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Mormons and the LDS Church

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Weisshaupt:

--- Quote from: Libertas on October 02, 2017, 05:44:13 PM ---
That being said, I do have to look at them as cultish what with that bizzare lost tribe of Israel and magical plates in the forest et al...none of which has ever been proven...but a benign cult as far as cults go.


--- End quote ---

Well, as I said,  "the Book of Mormon is a true history"  angle is hard for me to swallow. But if Joseph Smith's goal  was to try and form a cult around himself to become rich and sleep with his friends wives,  he ended up doing a pretty lousy job of it. You couldn't come up with a better idea than a family of  jews ( I think its over-stating it that they were a tribe)   came to America and built and destroyed multiple civilizations - large enough to have cities - without leaving a trace?    Also the Book of Mormon reads very much like the old testament - which for me means, inaccessible and rather dull.. and its hard for me to believe a sham artist would spend the time and energy to write it all, much less fail to come up with more a more visible and believable story than gold plates found in a hill that few were allowed to see and which had to be returned to an angel.. SO I suspect he was sincere in what he said and believed, and that sincerity worked to convince others, and he was willing to bear more than a small amount of persecution to continue on, up to and including his own murder and the murder of firends and followers. .  Maybe he was just sick and heard voices in his head. Maybe he was a prophet and God wiped all evidence of these things from the face of the earth to test our faith. Maybe they didn't even happen here and they happened in an alternate Titor Verse. . I tend to try and keep an open mind on things that can't be proven. Science assumes God has better things to do than manipulate lab results and archeological digs.  If he doesn't and he is, then all bets are off.

The looks of adoration and  admiration some showed for the current prophet at that celebration did spook me a bit though.  they would wave just hoping he would wave back, and they would get so excited if he did acknowledge them. Its was worshipful...and   That was really cultish to me.. but not everyone there was doing that. But enough were I was more than a bit uncomfortable. Its just a man guys. He may even hold the true priestly authority and get God's instruction for the church. I am sure he lives well and comfortably, maybe even lavishly at the expense of the church - but that wouldn't be something new.. ( anyone been to the Vatican? SHeesh.) 

Hence I still have me reservations. If it helps my wife and she is happy, I don't see a lot of harm in it and a lot of good that can come of it.. But I am not sure I can put in the time and energy to fake it,  and I am not to the point where I wouldn't be, and probably never will be there.  I  have said before, I think GOd wants me to come by a different road. Maybe my  road joins with Christ's road at some point, but I never feel like that road is an option  from where I am standing at any given moment. INTJs don't do much of anything on faith I guess.

 

Libertas:

--- Quote from: Weisshaupt on October 02, 2017, 06:54:58 PM ---
--- Quote from: Libertas on October 02, 2017, 05:44:13 PM ---
That being said, I do have to look at them as cultish what with that bizzare lost tribe of Israel and magical plates in the forest et al...none of which has ever been proven...but a benign cult as far as cults go.


--- End quote ---

Well, as I said,  "the Book of Mormon is a true history"  angle is hard for me to swallow. But if Joseph Smith's goal  was to try and form a cult around himself to become rich and sleep with his friends wives,  he ended up doing a pretty lousy job of it. You couldn't come up with a better idea than a family of  jews ( I think its over-stating it that they were a tribe)   came to America and built and destroyed multiple civilizations - large enough to have cities - without leaving a trace?    Also the Book of Mormon reads very much like the old testament - which for me means, inaccessible and rather dull.. and its hard for me to believe a sham artist would spend the time and energy to write it all, much less fail to come up with more a more visible and believable story than gold plates found in a hill that few were allowed to see and which had to be returned to an angel.. SO I suspect he was sincere in what he said and believed, and that sincerity worked to convince others, and he was willing to bear more than a small amount of persecution to continue on, up to and including his own murder and the murder of firends and followers. .  Maybe he was just sick and heard voices in his head. Maybe he was a prophet and God wiped all evidence of these things from the face of the earth to test our faith. Maybe they didn't even happen here and they happened in an alternate Titor Verse. . I tend to try and keep an open mind on things that can't be proven. Science assumes God has better things to do than manipulate lab results and archeological digs.  If he doesn't and he is, then all bets are off.

The looks of adoration and  admiration some showed for the current prophet at that celebration did spook me a bit though.  they would wave just hoping he would wave back, and they would get so excited if he did acknowledge them. Its was worshipful...and   That was really cultish to me.. but not everyone there was doing that. But enough were I was more than a bit uncomfortable. Its just a man guys. He may even hold the true priestly authority and get God's instruction for the church. I am sure he lives well and comfortably, maybe even lavishly at the expense of the church - but that wouldn't be something new.. ( anyone been to the Vatican? SHeesh.) 

