Author Topic: Someone please point me to a definitive "Natural Born Citizen" argument  (Read 665 times)

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Online IronDioPriest

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On the wretched cesspool known as facebook, I'm trying to make the case that Nikki Haley is not eligible to be president because both of her parents were non-citizens at the time she was born in the US, and did not become naturalized until after she was born. To me, this is the definition of a "naturalized" citizen, not a natural born citizen.

If seen this case made here countless times that naturalized and natural born are not identical, and that legal precedent shows they are not identical, and I'm looking for one or two cases or informed opinions I can cite that back up the position.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Pablo de Fleurs

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Re: Someone please point me to a definitive "Natural Born Citizen" argument
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2017, 06:36:27 PM »
Quick lookup via Bing - this should get you started . . . looks to me that her parent's non-citizen status clearly negates her eligibility to become POTUS.

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U.S. citizen at birth

All the sources routinely used to interpret the Constitution confirm that the phrase "natural born Citizen" has a specific meaning: namely, someone who was a U.S. citizen at birth with no need to go through a naturalization proceeding at some later time.

Congress has also ruled that citizenship is subject to certain residency requirements on the parents. Someone born to a U.S. citizen generally becomes a U.S. citizen without regard to whether the birth takes place in Canada, the Canal Zone, or the continental United States.
Reference: harvardlawreview.org/2015/03/on-the-meaning-of-natural-born-citizen/

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Is Ted Cruz a 'natural born citizen'?
Ted Cruz was born in Canada. His mother was a U.S. citizen. His father, a Cuban, was not. Under U.S. law, the fact that Cruz was born to a U.S. citizen mother makes him a citizen from birth. In other words, he is a “natural born citizen” (as opposed to a naturalized citizen) and is constitutionally eligible.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/01/07/yes-ted-cruz-is-a-natural-born-citizen/?utm_term=.dee8e8dfdc54

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Can a naturalized American citizen become president?
"No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

Article 2, Section 1, Clause 5 of the US Constitution clearly states that: "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.".

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What does natural born citizen mean?
Natural born citizen. A phrase denoting one of the requirements for becoming President or Vice-President of the United States. Anyone born after the adoption of the U.S. Constitution in 1787 must be a "natural born Citizen" of the United States to constitutionally fill the office of President or Vice-President. See U.S. Const. art.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/natural_born_citizen

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Should Naturalized Citizens Be President?

No. America has always been open to foreign-born immigrants becoming full and equal citizens—with one exception: Only a "natural-born Citizen" can become President.

This requirement strikes a reasonable balance between our society's openness and the ongoing requirements of national security.

One of the legal conditions for becoming an American citizen is to be "attached to the principles of the Constitution of the United States." New citizens also must take an oath to renounce "all allegiance and fidelity" to other nations and "bear true faith and allegiance" to the United States. But in the case of the presidency we need even more assurance of that allegiance than an oath.

The presidency is unique: One person makes crucial decisions, many having to do with foreign policy and national security. With a single executive, there are no checks to override the possibility of foreign intrigue or influence, or mitigate any lingering favoritism for one's native homeland.

Unlike any other position or office, the attachment of the President must be absolute. Attachment comes most often from being born in—and educated and formed by—this country, unalloyed by other allegiances.

In general, constitutional amendments should be pursued only after careful consideration, when it is necessary to address a great national issue and when there is broad-based support among the American people. That is not the case here.

Matthew Spalding
Director, B. Kenneth Simon Center for American Studies
The Heritage Foundation


https://www.scholastic.com/teachers/articles/teaching-content/should-naturalized-citizens-be-president/

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Debate: Foreign-born presidents in the US
Should the US constitution be amended to allow foreign-born presidents?

http://debatepedia.idebate.org/en/index.php/Debate:_Foreign-born_presidents_in_the_US

« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 06:53:18 PM by Pablo de Fleurs »
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Online Pandora

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Re: Someone please point me to a definitive "Natural Born Citizen" argument
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2018, 12:26:51 PM »
IDP, I understand your dilemma.

