Author Topic: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......  (Read 1143 times)

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Online ToddF

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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2018, 08:19:28 PM »
We can rearrange supply chains to buy from other countries or ramp up our own production.  Can it be inflationary?  Perhaps.  Will it be disruptive in the short term?  Probably.

But what is the long term cost financing China's exploitation of their smaller Asian neighbors?  What is the long term cost of having millions of Americans not employable?  Not everyone can "learn code."

I'm not knee jerk free trade, anymore.  Anyone not named Kevin Williamson can look out and see the cost of exporting all the low skilled labor production.

Online Pandora

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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2018, 11:22:16 PM »
And some of the higher skilled as well; Verizon moved Gunsmith's job -- and that of his whole department -- to India.

Agree on not-so-free trade
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Online Libertas

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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2018, 10:52:52 AM »
Agreed, I am not going to use the word "fair" because libiots have perverted that word like they pervert everything, so I will say I am more in the "equitable trade" camp now.  The original capitalist model of Adam Smith has been perverted by socialists and crony-capitalist statist clowns and we need to get everybody back to sound basics and common sense.
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Online patentlymn

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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2018, 06:47:35 PM »
We can rearrange supply chains to buy from other countries or ramp up our own production.  Can it be inflationary?  Perhaps.  Will it be disruptive in the short term?  Probably.

But what is the long term cost financing China's exploitation of their smaller Asian neighbors?  What is the long term cost of having millions of Americans not employable?  Not everyone can "learn code."

I'm not knee jerk free trade, anymore.  Anyone not named Kevin Williamson can look out and see the cost of exporting all the low skilled labor production.

Kevin Williamson. He wrote the famous article
https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2016/03/28/father-f-hrer/
“The truth about these dysfunctional, downscale communities is that they deserve to die. Economically, they are negative assets.”

Over at Vox Day, they are having fun now that he got fired from the Atlantic for wrongthink.
https://voxday.blogspot.com/2018/04/a-negative-asset.html?showComment=1523056002833#c8400415354241712474
Thursday, April 05, 2018
A negative asset
What goes around comes around. The truth about the dysfunctional, downscale writer Kevin Williamson is that he deserves to die. Economically, he is a negative asset.

47.  Snidely Whiplash April 05, 2018 9:33 PM
    I'm looking forward to the day KRW is living under a tarp beside the freeway in NYC, sucking d!ck for fentanyl and sh*tting in a bucket. Maybe then he'll be human again.


Everyone having taken economics 'knows' that tariffs are bad etc.  That is the liberal school and Thomas Sowell  school etc.  I don't trust dogma like that. I do not know how they factor in all the unemployment, underemployment, depression, drug use, etc.  I am not saying you cannot put a price on that. I wonder what the price is. Also, if investors in the US gain $2 and workers lose $1.75 I guess that is counted as a gain.  I suspect any gains are shifts to owners of capital.

When talking heads speak of 'the economy' I think they are being dishonest.  Often US citizens already here are being harmed.  Even if the GDP goes up it does not mean that the GDP per capita goes up.

Remove civil service protection and put the govt classes on the same footing as the rest of us.
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Online Libertas

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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2018, 06:17:27 AM »
There should never be public employee unions...ever!

Even the most Jeffersonian-Jackson era Democrat would never be in favor of that level of stupidity!
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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2018, 08:18:21 PM »
I had always thought that Conservatives believed in free trade. Aren't tariffs onerous government regulations? Shouldn't private companies be able to negotiate their own deals? Aren't taxes just bad and stifling in general?

I believe in fair trade. And there's nothing wrong with tariffs - as long as they aren't applied in a ham-fisted way.

Online ToddF

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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2018, 08:30:35 PM »
I don't believe in funding bad people, and furthering their efforts to be the bully of their part of the world.

Besides, China has already blinked.  They have everything to lose.  We don't.


Offline Pablo de Fleurs

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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2018, 08:33:07 PM »
I had always thought that Conservatives believed in free trade. Aren't tariffs onerous government regulations? Shouldn't private companies be able to negotiate their own deals? Aren't taxes just bad and stifling in general?


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Online John Florida

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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2018, 09:52:59 PM »
 Auto builders will buy from whoever has the alloy and the price they don't care who it is. They don't dictate any more than that.  And the auto industry deals with tariffs already.  How are tariffs going to stop construction?  They bid the jobs and that's it everybody pays the same for steel based on volume they buy.

  We can't kill off our steel plants and survive as a nation.

  ETA:
  This is about negotiations not tariffs, the Chinese won't let it get there.
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Online patentlymn

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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2018, 10:12:50 PM »
I had always thought that Conservatives believed in free trade. Aren't tariffs onerous government regulations? Shouldn't private companies be able to negotiate their own deals? Aren't taxes just bad and stifling in general?