Hence I still have me reservations. If it helps my wife and she is happy, I don't see a lot of harm in it and a lot of good that can come of it.. But I am not sure I can put in the time and energy to fake it,  and I am not to the point where I wouldn't be, and probably never will be there.  I  have said before, I think GOd wants me to come by a different road. Maybe my  road joins with Christ's road at some point, but I never feel like that road is an option  from where I am standing at any given moment. INTJs don't do much of anything on faith I guess.
--- End quote ---

I am reminded of my first conscious exposure to deep Catholicism...in a room with priests and nuns (the reason benign and unimportant)...and to commence a meeting they launch into a prayer, being a half-way decent non-Apostate Protestant I was expecting a short homage to Our Lord and Savior...lo and behold, nothing of the sort, a long litany (I mean long and a litany) of Saints I could barely recall and while a lot of time has passed since I think Jesus might have snuck in there at the end but I cannot remember for sure...all I remember is thinking "What is all this?  What happened to Jesus?  Isn't He the Light and The Way?" so yeah, I was like...I guess centuries of ritual created a sh*tload of unneeded residue!  Why can't people keep it simple?  Jesus kept it simple, come to Him, He said!  Why are people such assholes?!  Anyway, been asking that latter question my whole life...apparently assholes are liked.  The same dynamic of not being able to let go of old ways drove me nuts with my brother years ago when he was struggling financially...but was still tithing 10% to the church as the Old Testament says.  I looked at him and asked "Are you Jewish?"  His reply, "Uhh, no."  Me: "Then why are you following the Old Testament and not the New?"...Spit, sputter, blah, blah...  should have known better than teasing an INTJ with such an obvious logic error.  He is much better at keeping stuff to himself now.

As for an INTJ's and faith is concerned, there is faith backed by intelligence and a message that appeals to our better nature, and there is faith based upon lies and cults of personality and with messages appealing to some darker elements of our nature...most people know the difference.  For myself the whole God and science reconciliation thing will reveal itself in due time and it will be like "Yeah, cool", and it is going to be better than the Atheist viewpoint that well, something happened, this ooze met that ooze and "poof!" life and the universe just like happened, man...God had nothing to do with it".  Uhh huh, yeah...well, a wise wager would be on the side of God than not, right?  I mean if there isn't a God, no worse off, if there is and you bet against Him, well, now you're screwed!

Weisshaupt:

--- Quote from: Libertas on October 03, 2017, 06:54:10 AM ---I am reminded of my first conscious exposure to deep Catholicism...in a room with priests and nuns (the reason benign and unimportant)...and to commence a meeting they launch into a prayer, being a half-way decent non-Apostate Protestant I was expecting a short homage to Our Lord and Savior...lo and behold, nothing of the sort, a long litany (I mean long and a litany) of Saints I could barely recall and while a lot of time has passed since I think Jesus might have snuck in there at the end but I cannot remember for sure...all I remember is thinking "What is all this?  What happened to Jesus?  Isn't He the Light and The Way?" so yeah, I was like...I guess centuries of ritual created a sh*tload of unneeded residue!  Why can't people keep it simple?  Jesus kept it simple, come to Him, He said!  Why are people such assholes?!

--- End quote ---

Power. Well, If I say God said it, then I can get them to do what I want. If I tell them to worship saints then I can get them to worship me as a saint.. And don't question me, I am a man of God- above you- better than you - have faith  in god and in ME.


--- Quote ---"In extracting the pure principles which he taught, we should have to strip off the artificial vestments in which they have been muffled by priests, who have travestied them into various forms, as instruments of riches and power to themselves. We must dismiss the Platonists and Plotinists, the Stagyrites and Gamalielites, the Eclectics, the Gnostics and Scholastics, their essences and emanations, their logos and demiurges, aeons and daemons, male and female, with a long train of … or, shall I say at once, of nonsense. We must reduce our volume to the simple evangelists, select, even from them, the very words only of Jesus, paring off the amphibologisms into which they have been led, by forgetting often, or not understanding, what had fallen from him, by giving their own misconceptions as his dicta, and expressing unintelligibly for others what they had not understood themselves. There will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man. I have performed this operation for my own use, by cutting verse by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter which is evidently his, and which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill. The result is an octavo of forty-six pages, of pure and unsophisticated doctrines.[6] - Thomas Jefferson"
--- End quote ---

 
Of course I have gotten into arguments with good people who tell me God preserved his word perfectly and that there is no such corruption in the Bible, and my belief that there is comes from Satan and my lack of faith.