There is no "definitive" on this issue because ....

1) The definition of "Natural Born Citizen" is not written in the Constitution.

2) There's been no USSC decision on the definition or the issue itself.

All of the rest are merely opinions, with due respect to Pablo, and there are as many that disagree with those opinions he cited as those that agree.

Now, in my opinion, we're going to need a concrete definition soon because of the birth-tourism industry and the "citizenship" of the downloads made by illegal aliens in this country, and by "soon", I mean when we get another strict Supreme on the Court.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: Someone please point me to a definitive "Natural Born Citizen" argument
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2018, 02:06:50 PM »
This is the chaos that decades of Progressive PC/Diversity/Multi-Culti BS helped create!

The same diseased dysfunction that we have allowed creep from fringe society into politics and the courts and give us the situation we find ourselves in now where words and their original meaning are subject to reinterpretation simply because assholes don't like what they meant at the time!

Employing the KISS Principle...nobody unless they are a complete back-birth can fail understand what the term "born" and "citizen" mean..."live birth" appears on most certifications and a citizen is merely a dweller in a nation, not necessarily legal in character.

So it all comes down to the meaning of "natural".

Noah Webster is our national treasure, the compiler of the English language in America and he leveraged heavily off of our British genesis, understandably as we were a part of the empire until it became tyrannical and hostile.  So there is a lot of English words and their meanings inherited from Britannic English via Samuel Johnson, and much of it and what Noah put in his dictionary are one in the same.

To wit - "Natural" (noun) -

2. A native; an original inhabitant.

Even the adjective is in harmony with that concept -

1.  ...natural is opposed to artificial or acquired.

http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/natural

Clearly, one cannot be an original inhabitant without being born within these United States or it's territories (which would include military bases and consulates since they are legally defined as US property).  The process of being naturalized is not equal to being natural, naturalization is a artificial/acquired process by which one becomes a lawful citizen in the nation, it does not mean they are a natural born citizen who can be President.  IMHO it does not get any simpler than that.  Why muck it up?  The only reason to do so is for selfish un-Constitutional (unnatural if you will) purposes.

So, let arguments commence...what about Cruz, what about McCain...?

Well, unless his mother was a natural born citizen and had to give birth outside the US because she was an official consular official...hard to make any case for his eligibility regardless of the status of the father.  But she was natural born (DE) but she was there with her hubby in the oil business, no official US presence there so Cruz is a natural born citizen of Canada and had dual citizenship in the US, if you recall he had to renounce his Canadian status in 2014 in preparation for a POTUS run.  Only an IL case reaffirmed his eligibility to run, if he had gotten the nomination instead of Trump it is hard to know where this would have gone, the corrupt bargain of McCain allowing himself to be used to give political cover to Obama mucked the landscape up royally...and while it is hard to see the Dem's mounting much in the way of a salvo against Cruz had he advanced, can never say never, but deep down I think they like the watered down definition that is now sadly (stare decisis) part of case law mortar.

McCain was born on a US Naval Base in the Panama Canal Zone too US natural born citizens (IA & OK) so he is (was) eligible IMO.

Without a major case for SCOTUS to rule on (God Help Us!) the situation does not look like it will revert to sound Constitutional ground.

Hope that helps!
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Online IronDioPriest

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Re: Someone please point me to a definitive "Natural Born Citizen" argument
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2018, 03:09:19 PM »
These people are saying that regardless of the fact that Haley's parents were both foreign nationals, and did not become naturalized US citizens until after she was born, she's still eligible. They cite the fact that she was born on US soil and thus granted citizenship at birth as evidence that she is in fact "natural born".

