborhoods to protect them from other blacks.  They reject their own identities  because of their ideology - their belonging to the Master Tribe of enlightened philosophers called Liberals trumps any other concerns.. hell they are even getting Whites to deny and apologize for their whiteness in order to become "good allies" of the enlightened philosopher tribe. 

I don't see any reason why those who believe in liberty  can't do the same thing, and have the same devotion to what they believe in to protect it by denying the liberals their rights, just as their tribe intends to do to us. Our mistake has been in treating them civilly - as equals - as fellow tribe members -when they have as little intention of getting along as the Muslims will when the leftist sheep are finally delivered into their hands.  Allowing them to remain united, while allowing them to divide us isn't going to work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23X14HS4gLk

 

Offline Libertas

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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2016, 07:10:57 AM »
I think Weisshaupt likes nuance and argument...just a wild guess on my part...might be some retentiveness there, which I can relate too.

I don't think we have to get hung up on race at all, it is going to sort itself out as Pan and Glock mentioned...white folks cherishing Liberty are not going to have to adopt any of the old trappings or pander to attract anybody to the cause nor will they overtly repel anybody...those of "color" who do not share the same zeal for Liberty as we do and who still cling to race-centric views are going to out themselves...there is not going to be any special status afforded anyone merely because of their skin color, there is not going to be any PC bullsh*t, there isn't going to be any quotas, there isn't going to be any handouts, there isn't going to be any of that sh*t!  But there will be Liberty for any and all who abide by Founding Principles.  We'll find out pretty fast who is genuinely honest in their beliefs, isn't that really all that matters?

I like things simple...Principles make than possible.

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Online Weisshaupt

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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2016, 08:06:20 AM »
I don't think we have to get hung up on race at all, it is going to sort itself out as Pan and Glock mentioned......white folks cherishing Liberty are not going to have to adopt any of the old trappings or pander to attract anybody to the cause nor will they overtly repel anybody...those of "color" who do not share the same zeal for Liberty as we do and who still cling to race-centric views are going to out themselves...

Maybe I had a stroke and my brain isn't functioning correctly, but I am pretty sure what I am reading here is that Pan and Glock are going to start clinging to their own race-centric views and will be doing some sorting on that basis. No, I am not sure they are wrong to do so, nor am I thinking ill of them, and I support their right to make such decisions about who they will associate with...  but yes it disturbs me - not because I like to argue ( a compulsive disorder for sure)  - but because of what that potentially means in the bigger picture. There aren't many liberty lovers left and I fear we will need every last one of them in the coming days, plus the idea is an rejection of  conservative principles liberty lovers have  held since Locke's letter on Toleration. Maybe I should  put my money on that stroke.
 

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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2016, 11:28:03 AM »
Yeah I didn't read it that they were going to start the sorting, just that those wanting (as a result of their own foolishness) to be sorted out would present themselves (primarily because as fools they cannot help themselves) for culling.  I don't think anybody is eagerly awaiting open season on people just because of their skin color...but that is not to say there isn't any eagerness for open season on all manner of Progs, punks and cultists of all races...I think we'll all be equal opportunity dispatchers of domestic enemies.  Nor do I particularly see it as a bad thing if people want to reclaim their Judeo-Christian heritage that was shared by our Founders...if some see that as inherently "white", so what?  I don't think anybody is going to don white sheets and hoods and anybody equating that with Founding Principles and Judeo-Christian heritage are the ones in error, not us.  The beauty of the Founders and their vision of Liberty is that people outside of the Judeo-Christian heritage can enjoy the benefits of that society...so long as they are not undermining it...anybody guilty of the latter is incompatible with true Liberty and should be expelled from our midst no matter their race.
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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2016, 12:57:54 PM »
Perhaps I was absent that day but it seems to me that it's been the status quo who have been doing the melanin-based sorting for us (or perhaps to us). I live in a significantly diverse community which means exposure to a wide range of ethnic groups. The fraud that is multiculturalism informs me quite frankly that everyone is entitled to celebrate their heritage and culture.....except you pesky white devils.

