Author Topic: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment  (Read 349 times)

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Offline Weisshaupt

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Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« on: November 25, 2017, 07:34:33 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih4RYO1te8s

I know I have butted heads with people here over this before. I will probably continue to do so.  I think Multiculturalism based on a binding Civic ethic can work, but obviously would required guards and checks that our founders didn't put in place, and I don't see a road back to that from where we are standing. Its going to go tribal, and in the end it will be to everyone's loss, as I think that different ways of approaching life and problems was key to driving America to the point where it was a super power. But then again, most of that immigration was Culturally already similar to us in terms of work ethic and values.  As Adams said, the U.S. Constitution is fit only for a moral (which here I think implies Christian in many ways)  people. and if the morals  are corrupted the whole shebang is lost. The Civic ethic we embraced has been turned  and used against us, by people who have no intention of ever reciprocating based on those values.

And I think more and more people are coming to that conclusion.  White Identity politics, which will be portrayed as the next coming of the KKK or Hitler,  is here to stay - and will probably form the real battle lines  - that fiction story we read about the black guy wanting to fight with the patriots and being told instead  to stay in his home - seems entirely accurate. How nastily will the lines be drawn? Who will be in tribe and who won't? Its hard to say.  Back east they are already so dang racist, with Italians, Greeks , Jews, Koreans, and what not openly refusing to associate with THOSE kinds of people. Out West the pioneer etic is still strong despite the California pollution, and the Californians tend to be more fadist and elitist than racist.

Thoughts?


 

Offline Pablo de Fleurs

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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2017, 10:25:28 PM »
Quote
We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song.
2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but of power & of love and of calm, a well-balanced mind, discipline and self-control.

Offline Libertas

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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2017, 11:33:58 AM »
Founding Principles work, they only break down when they are allowed to break down.  We're beyond that now, they are actively being encouraged to be broken down into rubble by our so-called representatives and cheered on by their tribal leaders in media, entertainment, academia and business.  Assimilation has been turned on its head, those of us still clinging to Founding Principles are the ones being told to assimilate to the tribalism of Globalist Progressive dogma.  OMBDB!  And I honestly don't give a fat rats ass about race...I have one guide star, just one...you are for Founding Principles and the supporting Judeo-Christian tradition, ethics and morals and the unwavering belief that Our Rights are endowed to us by Our Creator, not just codified on animal skins!  That's it.  So I don't care what color you are and apart from Mohammadism and made up crap like Scientology and psychotic cults I don't give a damn about other religions...either you are for Founding Principles or you are not, and if not you are not then you are my mortal enemy for all time and on any existential plane!
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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2017, 06:06:11 PM »
Founding Principles work, they only break down when they are allowed to break down.  We're beyond that now, they are actively being encouraged to be broken down into rubble by our so-called representatives and cheered on by their tribal leaders in media, entertainment, academia and business.  Assimilation has been turned on its head, those of us still clinging to Founding Principles are the ones being told to assimilate to the tribalism of Globalist Progressive dogma.  OMBDB!  And I honestly don't give a fat rats ass about race...I have one guide star, just one...you are for Founding Principles and the supporting Judeo-Christian tradition, ethics and morals and the unwavering belief that Our Rights are endowed to us by Our Creator, not just codified on animal skins!  That's it.  So I don't care what color you are and apart from Mohammadism and made up crap like Scientology and psychotic cults I don't give a damn about other religions...either you are for Founding Principles or you are not, and if not you are not then you are my mortal enemy for all time and on any existential plane!

Unfortunately ( or perhaps fortunately) more and more people who do believe in those founding principles and finding themselves being made to care about race and color. I suspect that if we get though this it will be by segmenting along tribal and not ideological lines. We may, after ridding ourselves of the trash, be able to return to those ideological roots, but I think whatever emerges at first will necessarily be Christian based -  probably as a national religion -  and if other races are tolerated, the will be made to assimilate - "act white"  and do it  damn quick.

Offline Pablo de Fleurs

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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2017, 06:30:02 PM »
...and more people who do believe in those founding principles and finding themselves being made to care about race and color.

Having endured a sermon on ‘racial tension’ last Sunday (which, overall, wasn’t too bad – but one lady brought up the Trayvon Martin incident from a fear perspective) – today’s “sermon” was a congregational opportunity to share praise & thanks individually in front of the church with a mike…

…now was my chance to take a small swat back.

I began by being thankful for my wife & 2 adult children (who were sitting 3 rows away) - & then stated that, when I pray, it’s for wisdom & patience. That – being in the leadership development field – patience is a necessity since I deal with people. People who make goals then proceed to make excuses as to why they can’t achieve those goals…that they set.