As for keeping it simple, it is one of the things I do like about the Mormon Faith. I think very much  they try to run the Church as the original Apostles did theirs. Except for the Temples, which you need a recommend as a member in good standing to enter,  Mormon meeting houses are very plain and not ornate. They are nice, clean, and well-kept but done frugally. . The Services and Sacrament are performed entirely  by the congregation. The Ward leadership's job consists mostly of picking people to speak and moving people from position to position.  Because callings change - including the ward leadership, no one stays in one position of power long enough to develop or solidify a power base from which they can influence or push for more power - at least not at the local level. Prayers tend to be short , begin with thanks for blessings ( friends, opportunity)  and then a few hopes ( keep us safe and give us a good time) and then end.  Because callings change, no one stays in one position of power long enough to develop or solidify a power base from which they can influence or push for power. .  They DO NOT pass a plate- as they don't believe tithing should be in the public eye. . You walk directly up to one of two people responsible for doing offerings (this too is a calling) ( who check each other), and hand it to them in an envelope. They do not ask for tax forms ( I have been in churches that do) so they don't actually know what 10% is or should be. I am told they don't scold if they think you are holding back ( but I am sure that would affect any requests for welfare should you need them. )  SO socially the system isn't perfect, but its far better at checking corruption than most I have seen.

I wouldn't say there was no man-made aggrandizement going on, and the adoration and  worship of the Prophet I saw  was real , no matter if he encourages  it or not,    but for a church that openly proclaims they have a prophet who serves as the mouthpiece of God on Earth (as the pope is supposed to )  i have seen surprisingly little evidence of it in the doctrines and covenants so far, and when its there its pretty darn mild.  One account I read suggested that the prohibition on tea, coffee and tobacco was largely a result of Joseph Smith's wife having to clean up the mess after meetings, so God just outlawed that.  (And its now taught as a general warning against addiction of any kind/keeping the body as a temple in honor of God)  And while opening up doctrine for change by church leaders is dangerous and a temptation to add in those Man Made items, it also allows the church to adapt and discard crap this isn't working ( like polygamy)   if used judiciously. I have run across surprisingly few things that really bother me, and their doctrine actually resolves a lot of the conflicts I have with other Christian faiths. (Original sin, The concept of Hell, Baptism must be performed on people of age to understand..)  They concentrate far more on the Garden of Gethsemane as the focal moment of Christ's life and not his suffering and resurrection on the cross, because that is where Christ himself really submitted to God's will- for us. They focus more on the decision and not on the act of carrying it out .. which I find ..interesting.


--- Quote ---  For myself the whole God and science reconciliation thing will reveal itself in due time and it will be like "Yeah, cool", and it is going to be better than the Atheist viewpoint that well, something happened, this ooze met that ooze and "poof!" life and the universe just like happened, man...God had nothing to do with it".  Uhh huh, yeah...well, a wise wager would be on the side of God than not, right?  I mean if there isn't a God, no worse off, if there is and you bet against Him, well, now you're screwed!

--- End quote ---

I have had some spiritual experiences that have pretty much convinced me of the existence of -- something.  As an INTJ I am a planner, and its hard to not notice divine plans when they are laid out before you and you have walked along them far enough ..  SO I have faith that there is a plan, and some entity in charge of making it work.  There is simple too much evidence of design in the world for me to ignore..law of large numbers or no.

The "Learning or fun" reason for existence is consistent with what I have seen, and the "learning" has been consistent with what Jesus has taught in the Bible ( As I kid when I was in Sunday school, I found most of what they were teaching me obvious- OF course we need  to behave that way- How else would we ever be able to get along? But being good at it  is a lot easier when you are 5. )  So since I believe that there is a plan, and that God manipulates events such that the plan is carried out, I have no  conflict at all with Science. Science is automatically and instantly  invalidated in a situation with Miracles.  I think that the Universe is a clockwork - largely running on automatic,  for the purpose of training souls ( for whatever purpose they may be needed later) - but that doesn't preclude the clock-maker from touching, maintaining or altering the clockwork when it suits him.  ( I am suddenly reminded of  Snowpiercer (horrible premise - great movie) ) Perhaps people are also parts of the clock, or even God himself? Is Clockwork that requires God's periodic intervention to operate imperfect? Or was it designed that way to fulfill a need? )

 

John Florida:
  If you are comfortable in the church then that's what you need to do. If any out there aren't comfortable with the church you're in why go? Find what you're looking for.

IronDioPriest:
I'm not comfortable with LDS theology for myself, but I'm also not someone who think God gives a crap about theology. I believe the Bible is God's word, but I also believe He placed the compilation of it in the hands of mankind. It is a book, not God Himself. And it is not all-inclusive, because it cannot be. It includes what God needs us to understand about Him, and our relationship with Him. But it doesn't cover every aspect of an omnipotent God because it cannot.

Just by way of example, did Jesus and the Disciples laugh together when one of them ripped a fart? We cannot know because the Bible does not say. There are countless things the Bible does not say.

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