This RWNJ was taught by my parents to be largely colorblind. It was only through immersion into liberal dominated environments that I was treated to systemic institutional racism. Despite decades of (small "l") libertarianism that leaned on the notion of "Ill do my thing - you do yours" I've learned that if I didn't watch my own butt no one was going to watch if for me.

As for "race-centric" views, I think I'm gonna need someone to teach me what "white-views" look like cuz that isn't anything that I was ever exposed to. I don't view the world through colored lenses like blacks and latinos do.

Offline Libertas

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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2016, 05:18:08 PM »
Perhaps I was absent that day but it seems to me that it's been the status quo who have been doing the melanin-based sorting for us (or perhaps to us). I live in a significantly diverse community which means exposure to a wide range of ethnic groups. The fraud that is multiculturalism informs me quite frankly that everyone is entitled to celebrate their heritage and culture.....except you pesky white devils.

This RWNJ was taught by my parents to be largely colorblind. It was only through immersion into liberal dominated environments that I was treated to systemic institutional racism. Despite decades of (small "l") libertarianism that leaned on the notion of "Ill do my thing - you do yours" I've learned that if I didn't watch my own butt no one was going to watch if for me.

As for "race-centric" views, I think I'm gonna need someone to teach me what "white-views" look like cuz that isn't anything that I was ever exposed to. I don't view the world through colored lenses like blacks and latinos do.

I'm whichu...

But uhh, I dunno, maybe "white-views" look like this?

http://www.weaselzippers.us/293796-white-week-fliers-prompt-protest-investigation-on-kentucky-campus/

 ::ohno::

OMG, poor oppressed peeps-o-color living in such tyranny and oppression!  Honestly, I don't know wtf they are doing here...the message never ends, hate and harrassment everywhere, nothing ever changes...you'd think they'd flee to safer harbors, eh?

WTF is wrong with these people?  Maybe they like the abuse...fear of fleeing and having not a damned thing to bitch about, eh?

I mean the outright vicious racism is everywhere!  Look?!  They named a parasite, a blood fluke flatworm, Baracktrema obamai after our beloved black prez, and by distant relatives no less!

Is there no shame?  How long must these people endure such oppression before fleeing?!  Are they stupid or what?!

 ::laughonfloor::


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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2016, 07:10:47 PM »
My position is based on this: there is a clear and present danger to the continued existence of Western Civilization.  Resistance against those carrying out this destruction must be packaged in some sort of cultural vehicle that resonates with people.  Traditional conservative political parties have failed pretty badly and proven themselves incapable of being that vehicle.  So what is getting traction instead?  The nascent neo-nationalism we see sprouting in Europe.  It's getting traction because it pushes some button built into populations.  It doesn't even require focus grouping or educating people on a party platform.  Is it just collectivism of another sort?  Perhaps.  I don't see other efforts working as well though, and we're in the 11th hour already.

We are now in the era of post-conservatism.  The Alt-Right gets this.  I'm reminded of something they tell you when you're training for self-defense, combat, or other types of emergency response: you will always fall back on your training rudiments.  In particular a lot of martial training emphasizes gross motor skills over finesse, the theory being that in distress gross movements are easier to accomplish.  I think the Culture War is similar.  People aren't resonating with the editorial board at the National Review, but they are resonating with "this is my nation, these are my people."
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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2016, 08:09:19 PM »
Traditional conservative political parties have failed pretty badly and proven themselves incapable of being that vehicle.

Well no. There has been a group of people pretending to be conservative and running a conservative party who were in fact fully owned and controlled by  the enemies of western civilization. There may be reasons and problems with conservatives in general  why that was allowed to go on so long, but an actual conservative party hasn't really been tried because we had this fake bs one people supported instead of starting a new real  one. 


  So what is getting traction instead?  The nascent neo-nationalism we see sprouting in Europe.  It's getting traction because it pushes some button built into populations.  It doesn't even require focus grouping or educating people on a party platform.  Is it just collectivism of another sort?  Perhaps.  I don't see other efforts working as well though, and we're in the 11th hour already.