I then turned people into culture: stating that our culture is akin to an adolescent teenager, demanding things be given them rather than achieve those things on their own – and how I need even more patience to respond to a culture run totally amok; feigning offense at every turn & wearing a “Victim” lens rather than accepting personal responsibility.

I closed expressing thanks for God’s graciousness – enabling me to discern truth in a culture bent on muddying the definition of that word.

I received a polite applause as I took my seat (being thankful for the opportunity to vent in a small, yet appropriate way).
2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but of power & of love and of calm, a well-balanced mind, discipline and self-control.

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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2017, 06:40:52 PM »
You can have all the different inputs you want, if there's a core glue that holds it together.  The left now is openly going after the Bill of Rights.  They're using tribalism to do so.  There is where the whole thing breaks down.

When Chinese protest colleges to get the Dalai Lama disinvited from speaking, they're not American.  Go the bleep back.
When Mexicans salute the Mexican flag and not the American flag, they're not American.  Go the bleep back.
When anyone takes a knee for the national anthem, they're not American.  Ship them the bleep back to the s**thole they originated from.
When Muhammad does anything in support of Sharia Law, ship him the bleep back to the s**thole he originated from.

Save America for those who value our shared ideals that have been in place for 241 years.

Offline Pablo de Fleurs

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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2017, 06:55:43 PM »
You can have all the different inputs you want, if there's a core glue that holds it together.  The left now is openly going after the Bill of Rights.  They're using tribalism to do so.  There is where the whole thing breaks down.

Most churches I know consider that "glue" to be Jesus Christ - which is ultimately true. But there's a layer beneath that (Jesus is on top, obviously) that MUST recognize core, founding, Constitutionally defined freedoms - which the founders acknowledged were from God anyway...so there's the connector.

The problem with many churches is a reticence to acknowledge that connection (a nation conceived & founded on the Judeo/Christian ethic) because they fear their congregation (verbal/emotional backlash, lower tithing, leaving, etc). Then they begin, as I've stated before, to view scripture through a cultural lens, rather than culture through a scriptural lens.

...and then the congregational pandering begins.
2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but of power & of love and of calm, a well-balanced mind, discipline and self-control.

Offline Libertas

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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2017, 07:24:48 AM »
Founding Principles work, they only break down when they are allowed to break down.  We're beyond that now, they are actively being encouraged to be broken down into rubble by our so-called representatives and cheered on by their tribal leaders in media, entertainment, academia and business.  Assimilation has been turned on its head, those of us still clinging to Founding Principles are the ones being told to assimilate to the tribalism of Globalist Progressive dogma.  OMBDB!  And I honestly don't give a fat rats ass about race...I have one guide star, just one...you are for Founding Principles and the supporting Judeo-Christian tradition, ethics and morals and the unwavering belief that Our Rights are endowed to us by Our Creator, not just codified on animal skins!  That's it.  So I don't care what color you are and apart from Mohammadism and made up crap like Scientology and psychotic cults I don't give a damn about other religions...either you are for Founding Principles or you are not, and if not you are not then you are my mortal enemy for all time and on any existential plane!

Unfortunately ( or perhaps fortunately) more and more people who do believe in those founding principles and finding themselves being made to care about race and color. I suspect that if we get though this it will be by segmenting along tribal and not ideological lines. We may, after ridding ourselves of the trash, be able to return to those ideological roots, but I think whatever emerges at first will necessarily be Christian based -  probably as a national religion -  and if other races are tolerated, the will be made to assimilate - "act white"  and do it  damn quick.

I hate that term "act white", it's what the militantly racist in the black community lob at blacks who leave the plantation the progs created...and is itself a racist term.  And I don't deny things will go tribal, as I said my tribe is the Founders tribe, anybody wanting war with me will get their fair share no matter what other dumbass tribe they belong to.

And Todd is right, but The Great Reckoning will sort it out, it will eject them from the land or fertilize the land...their choice.
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Online patentlymn

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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2017, 06:48:26 PM »
...and more people who do believe in those founding principles and finding themselves being made to care about race and color.

Having endured a sermon on ‘racial tension’ last Sunday (which, overall, wasn’t too bad – but one lady brought up the Trayvon Martin incident from a fear perspective) – today’s “sermon” was a congregational opportunity to share praise & thanks individually in front of the church with a mike…

…now was my chance to take a small swat back.

...