I believe in fair trade. And there's nothing wrong with tariffs - as long as they aren't applied in a ham-fisted way.

I guess I don't know a ham-fisted way from any other.. What makes one tariff bad and another one good?

Club for growth said “The idea of imposing steel or aluminum tariffs of any kind is an affront to economic freedom,” .  “First and foremost, it’s bad for the American worker.  For every steel worker job that might be saved because of a tariff, our country will lose even more American jobs in auto plants, construction, and so many other industries.

“Tariffs will also harm the pro-growth effects of the tax cuts, stall the economy, incite a trade war, and help hand the election to the Democrats."

https://www.clubforgrowth.org/uncategorized/club-for-growth-warns-against-steel-and-aluminum-tariffs-and-taxes/

Isn't that the "conservative" position?

That's the free trade dogma taught in schools for the past decades. I am not sure how it comports with reality. 'Conservative' can mean different things.  It can mean conserving what is or leaving everything to market forces.

Example: I watched some youtube video of brits living in Norway decribing what life was like. Such videos are fun to watch for different countries.( I like the ones about China.) The brits said a lot. She mentioned that there were limited selections in the stores and high import duties to protect local industries. i.e. to conserve what was. She said she ordered some health foods over the internet and the customs duties were about 100%. Is that conservative?

Decades past I spent some time in Foxboro MA. The locals were up in arms. There was a proposal to put a McDonalds on the town rotary. Were their objections conservative?

Years ago the French were upset about a French Disneyland polluting France with American culture. Conservative?  The French do not want to see their farmers destroyed by Cargill so they have tariffs. Conservative?

The US used to have 'imposts' which were uniform for imports, and 'tariffs' which benefited certain industries over others. Tariffs were more like crony capitalism. US growth was huge with imposts.

If tariffs serve to conserve what is left of America is that conservative?  Actually, Europe is more conservative than the US in anti-trust law. In the US we only care about cheap stuff for consumers. In the EU they care about producers AND consumers. They try to balance the two.  The EU VAT kinda serves as a tariff as it is added to imports for local consumption  but is rebated for exports.

People who want free market forces to rule all give zero weight to massive unemployment and resultng suicides and drug use. People advocating free trade and immigration often have either govt jobs or jobs protected by govt certifications e.g. medical, teaching.
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Offline AlanS

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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2018, 07:45:46 AM »
Years ago the French were upset about a French Disneyland polluting France with American culture.

Odd. I always thought the French were sort of Mickey Mouse to begin with. ::laughonfloor::
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Online Libertas

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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2018, 11:01:18 AM »
Years ago the French were upset about a French Disneyland polluting France with American culture.

Odd. I always thought the French were sort of Mickey Mouse to begin with. ::laughonfloor::

And now like most of Western Europe they are letting their cultures surrender to Islaminals...poor Charles The Hammer, if he only had a glimpse of the future he would have said "Screw this, I'm outta here!".
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Online Libertas

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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2018, 11:18:21 AM »
Auto builders will buy from whoever has the alloy and the price they don't care who it is. They don't dictate any more than that.  And the auto industry deals with tariffs already.  How are tariffs going to stop construction?  They bid the jobs and that's it everybody pays the same for steel based on volume they buy.

  We can't kill off our steel plants and survive as a nation.

  ETA:
  This is about negotiations not tariffs, the Chinese won't let it get there.

Trump just blinked-- Again-- on his often repeated campaign slogan that he would "label China a currency manipulator"

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/13/us/politics/trump-china-currency-manipulator.html

I think that demonstrates American weakness to China.

None of that makes any sense as an argument...every nation on the planet manipulates currency, commodities, markets...some just do it better than others.  The BRICS main aim is to break the dollar as the worlds reserve currency, but they have no idea what may happen if that occurs and I doubt their little club will survive the post-dollar world.  I find it ironic that the Progressive coup that turned the Democrat Party hard-left also dispatched the idea of "fair trade" and bought hook-line-and-sinker the "Free Trade" dogma of the E-GOP/Club for Growth/COC/Corporatist/Globalist cabal.  It shows the intersection of Progressives and Progressive-Lite agendas and also shows the same intersection on illegal aliens-Progs like the votes and Prog-Lites like the cheap labor.  Both parties need to be rendered to the ash heap.  It is why the Trump Ascendancy succeeded.  How quickly people forget how vicious and vile the Establishment Pubbies were to a Trump candidacy...everybody hog-piled him - Pubbies and Progs...and he kicked their ass anyway because people were no longer buying the Establishments chosen sacrificial nominees and the disdainful "you have to vote for our clown because you will not vote for a worse asshole in the other party" BS they gave real Conservatives for decades.  So The Deplorables got him the nomination and The Deplorables got him the Presidency.  So if you are going to try to instigate an argument on any topic from the lens that Trump is a mainstream Pubbie you best disabuse yourself of such nonsense and try again.
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Offline AlanS

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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2018, 06:47:13 PM »

That was a little jargony and I didn't understand all of it.