Yes,  the button is "belonging" 

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  People aren't resonating with the editorial board at the National Review, but they are resonating with "this is my nation, these are my people."

"our nation and our people"  - as Mal said to Simon- That doesn't include you unless I conjure it does.

But until you define those terms, and explicitly state what they mean in terms of behavior and beliefs,   anyone can fill in the blank to satisfy themselves. It may be helpful in winning elections, but its also dangerous depending on what those terms eventually get defined as. In NAZI Germany they got defined as Aryan, and if you didn't fit that description..  watch out.  Patriotism is a tool for uniting  people under a common standard - but it matters what that standard is --   point it the wrong way and it becomes a weapon - and  in many ways it relies on having someone to point it at to be effective.  And sure, there are illegals and Islamic people who deserve it, but there will be many more who don't. There will be collateral damage and you will turn away people who could have been allies.
And perhaps that is necessary for us to successfully protect "our nation and our people"  - however that is defined.  Its the definition we end up with that I fear.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 08:13:56 PM by Weisshaupt »

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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2016, 09:24:09 PM »
Quote
Its the definition we end up with that I fear.

I have felt that sort of fear, not for where we end up, but how we get there.

White people are already being hunted, harassed and discriminated against.  So, what's your move?
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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2016, 11:25:29 PM »
It doesn't matter, because it has already been decided for us.  Every other group of people already thinks and acts tribal.  When they perceive themselves threatened as in a post-collapse world, their tribal identity will only intensify.  It's like what happens inside prisons. I'm prepared to accept the reality of this arrangement.  It must be why there are different tribes in the first place.

I was for a long time prepared to believe in the creedal nation, but look what has resulted from it.  Every variety of non-white has been organized and made militant against the hated white man.  It will always be so. Trying to make it work is so much pissing in the wind.  We knew what our "American nation" looked like prior to 1965.  It's why immigration law specifically favored compatible immigrants, mostly from Europe.  It's been the virtual inverse of that since 1965 and now instead of an American nation we have dozens of nations that happen to exist on the land mass called the USA. Frankly, it's fanciful to expect to meld them all into a single national identity based on veneration of the Founding Fathers. That ship long since sailed.

Something has changed with my perception of things.  I think a lot of it has to do with the invasion of Europe.  The Camp of Saints used to be a fictional reference that seemed increasingly likely, until suddenly it's no longer just likely but actual reality.  The Founder's Republic is dead and not coming back.  That admission has now, for me, called into question the purpose of conservatism.  What's the point anymore?  Another site put it well: "Conservatism couldn't even conserve the women's bathroom"  American Conservatism...50 years of failure.  I'm more interested now in figuring out how to establish a human seed vault so that civilization might germinate again some day.
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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2016, 07:18:56 AM »
Quote
Its the definition we end up with that I fear.

I have felt that sort of fear, not for where we end up, but how we get there.

White people are already being hunted, harassed and discriminated against.  So, what's your move?

I think Weisshaupt is looking for something pristine...but it's like looking really hard to find that one little flower growing out of a gigantic mound of crap...there's going to be weeds...I don't know what he thinks the right answer is and we can have him address that if he can but to me and I am guessing to you and Glock and others it probably doesn't matter.  I told people 20 years ago and have ever since said that if this country ever imploded it would make the breakup of the former Yugoslavia look like a Boy Scout Jamboree...the relentless demonizing of our heritage, the non-stop denigration of the Principles and morals that made this nation the envy of the world, the systematic progressive conditioning, the cowardice of the only available so-called opposition party, the hatred directed at whites and especially white males, the complicity of the press and crony capitalists, all of that crap...decades and lifetimes worth of bullsh*t people have had to navigate...is going to release megatons of suppressed angst...and there will be excesses, how can there not be?  The Progs, Pubbies, Press, Cronys and Criminals have left us no other choice...it is surrender to them...or something else.  I think the time for somebody to tap into that energy, translate it into any kind of movement with a means to reverse course before it is too late and restore the Republic to its Founding Principles and Founding Heritage has passed.  Our shot was the Reagan Revolution...and it was hijacked by E-GOP operatives and nothing challenged it...except for the Tea Party for a brief moment, but then it's fractured leadership combined with E-GOP vindictiveness and statist thuggery by the Obama Regime killed it.  I have no illusions about Trump or what a Trump administration will accomplish...bottom line it buys time and maybe puts a few more wrinkles in the narrative making it harder for the statists when the shat hits the fan.  But when the snap comes...sh*t will happen...we'll all be very very tribal.  What coalesces afterward?  Who knows.  That's where Glock's "human seed vault" comes into play.  Hopefully the predominant strain in these vaults produces a society that once again values Liberty as we and our distant Founders understand it.  Some of us may find out, many of us will not...but if I fall in the latter category...I hope I fought for those that do.
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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2016, 07:32:48 AM »
Good post, Libertas, and Glock's as well.
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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2016, 11:17:28 AM »
White people are already being hunted, harassed and discriminated against.  So, what's your move?