I only recently started hearing of civic nationalism. Primarily from Vox Day.
Someone said that a book with only one new idea in it is worth reading but that most books don't have even that. Vox Day's blog has some content worth reading. He is very full of himself etc.
http://voxday.blogspot.com/

The discussion of church above reminded me of some Vox Day material.

In his recent book, SJWs Always Double Down, he describes a MN church that was destroyed by SJWs. This was North Heights Lutheran Church, destroyed by a female SJW pastor.  The book is OK IMO, not great, but worth the read.

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-wages-of-female-pastorship.html

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2017/10/mailvox-convergence-in-churches.html

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Offline Libertas

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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2017, 07:50:53 AM »
I know all about that first hand...that is/was/is my family church...while that psycho destroyed the church the faithful fled and conducted services at the largest conference hall The Mermaid in Mounds View...eventually the succubus that started all this ran it into the ground...the carcass was reclaimed and genuine Christians are now back in control there.  It was a painful lesson in what not to let happen.  But the evil has been purged...and anything like that trying to resurface in that congregation is going to get swatted down immediately.  This is what Progs do...it's why so many people I see at work and elsewhere disturb me, they've bought into this progressive BS and let it contaminate their churches...and I suspect many are just too weak-willed to speak against it, fearful of what others might think of or say about them...the meek won't inherit anything but a smoldering ash heap that uses to be their world...evil cannot exist without cooperation.  Resistance is mandatory!
Irrumabo!  GOP? - Nope. No more. They made their bed, now let them die in it.*
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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2017, 05:39:31 PM »
I know all about that first hand...that is/was/is my family church...while that psycho destroyed the church the faithful fled and conducted services at the largest conference hall The Mermaid in Mounds View...eventually the succubus that started all this ran it into the ground...the carcass was reclaimed and genuine Christians are now back in control there.  It was a painful lesson in what not to let happen.  But the evil has been purged...and anything like that trying to resurface in that congregation is going to get swatted down immediately.  This is what Progs do...it's why so many people I see at work and elsewhere disturb me, they've bought into this progressive BS and let it contaminate their churches...and I suspect many are just too weak-willed to speak against it, fearful of what others might think of or say about them...the meek won't inherit anything but a smoldering ash heap that uses to be their world...evil cannot exist without cooperation.  Resistance is mandatory!

 ::clapping::

I had only been to that church a couple times. I missed the whole story until I read the SJW book.

I always had an instinctual dislike of most women ministers. I could never put my finger on it.
I didn't think they loved God or people but just wanted to me a WOMAN minister.
When first married there was a woman minister at our church who I liked. Very full of grace somehow. She moved.
Once when back in Madison WI I went to my childhood Lutheran Church. I thought I had walked into a Wicca convention by mistake.

I keep giggling when I think of having a church service at The Mermaid. I don't know why. Sorry. No offence intended. Maybe it is the statute outside or the bowling alley or the bar or ....



When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Offline Libertas

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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2017, 08:08:58 AM »
I have prayed and preyed on the property...

 ;D

Anyway...you do what you can where you can however you can.

Seems the journey my family took has always been defined by evil taking things over.  My father was raised Roman Catholic, my mother Presbyterian.  Mother agreed to be married Catholic as long as the family migrated to something acceptable to both.  My brother and me were baptized Catholic, then raised in the Episcopal Church...my sister was baptized there and we are all confirmed there and us boys did the whole alterboy thing...and I did choir (there were girls...I wasn't there for my voice...the latter sounding like frogs and ball-bearings in a mason jar) and it was a decent congregation and the head Reverend was cold bugger but the Asst. Rev a descent chap.  Then the diocese started their progressive BS...lay-women paving the way for she-reverends...message getting contaminated with pop culture bile...literally saw the congregation change to a bunch of social backbirths...so we bailed...wondered aimlessly in the wilderness here and there before settling on NHLC.

Progs kill everything they touch, everything!  If you treat them like the plague, only then will you survive.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 08:26:34 AM by Libertas »
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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2017, 09:14:33 AM »
Quote
Progs kill everything they touch, everything!  If you treat them like the plague, only then will you survive.

I've got ya beat. I treat 'em like roadkill and only poke them with a stick!

Offline Libertas

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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2017, 09:29:50 AM »
Quote
Progs kill everything they touch, everything!  If you treat them like the plague, only then will you survive.

I've got ya beat. I treat 'em like roadkill and only poke them with a stick!