I cited in response, that according to their position, an anchor baby born on US soil to two illegal aliens is also "natural born" and entitled to pursue the presidency. Rather than acknowledge the inherent opposition to the Founders' intent in that scenario, they doubled-down and said yes, in fact, an anchor baby can become president.

Iy-yi-yi. And these are "conservatives".
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Libertas

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Re: Someone please point me to a definitive "Natural Born Citizen" argument
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2018, 03:28:07 PM »
These people are saying that regardless of the fact that Haley's parents were both foreign nationals, and did not become naturalized US citizens until after she was born, she's still eligible. They cite the fact that she was born on US soil and thus granted citizenship at birth as evidence that she is in fact "natural born".

I cited in response, that according to their position, an anchor baby born on US soil to two illegal aliens is also "natural born" and entitled to pursue the presidency. Rather than acknowledge the inherent opposition to the Founders' intent in that scenario, they doubled-down and said yes, in fact, an anchor baby can become president.

Iy-yi-yi. And these are "conservatives".



Criminal acts violate the citizen part of the natural born in the equation.  Hit 'em with that...and then hit them with a hammer if their lips still try to utter bullsh*t.

Good luck!
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Offline Pablo de Fleurs

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Re: Someone please point me to a definitive "Natural Born Citizen" argument
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2018, 03:46:19 PM »
These people are saying that regardless of the fact that Haley's parents were both foreign nationals, and did not become naturalized US citizens until after she was born, she's still eligible. They cite the fact that she was born on US soil and thus granted citizenship at birth as evidence that she is in fact "natural born".

I cited in response, that according to their position, an anchor baby born on US soil to two illegal aliens is also "natural born" and entitled to pursue the presidency. Rather than acknowledge the inherent opposition to the Founders' intent in that scenario, they doubled-down and said yes, in fact, an anchor baby can become president.

Iy-yi-yi. And these are "conservatives".

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The Constitution directly addresses the minimum qualifications necessary to serve as President. In addition to requiring thirty-five years of age and fourteen years of residency, the Constitution limits the presidency to “a natural born Citizen.” All the sources routinely used to interpret the Constitution confirm that the phrase “natural born Citizen” has a specific meaning: namely, someone who was a U.S. citizen at birth with no need to go through a naturalization proceeding at some later time. And Congress has made equally clear from the time of the framing of the Constitution to the current day that, subject to certain residency requirements on the parents, someone born to a U.S. citizen parent generally becomes a U.S. citizen without regard to whether the birth takes place in Canada, the Canal Zone, or the continental United States.

While some constitutional issues are truly difficult, with framing-era sources either nonexistent or contradictory, here, the relevant materials clearly indicate that a “natural born Citizen” means a citizen from birth with no need to go through naturalization proceedings. The Supreme Court has long recognized that two particularly useful sources in understanding constitutional terms are British common law and enactments of the First Congress.

Both confirm that the original meaning of the phrase “natural born Citizen” includes persons born abroad who are citizens from birth based on the citizenship of a parent.

https://harvardlawreview.org/2015/03/on-the-meaning-of-natural-born-citizen/

  • Haley is not qualified - neither of her parents were United States citizens.
  • Anchor baby not qualified- neither of its parents were United States citizens.

The anchor baby might be a "citizen" for residency purposes, but not able to become president.

One of the talk radio subs sort of endorsed Nikki Haley last week, based upon her U.N. chops - but that alone does not qualify one to be POTUS.

But all this is one of the reasons I gave up Facebook. I have an anonymous Diqus account purely for skewering idiots when in rage-monster mode - but the endless drone of social media ends up polluting the mind of all users - AND wastes a lot of time.
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Re: Someone please point me to a definitive "Natural Born Citizen" argument
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2018, 03:57:27 PM »
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Rather than acknowledge the inherent opposition to the Founders' intent in that scenario, they doubled-down and said yes, in fact, an anchor baby can become president.

Ask 'em about a birth-tourism baby born here to Chinese parents and then raised in China.  My guess is they'll triple-down on that.