To continue prepping for the things I can't avoid, and getting ready to give aid to insurrectionists, and what little force I can provide to the initiative while defending the borders of mine and my neighbor's property.  If race war against conservative Americans who happen to be Hispanics is going to happen, then my community is already lost.

It doesn't matter, because it has already been decided for us.  Every other group of people already thinks and acts tribal.  When they perceive themselves threatened as in a post-collapse world, their tribal identity will only intensify.  It's like what happens inside prisons. I'm prepared to accept the reality of this arrangement.  It must be why there are different tribes in the first place.

I agree.  This is exactly why I think ex-pats are going to be in trouble post SHTF. -

Perhaps we need a few definitions, because I think words like "Tribe", "Ethnicity", "Race","Creed"  and "Culture" are being used almost interchangeably. They are related, but they aren't the same.

Tribes are groups of people in a mono-culture  usually related by blood ( but not always)   and those organizations are communistic and cohesion depends on  personal knowledge of others and whom you can depend on.

Ethnicity - identification of a cultural tradition "inherent" in an individual  based on genealogy.


A Person of  South African Heritage

Race -  Merriam Webster actually has this : "a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics" as a possible definition along with "a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock" -- but basically I think for the purposes of this discussion, I think it can be summed up by  sorting  humans into a category via a particular set of visual cues.



A member of the Black Race.

Culture  - A collection of rules, values, traditions, rituals and beliefs shared and practiced  by a group of people.

Creed - essentially  the  rules, values and beliefs of a culture ( which may imply rituals and traditions)

The Pictures,  while meant to be humorous,  also point out that Race and Ethnicity are - of their nature - subjective.
What is Obama's ethnicity?

Did you think "Black"? But his Mom was white. Can you choose his ethnicity by looking at him? Or can he choose it for himself? Do we decide after seeing how he acts - and which set of cultural norms he adheres to?   Can  "Leftist A-hole" be considered an Ethnicity  or a culture?

Hitler Used Race BECAUSE its ambiguous.  He could arrest anyone he wanted, accuse them of Jewish Blood and Bingo! Now he is an enemy of the State.  Even if he was blond and blue eyed.

I was for a long time prepared to believe in the creedal nation, but look what has resulted from it.

This seems to imply you think a nation based on Creed will not work.  The Catholic Church was basically the default Government of Europe for Centuries, able to muster an army from kingdoms and City-states all over the continent - sure they were "white" - but they were not of the same ethnicity- they had different cultures and traditions, and had only the Creed of the Catholic church in common.. . .  Likewise early Islamic Caliphates covered huge areas, integrated many different tribal customs, but Islam was the creed that bound them together ( at sword point of course)   The Jews considered themselves a Nation without a country for much of their history - in much the same way  as we refer to Indian Tribes as nations. And the Jews are multi racial - its passed through the mother. 


Every variety of non-white has been organized and made militant against the hated white man.  It will always be so. Trying to make it work is so much pissing in the wind. 

Even within in a tribe they fought over who would lead, and there were intrigues and betrayals-  particularity if the tribe became large enough - say 200-300 members when personal knowledge of everyone in the tribe was no longer possible -  those groups would splinter. They may make alliances etc, but they were no longer a single tribe. .