 ::hysterical::
Irrumabo!  GOP? - Nope. No more. They made their bed, now let them die in it.*
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Offline Glock32

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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2017, 10:35:30 AM »
I consider myself post-conservative now. I don't have a label or even a great definition for it yet, other than a recognition that the conservative movement has been a failure. A political failure yes, but more significantly a cultural failure. It has failed at its definitional purpose, i.e. to "conserve" anything.

On the question of civic nationalism and whether it can actually work, over the long term I would say no. Tribalism is real, it always has been. The great mistake of libertarianism is its insistence on individualism in the face of enemies who reject individualism. It's like a fighter throwing down his weapons to fight honorably, while the opponent just laughs and pulls out his hidden dagger. When I have raised this objection on libertarian discussion boards, I get some version of "ahh but you see, in a libertarian society all would respect individual liberty" and it reminds me of communists and their similar retort that such and such objection would not be accurate in a "true" communist society.

The rise of white identitarianism was inevitable. For a long time white identity was synonymous with Americanism, so it didn't need to be ethnically self-aware, it was just the background, baseline cultural norm and others were defined by either their assimilation or opposition to it. That was the era of civic nationalism -- in retrospect it was really just a case of civic and ethnic nationalism being largely one and the same. But now after generations of relentless assault on it, and the civic institutions being wrenched away from the ethnic identity with which they were previously seamless, white people have begun to see their civic ideals as the expression of ethnic identity. In truth, they always had been. It's just laid bare now.

I think this cartoon is a pretty accurate representation of what's going on:

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Offline Libertas

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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2017, 12:42:18 PM »
I hear ya, G!

"I don't have a label or even a great definition for it yet..."

I try to keep it as simple as possible, I'm for Founding Principles...most people are not, eff the latter!

"...the conservative movement has been a failure."

It's because despite the all too brief experiment with it during The Reagan Revolution it was quickly abandoned by the Establishment hacks that followed...to the point where (much like a JFK would become by the 70's) a Reagan would have no chance of every winning his Party's nomination.  While the Dem's become more hard-left progressives or outright communists...the GOP became more Establishmentarian or outright progressive-lite.  The "conservative" brand doesn't mean what it once did, it is an empty term...meaningless.

"Tribalism is real, it always has been. The great mistake of libertarianism is its insistence on individualism in the face of enemies who reject individualism."

It is real because it has been made that way by people who offer no other choice.  The failure of mainstream libertarianism is the same failure of progressives realizing the existential threat of Islam...they think if the crocodile eats them last that they win.  Failures of comprehension are by their nature due to ignorance or insanity.  With too many people it is a coin flip which of those dominates minute to minute.
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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2017, 02:16:22 PM »

Vox Day discusses this topic sometimes in his blog. He has some periscope videos as well but they are usually too long winded for me.

http://voxday.blogspot.com/
https://www.pscp.tv/voxday
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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2017, 04:13:51 PM »
Glock wrote:  ""Tribalism is real, it always has been. The great mistake of libertarianism is its insistence on individualism in the face of enemies who reject individualism."

Libertas responded:  "It is real because it has been made that way by people who offer no other choice."

I think not, Libertas.  Read again some of the rest of what Glock wrote:

Quote
... Tribalism is real, it always has been.

...  For a long time white identity was synonymous with Americanism, so it didn't need to be ethnically self-aware, it was just the background, baseline cultural norm and others were defined by either their assimilation or opposition to it. That was the era of civic nationalism -- in retrospect it was really just a case of civic and ethnic nationalism being largely one and the same. But now after generations of relentless assault on it, and the civic institutions being wrenched away from the ethnic identity with which they were previously seamless, white people have begun to see their civic ideals as the expression of ethnic identity. In truth, they always had been. It's just laid bare now.

The Tribe is always there.  In a High Trust Society, which we used to be, a limited number of non-Tribe members could be admitted and not a lot was thought of it.  We have become, however, a Low Trust Society because too many different Tribes are present and making a lot of being not-Us, not wanting to be Us and openly admitting enmity towards Us.

It's not that we're left with no choice, it's that now it matters.
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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2017, 04:14:45 PM »

Vox Day discusses this topic sometimes in his blog. He has some periscope videos as well but they are usually too long winded for me.

http://voxday.blogspot.com/
https://www.pscp.tv/voxday

I am a reader of Vox, but I don't listen to the Periscopes.
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Re: Civic Nationalism and the Demise of the American Experiment
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2017, 06:33:07 PM »
Conservatism hasn't failed.  Those that call themselves conservative to access the benefits the Uniparty has to offer, have failed.

You're either part of the Uniparty or not.  Trump has shown us that.  And so has Jill Stein, for that matter.