Those so-called "Conservatives" do not understand the principle behind not having a dual-national eligible for the Presidency, not having anyone with divided loyalties eligible, as in the download with illegal alien parents -- as in the pos's marching around with Mexican flags chanting "si si pudenda" (or whatever the hell they're chanting).

Such "Conservatives" conserve nothing worth having, particularly not any principles I'd recognize as such, and refuse to wrap their heads around "the Constitution is not a suicide pact".
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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Offline Pablo de Fleurs

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Re: Someone please point me to a definitive "Natural Born Citizen" argument
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2018, 04:16:40 PM »

Such "Conservatives" conserve nothing worth having, particularly not any principles I'd recognize as such, and refuse to wrap their heads around "the Constitution is not a suicide pact".

Hence the hashtag #SecondAmendmentSolutions, which I'm pretty sure I came across in the writings of Jefferson but I, uhm...don't have that link . . .
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Offline Libertas

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Re: Someone please point me to a definitive "Natural Born Citizen" argument
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2018, 07:57:58 AM »
Quote
Rather than acknowledge the inherent opposition to the Founders' intent in that scenario, they doubled-down and said yes, in fact, an anchor baby can become president.

Ask 'em about a birth-tourism baby born here to Chinese parents and then raised in China.  My guess is they'll triple-down on that.

Those so-called "Conservatives" do not understand the principle behind not having a dual-national eligible for the Presidency, not having anyone with divided loyalties eligible, as in the download with illegal alien parents -- as in the pos's marching around with Mexican flags chanting "si si pudenda" (or whatever the hell they're chanting).

Such "Conservatives" conserve nothing worth having, particularly not any principles I'd recognize as such, and refuse to wrap their heads around "the Constitution is not a suicide pact".

I thought it was "Por La Raza todo, Fuera de La Raza nada" (for the race everything, outside the race nothing)...they also like to remind people they are breeding more insurgents for "la Reconquista" ( the Reconquest).  There is also their sister Allinskyite cell - Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán (Chicano Student Movement of Aztlan [MEChA]).

“Chicano is our identity; it defines who we are as people. It rejects the notion that we…should assimilate into the Anglo-American melting pot…Aztlan was the legendary homeland of the Aztecas … It became synonymous with the vast territories of the Southwest, brutally stolen from a Mexican people marginalized and betrayed by the hostile custodians of the Manifest Destiny.” (Statement on University of Oregon MEChA Website, Jan. 3, 2006)

La Raza is racist, they are the Hispanic KKK...their in the race or out of it litmus test makes that crystal clear, the MEChA is the SS of the Reconquista movement.

They are the Al Qaeda and DAESH of radical Hispanic Zenophobes in out midst, they need to be crushed, utterly.

Destruir las células terroristas de la raza y MEChA!

(Destroy the terrorist cells of la raza and MEChA!)

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Offline Libertas

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Re: Someone please point me to a definitive "Natural Born Citizen" argument
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2018, 07:59:03 AM »

Such "Conservatives" conserve nothing worth having, particularly not any principles I'd recognize as such, and refuse to wrap their heads around "the Constitution is not a suicide pact".

Hence the hashtag #SecondAmendmentSolutions, which I'm pretty sure I came across in the writings of Jefferson but I, uhm...don't have that link . . .

The watering of the Tree of Liberty is going to have some chili's in it...
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Online richb

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Re: Someone please point me to a definitive "Natural Born Citizen" argument
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2018, 03:46:42 PM »
The ship sailed long ago on this one folks.   If Barry can be president,  just about anybody can be now...............

We won't get relief from the SC either.   That train has left the station too. 

Offline Libertas

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Re: Someone please point me to a definitive "Natural Born Citizen" argument
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2018, 07:48:56 AM »
Which is why we're gonna need a new ship...the old one is on fire and taking on water...it's when will it go down, not if...
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