The RINO's suck and are getting their ass kicked. How's that?

Elected Republicans can either embrace him or pack their bags like Paul Ryan. Trump is pulling the mainstream toward him. If you like him and trust him then that must feel great. I don't like him or trust him and I grieve for what was once a great party.

The DC establishment hates his guts and they (along with the lamestream media) have done EVERYTHING in their power to subvert/destroy Trump. And yet he gets more popular by the day. The American people are tired of everything about the DC swamp and the establishment. They are on a search and destroy mission to root out the ruling elite.

Your mourning of the "Republican" party that hasn't done sh!t in decades just shows how you've been drinking from the MSM way too much.
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Online patentlymn

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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2018, 07:39:26 PM »
Why would anyone mourn the 'old' GOP?  GHWB? GWB? Romney? Mccain?

One of my favorite moments was in the GOP debates where Trump was the only one one stage who was not a warmonger. Of course that upset the military industrial complex so all we hear now is about Russia.

Another moment was where Trump said that the GOP was now the workers party and Bernie's head likely exploded.  The fact that the Dems and GOP had both crapped on US workers was laid bare.
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Online ToddF

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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2018, 07:53:05 PM »
If Rick Wilson and Bill "Captain Stubing" Kristol had a bastard child...

One of my ongoing theories of life is that Poli Sci graduates with R's after their name are ever bit as douchey as Poli Sci graduates with D's after their name.  I have yet to be proven wrong.

Offline Pablo de Fleurs

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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2018, 08:06:07 PM »

That was a little jargony and I didn't understand all of it.

The RINO's suck and are getting their ass kicked. How's that?

Elected Republicans can either embrace him or pack their bags like Paul Ryan. Trump is pulling the mainstream toward him. If you like him and trust him then that must feel great. I don't like him or trust him and I grieve for what was once a great party.

The DC establishment hates his guts and they (along with the lamestream media) have done EVERYTHING in their power to subvert/destroy Trump. And yet he gets more popular by the day. The American people are tired of everything about the DC swamp and the establishment. They are on a search and destroy mission to root out the ruling elite.

Your mourning of the "Republican" party that hasn't done sh!t in decades just shows how you've been drinking from the MSM way too much.

"The Establishment" is a term that I don't think has a precise definition. Abstractions are only helpful if you can trace them back to their literal meanings. Could you re-phrase that in terms of concrete people or institutions?

Who specifically are the "DC swamp and establishment" and why do they "hate his guts"?

Some folks speak to hear themselves talk. This l'il Greek pecks @ the keyboard to see himself "published" online.
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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2018, 09:20:00 PM »
Why would anyone mourn the 'old' GOP?  GHWB? GWB? Romney? Mccain?

One of my favorite moments was in the GOP debates where Trump was the only one one stage who was not a warmonger. Of course that upset the military industrial complex so all we hear now is about Russia.

Another moment was where Trump said that the GOP was now the workers party and Bernie's head likely exploded.  The fact that the Dems and GOP had both crapped on US workers was laid bare.

Dhimmicrats would mourn the old incontinent GOPe - because their feckless and ineffectual manner allowed the progs to destroy the fabric that is our union.

It's time to restore now.

Online Pandora

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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2018, 09:35:36 PM »

That was a little jargony and I didn't understand all of it.

The RINO's suck and are getting their ass kicked. How's that?

Elected Republicans can either embrace him or pack their bags like Paul Ryan. Trump is pulling the mainstream toward him. If you like him and trust him then that must feel great. I don't like him or trust him and I grieve for what was once a great party.

The DC establishment hates his guts and they (along with the lamestream media) have done EVERYTHING in their power to subvert/destroy Trump. And yet he gets more popular by the day. The American people are tired of everything about the DC swamp and the establishment. They are on a search and destroy mission to root out the ruling elite.

Your mourning of the "Republican" party that hasn't done sh!t in decades just shows how you've been drinking from the MSM way too much.

Yeah, the concern troll trolls.  It's a self-admitted "liberal" so, so much for the "once a great party".
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Online John Florida

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Re: On steel and aluminum tariffs .......
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2018, 08:17:58 PM »
  Speaking of the Chicoms  on the drive back NPR announce that the Chicoms  will end their partnerships with auto companies there in the next 5 years.  That's huge because they have no new access to the technology that they were stealing.  GM of course would rather continue their partnership.
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