China was conquered how many times, but how many different tribes and clans? Do you think there is such a thing as a genetically pure "Chinese" but do we doubt that  the China is a nation or Stable as a culture? Are they pissing in the wind and have been for millennia?

It will always be true  that group  differences will be arbitrarily seized upon and exploited to sow dissent and carve  out an area of power within any human sociological structure -  If its not skin color, it will be eye color, or hair color, or cheekbone structure, or ass size, or tattoos.



But its not a given that every culture will succumb to such attacks. China remained culturally Chinese, no matter who conquered them. The real question is how they managed to do it.  The point is that Multi-race and multi-ethnic societies have been formed and have lasted for years -and I think that happens when the Creed is loose and local areas are left alone to practice what sub-cultures they wish. Is the centralization of power and vast treasuries to be looted that provide the incentives for one-size fits all legislation and the payments of tributes to subcultures out of the public funds.   The White Man - having formed the systems and culture that allowed him to become prosperous and successful makes him the target for looting by all of the creeds, clans, cultures and tribes who are less successful.

Quote
“Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.

This is known as "bad luck.”

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Our skin color is just the excuse. Its not the cause.

It's been the virtual inverse of that since 1965 and now instead of an American nation we have dozens of nations that happen to exist on the land mass called the USA. Frankly, it's fanciful to expect to meld them all into a single national identity based on veneration of the Founding Fathers. That ship long since sailed.

It failed because we allowed people of a different and conflicting creed to settle and prosper here, and then allowed power to become more and more centralized. No, I understand that these others  will not join our creed. They aren't Americans in anything but a geographic sense.

 Islam is such a creed, but not at the moment the most threatening one--  that would be the creed of the Left-- because they have created a system  - like that  of the Catholic Church in the Dark ages - where you can be ethnic,  as long as you don't commit heresy.  Commit Heresy and you are an Uncle Tom, an inauthentic Gay, not a real woman, not a good White Ally  and so forth. You can be whatever you want to be - even the opposite sex - as long as you are liberal and support the liberal herd agenda.    The left  tied and enforced  ethnic identity in such a way that it entails  being a Good liberal. The Right FAILED to do this when the new immigrants - and we allowed the non -immigrants to be recruited into other creeds and tribes.  Its not that such an organization is impossible,  its that our principles made it repugnant to us to force our principles upon others living next to us.  That is the flaw. One the Left doesn't share.

 We are not under attack from blacks, we are under attack from Statists who happen to identify as black. The Blacks are just the paid by  EBT shock troops on the front lines. 
We will either destroy them or they  destroy us and then themselves  -through the same divisions and creed  they have promoted .

The Founder's Republic is dead and not coming back.  That admission has now, for me, called into question the purpose of conservatism.  What's the point anymore?  Another site put it well: "Conservatism couldn't even conserve the women's bathroom"  American Conservatism...50 years of failure.  I'm more interested now in figuring out how to establish a human seed vault so that civilization might germinate again some day.

Yes. The Republic is Dead.  Does that mean Christian Morality changes?  Because that is still where the  principles of the former United States originated. The GOP betrayed us,  they didn't defend the woman's bathroom, because like Benedict Arnold they were planning all along to to surrender it to the enemy. Conservatives failed to demand real leadership, and failed to fight well in the culture wars,  but that doesn't mean the ideas behind them were wrong. It means that they allowed their own civility ( and laziness ) to hamper their ability to protect themselves and their creed.  Its like when the Liberals were going on about Bush breaking the Geneva Convention rules wen we weren't even fighting a Nation that had signed them. Hell - they  did not even wear uniforms- but the left demanded we treat them as if they had. . The left was very successful following Alkinski's dictate to make us live up to our own rules. And we let them.  Our principles didn't fail- we turned the other cheek too many times. Way past Seven times Seventy.

