Topic: Obama, in a petulant toddler tantrum...cuts off dialogue with Russia over Syria

[Libertas]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_UNITED_STATES_RUSSIA_SYRIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2016-10-03-13-41-42

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-10-03/u-s-russian-ties-crumble-under-weight-of-syria-nuclear-pact

Obama is such a little pansy!  Why piss away national credibility (whatever is left of it if it is above zero) on a nation we have no business being involved in...especially when our involvement is ARMING AND SUPPORTING BATSHYT JIHADI TRASH?!

What a joke...Obama the walking diaper-stain is doing everything possible to make this worse, make sure crazies have their way and to make sure Russia stays pissed at an oblivious and hostile US.

Wow, monumental idiocy on a scale never before seen!  This moron is making Jimmy Carter look just misguided.

[Libertas]

This is good.  Getting schooled by experts (most I am guessing like Rawley, are fellow Democrats) about Obama listening only to his batshyt inner circle of men-hating (real, Alpha men especially...which liek him or hate him Putin is and Obama isn't!) shrews and start making stupid calls that force Russia to escalate and kill God knows how many innocents because this a-hole is a weak-minded easily-manipulated butt-puppet!

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-04/obama-warned-defuse-tensions-russia-unintended-consequences-likely-be-catastrophic

And on the heels of being told by brass not to do stupid sh*t.

I bet with Rice and Jarrett and the rest of Team Stupid this has the opposite effect and they'll triple-down on the insane!

[Weisshaupt]

There is a civil war in the United States that starts in 2005. That conflict flares up and down for 10 years. In 2015, Russia launches a nuclear strike against the major cities in the United States (which is the "other side" of the civil war from my perspective), China and Europe. The United States counter attacks. The US cities are destroyed along with the AFE (American Federal Empire)...thus we (in the country) won. The European Union and China were also destroyed. Russia is now our largest trading partner and the Capitol of the US was moved to Omaha Nebraska.

One of the biggest reasons why food production is localized is because the environment is affected with disease and radiation. We are making huge strides in getting it cleaned up. Water is produced on a community level and we do eat meat that we raise ourselves.

After the war, early new communities gathered around the current Universities. That's where the libraries were. I went to school at Fort UF, which is now called the University of Florida. Not too much is different except the military is large part of people's life and we spend a great deal of time in the fields and farms at the "University" or Fort.

The Constitution was changed after the war. We have 5 presidents that are voted in and out on different term periods. The vice president is the president of the senate and they are voted separately - Jon Titor - History of his Alternate (but probably similar) worldline

Not that John Titor is really a world-line sifting time traveler I am just entertained by the idea.. but it contains a salient point..


 so, lets seriously consider this--  If you watch Putin's recent speeches, how is he trying to present himself to the world?

Some examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqD8lIdIMRo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQuceU3x2Ww
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co8s0egftsc

and is this merely saber rattling, or a true statement of policy?
http://russianforces.org/blog/2009/10/new_russian_doctrine_and_preve.shtml
http://thebulletin.org/why-russia-calls-limited-nuclear-strike-de-escalation


If Putin wants to continue projecting this image of himself,  and were to launch a nuke strike against the US- would it be a full strike or tactical? 
Is Obama likely to respond with a full strike in retaliation ( assuming he survives)  or would there be a stand down order?  ( I think  Putin would have to ensure the moron survived..) 
If the targets were say , low yield nukes on Washington DC and  New York City, what would be the response of the citizenry?  Would it mimic John Titor's in that we would recongize that the power centers of the  "other side"  of our culture war had been destroyed?



Here is a fun site to help you figure that out

http://iSideWith.com/map/dAW

You can see geographically  party affiliation, support for gun control, support for Obamacare... and percentages.. 

And here you can experiment with different nukes, altitudes and blast radii, in case anyone doubt that  this can be done tactically.

http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

[Libertas]

That first map was confusing at first...till I realized you want "no" higher than "yes".

"If the targets were say , low yield nukes on Washington DC and  New York City, what would be the response of the citizenry?"

Celebrate Pali-style?!

A well placed 1KT explosion would decapitate a lot...but I don't see much less than a 20KT being used so as to not miss an opportunity for most cities.  You start going 50, 100, 150...that just starts to get gratuitous...people might not take "we had to be sure" as a valid excuse if generating that much collateral damage and fallout was the result...

But for DC and NYC?  It would be hard to go lower than 2MT.

Impressive tool...makes me think about looking further out for a new BOL!   

[Weisshaupt]

Impressive tool...makes me think about looking further out for a new BOL!   

Yeah - maybe we shoudl sticky these in the TEOTWAWKI section.

What size nukes and what altitude would be up to what Putin was trying to accomplish. I like the Titor description that the Russian's attacked our mutual enemy -  the United States government -- so  these two maps let you see exactly what the damage might be.  The Russians are still believed to have over 2000 Tactical size nukes.

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/5-russian-nuclear-weapons-war-the-west-should-fear-12159


But to return to Titor's wargaming

How far from what size city is it the safest to be?
A 10 Kiloton nuclear weapon will vaporize metal for about ½ a mile and have a heat effect for about 3 miles. A 100 Megaton nuclear weapon will vaporize metal to 35 miles and have a heat effect to about 250 miles. I believe the largest nuclear weapon ever built and tested was about 60 megatons.

As I recall, the popular strategy toady is to strike targets with multiple numbers of smaller warheads. The 100 Kt to 1 Mt are the most popular. I believe there are about 150 - 200 major cities in the US and half as many military targets. Please correct me someone if I am grossly incorrect.