And yes in the coming conflict we are going to have to rely on tribe - a group of people we know and trust, with whom we will knowingly share our effort and resources, wit confidence that others in the group will do the same. If you live in an area where you can select members that are all white,  or all with blue eyes,  or all with red hair, or all with stars upon thars, and still successfully survive and create that seedbank, then  more power to you. ( but then I do wonder what seeds you are trying to preserve)   In my area, if it becomes a race war DESPITE the fact we share a common creed, we will  be wiped out by each other and the  Statist forces will do everything they can to exacerbate that conflict. .  They would love it if my little rural conservative town tore itself apart over our skin color, and they could just come in, mop up and seize the farmland.


I think Weisshaupt is looking for something pristine...but it's like looking really hard to find that one little flower growing out of a gigantic mound of crap...there's going to be weeds...I don't know what he thinks the right answer is and we can have him address that if he can but to me and I am guessing to you and Glock and others it probably doesn't matter. 

The right answer for me is and always will be individual freedom and individual merit. Yes, its a natural and instinctual human tendency  to bond with others over superficial physical characteristics. Its also a natural and instinctual human tendency  to kill "the other". Heck its a natural and instinctual human tendency  to break all 10 Commandments and behave little better than an Animal in the wild.  Civilization is largely about suppressing and harnessing those tendencies- first for a greater chance of survival and then for a greater chance of prosperity and happiness. If the goal is to preserve Civilization,  you aren't doing it by going back to primitive definitions of the other based on physical characteristics.  Its easy. It will work.  It feels right.   So does sleeping with your neighbors wife if you  have no moral compass.

is going to release megatons of suppressed angst...and there will be excesses, how can there not be? 

Of of the hardest things to do is a war is not loose what  you are fighting for ( civilization)  in a wholly uncivilized environment ( war)
But I have noticed if you don't aim at a target, or don't ever hit the mark. You probably won't even come close.


  I think the time for somebody to tap into that energy, translate it into any kind of movement with a means to reverse course before it is too late and restore the Republic to its Founding Principles and Founding Heritage has passed.

You can't restore the republic. Its gone. We can start a new one someday, possibly.  The truths are self-evident. Even if we are all wiped out, they can be rediscovered,  and at some point a fertile ground will present itself -- if just via chance or human error in a police state. It would be better, however, if what we have learned and the tale of our failure be part of the  seeds we preserve so the future can learn from it, as the founders attempted to learn from  failures in Greece, Rome and elsewhere. I am not yet willing to call it quits on these ideas. 

Part of what we are fighting here is the fact that the only people have a use for Liberty are that segment of the population who need it because they think for themselves. At least 1/3 and possibly 2/3s of the human race are simply happy to follow orders, live in a tribal group and feel like the belong. "Baaa. Baaaa. I am a Sheep! That's Awesome. I am a sheep too! Baaa"  The tribe keeps them safe. As long as they do as others do,  they sink or swim together, and they are fine with that.  They read the Declaration of Independence and they DO NOT UNDERSTAND why anyone would risk their life to fight the government. For liberty? The Kardashians  are on,  and my house is warm, an I have a dinner in the oven.  What is your problem? Cavemen don't want liberty- they want comfort.  Liberty is a esoteric civilized concept based on individuals.. and cavemen  identity- as far as they are aware of having one-- is completely tribal.  And I think this is where Pan and Glock's understanding of te situation come from..  that because 2/3 of the human race is this dull sort of animal, and  you can't beat em - you can't get them to understand your creed because they are incapable of doing so,  so you give up and  join them on the basis of something they CAN understand.

 America probably only came about because a mass migration to a new land gave  those with the need for freedom from the herd a way  to find it. The Sheep had no interest in colonization - its hard, and you need to think for yourself to survive because you are encountering new challenges and new problems that the Herd rules won't necessarily get you through. But once colonized, and prosperity reigns,  the comfort seeking cavemen show up in droves. But the freedom seekers - that small minority Heinlein talks about - are the ones who ave always pushed forward and tried new things - they need the freedom to do so -- and as a survival trait every herd of humans has that "nutjob" who won't conform who suddenly discovers this Fire thingy, invents a tool, or eventually invents a Constitutional Republic. Those people are your tribe. You aren't like those "other humans"  ( And I bet every one of you has used that phrase at least in your minds)

We  are living in the largest conglomeration of Free-Thinking humans ever assembled on this planet - descended by an even larger population of free thinkers who fled Europe and other places - I think that is the seedbank that we need to preserve though this, and it doesn't come in a certain color, a certain ethnicity, and not all of them have stars upon thars.  But You meet them individually , and you know though, don't you? And that is the point -  your tribe -  - contains people you know and trust. You select them based on Merit - on the skills they bring, on what they can contribute to the group. Or  one  can pick them by color or some other characteristic , and hope the two are correlated well enough for that to work.

Offline Libertas

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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2016, 12:18:07 PM »

We  are living in the largest conglomeration of Free-Thinking humans ever assembled on this planet - descended by an even larger population of free thinkers who fled Europe and other places - I think that is the seedbank that we need to preserve though this, and it doesn't come in a certain color, a certain ethnicity, and not all of them have stars upon thars.  But You meet them individually , and you know though, don't you? And that is the point -  your tribe -  - contains people you know and trust. You select them based on Merit - on the skills they bring, on what they can contribute to the group. Or  one  can pick them by color or some other characteristic , and hope the two are correlated well enough for that to work.

Well your are just begging for statistics, aren't you?  Well, I am not going to chase after specifics, so...let's play with loose generalities for arguments sake.

I don't disagree with any of the above...but you seem stuck on race...or you think others are...either way...to the point: I, as a Liberty-centric Founders-revering believer in the Almighty and our God-given rights and the morality of my Judeo-Christian upbringing have always and still to this day judge each and every person I meet according to their character and merit.  I will either be the best friend you will ever have...or your worst nightmare...people do have it within their ability to choose which is more desirable to witness.  Having said that...there are certain traits that, well, let's just say they stick out and they will surface rather quickly without much prodding...I don't know what tack others may choose, but if I encounter someone hostile to Liberty...they better high-tail it outta my sight faster than bullets fly.  Some of these traits may be telegraphed in advance by indiscreet self-advertising, some advertising may be more subtle than others...these are what may be termed "indicators" putting a Liberty-centric person on crosshair mode...and it is entirely possible these indicators can have direct racial relationships...pc-oriented types who will soon be culled from the seed bank call this "profiling".  It is going to happen.  Now, what percentage of certain ethnic groups exhibit the signs and traits we are talking about...who cares?  I'm not interested in numbers, just probabilities so that I can protect me and mine.  Others can fuss over ethnicity...I'll fuss over survival. 
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Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2016, 01:18:01 PM »
I think the conclusion you can draw from this back and forth is that we are entering the Undiscovered Country.  Nobody knows how things are going to go.  It's speculation, some of it informed by history and some of it nothing more than a wild ass guess.

To Libertas' point:

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"Some of these traits may be telegraphed in advance by indiscreet self-advertising, some advertising may be more subtle than others...these are what may be termed "indicators" putting a Liberty-centric person on crosshair mode...and it is entirely possible these indicators can have direct racial relationships"

i.e.  that there is likely to be overlap between desirable mental/moral traits and racial traits, that is what I think will always represent a unique problem in multiracial societies.  It won't go unnoticed if the people you deem as having desirable mental and moral traits just so happen to be mostly white people, while a disproportionate number of undesirables just so happen to be black.  It's the gift that will keep on giving to provocateurs and other sh*t-stirrers.  And would the grievances be limited just to those who have been deemed undesirable?  What about the blacks who have been accepted as having quality mental and moral traits, will they be fine with accepting that they're a lucky outlier?  Or will they feel aggrieved on behalf of their fellow blacks who were rejected, and work to manipulate the "tribe" so that membership is broadened for their sake?  It's true that sh*t-stirrers can find or invent fault lines in any nation, even an homogeneous one, but it's vastly easier in societies that are obviously heterogeneous.

Nobody knows how this is going to go.  What I do know is that it's going to be much uglier and bloodier than it needed to be, and that is entirely because the Left was hellbent on initiating our civilization's self-destruct mechanism and it is now too late to override.

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