Yes, EMP took out a great number of electronic devices. That's one of the reasons why we don't have reliable technology laying around. However, in the opening hours of N Day, the Russians did not launch any high altitude detonations. They knew we would most likely clean up after them so they wanted everyone outside the cities to be able to communicate. Most of the warheads that hit the cities came in threes and exploded close to the ground. The heavy EMP damage was isolated to those areas.

this is collaborated by this site

http://www.nukefix.org/weapon.html

The size of weapons: The one megaton size weapon is no longer widely used. Most of the literature that focuses on one megaton weapons is dated and of limited use for assessing blast damage. It was principally in the late 1950 and 1960s when megaton weapons were in vogue in the U.S. and comprised the bulk of its strategic nuclear weapons. The trend has been to move away from weapons in the megaton range. This trend is not a consequence of nations becoming choir boys. It is because they can produce more effective destruction with weapons in the 100 Kt to 550 Kt range [greater destruction per unit of weight]. The overwhelming majority of nuclear weapons in all nuclear weapon nations are less than one megaton [China comes the closest to being an exception to this rule with roughly 73% of its weapons reportedly being 300 Kt or less, and the remaining 77 of its weapons perhaps being 3.3 megatons or greater].

Note the site also talks about using multiple lower yield weapons to create as much or more damage than a single higher yield weapon via firesotrms.
Tactical Nukes are actually pretty darn small.  I was using the Russian Topol 800Kt  warhead for my calcs.. and looking at the difference between surface and air bursts. If you do surface bursts the damage can be greatly limited. 
If Putin really wanted to attack just cities and limit damage  then he would use surface bursts. Of course, that kicks up more fallout too, so its hard to say. maybe try to split the difference and burst at 500 -1000 ft, instead  a half a mile or more..

[Weisshaupt]

Found these interesting risk maps - both US Nuke targets and likely fallout. "The American redoubt" doesn't look so great under this scenario does it? Knew I should have moved to western Idaho.







And the top 30 city targets by population.

[Libertas]

Yeah, sucks to be in a higher than I'd like fallout area...   

And Wyoming looks OK, for a while...then I remembered Yellowstone...that was on a Russian hit list at one time...drop a nuke on it to trigger the Supervolcano...cover the northern, central and eastern half of the nation in lava and ash...

Frankly...things go bad enough...won't be many "safe" areas I bet...will be some element of luck to it.

And how does the east coast get by looking not so bad?  Think all that crap hitting big cities just blows out to sea?

[Glock32]

The Appalachian Mountains, especially the southern part, seem to fare pretty well.  That's where I want to be anyway.  Used to live there and would still be there if I didn't make so much more money here. 

But I guess I should be flattered that Charlotte made the Top 30 nuke target list.  That's when you know you're somebody.


! No longer available

[Glock32]

Also, I think DC would be a good candidate for a neutron bomb.  Neutron bombs seem to always escape discussion.

[Weisshaupt]

The Appalachian Mountains, especially the southern part, seem to fare pretty well. 

Well, they might miss the fall out. There are other, I think larger issues related to demographics and population density. The warmer, wetter climate is more conducive to crop growth, but its also more conducive to non- sheltered vagrants, insects and disease. Winters further north kill all three, and create a knowledge barrier to entry - the same way  they created a barrier for  Northern Europe. You have to know how to hunt there,  when to plant,  and so on..

Also, I think DC would be a good candidate for a neutron bomb.  Neutron bombs seem to always escape discussion.

Neutron bomb  is pretty much the same as any other low yield tactical  nuke,  just more people dead from radiation in the initial blast. It doesn't really change the game a lot other than leaving more stuff standing.

[Glock32]

The Appalachian Mountains, especially the southern part, seem to fare pretty well. 

Well, they might miss the fall out. There are other, I think larger issues related to demographics and population density. The warmer, wetter climate is more conducive to crop growth, but its also more conducive to non- sheltered vagrants, insects and disease. Winters further north kill all three, and create a knowledge barrier to entry - the same way  they created a barrier for  Northern Europe. You have to know how to hunt there,  when to plant,  and so on..

Above 3,000 feet the winter climate is virtually identical to upper NY.  It's subzero every winter.  It's essentially a southern Canadian climate several hundred miles to the south.  It is not an area conducive to large scale crop growth and that's why it remains sparsely populated to this day.  Appalachian mountain men are the original "Because f**k you, that's why" population in America and that attitude is still prevalent there.

Also, I think DC would be a good candidate for a neutron bomb.  Neutron bombs seem to always escape discussion.

Neutron bomb  is pretty much the same as any other low yield tactical  nuke,  just more people dead from radiation in the initial blast. It doesn't really change the game a lot other than leaving more stuff standing.

They produce a lot more high intensity radiation but with fairly short retention period.  It's for eliminating personnel without excessive destruction of infrastructure.  Or they could use biological or chemical weapons.  Somebody needs to spray a can of Raid on that whole place and I don't really care what they use.  That place is deserving of divine judgment.

[Libertas]

Yeah...not seeing a lot folks weeping over the loss of establishment goons...no matter the implement.

[Libertas]

Statist Buttpuppet to disclose his war orders against Russia & Syria on Friday...which means he is still trying to comprehend what the Masters told him...he might be portrayed as "clean and articulate" but he's as dumb as a sack of crap...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-13/obama-decide-friday-military-action-syria

...and then it's off to the golf course and deviant sex with Reggie afterwards...