Topics > Politics/Legislation/Elections
A Modest Proposal to avoid Civil War - An experiment
Weisshaupt:
Hi all,
So I would like to wargame this idea a little and propose a bit of an experiment with it.. I would like you to propose it to Liberal family and friends and note their reactions.. I originally posted the idea to Facebook for a bit of a laugh...and if you hate a part of it yourself or think there are issues - let me know what they are ..
So here is the proposal. Peaceful separation. Both sides get what they want. Liberals can live in a place where they can have Gun Control, Abortion on Demand, Limits on Hate Speech, Guaranteed Incomes, State or Worker owned companies- everything on their laundry list and that their little hearts desire. And the racist, deplorable, bitter bible and gun clinging morons in Flyover country can have what they want - to be left alone.
The Liberals draft a new Constitution for the City-States, and Backwater America keeps the old one- but now it is made clear it will enforced according to the original meaning.
Each County votes to decide if they want to join the New, Enlightened,woke and Superior Socialist City States of America, or if they want to remain in racist, bigoted, superstitious Backwater America.
Individuals would then Choose which new government they wish to be a citizen of: Backwater or City State. Individuals - regardless of citizenship, may choose to live and/or work in either Backwater America or in the City-States. Only Backwater Citizens may vote in Backwater elections, and only City-State Citizens may vote in City-State elections. At any time a county may vote to leave their current government without penalty - to join the other government under conditions and terms dictated by that government at the time of the vote. Only people who live in the county and who are citizens of the current government can vote to do realign the county to a new government.
Any Citizen wanting to become a citizen of the other government must petition that government to make the switch, and meet whatever criterion set forth by that government's legislature.
While any individual is present in a jurisdiction the laws of that jurisdiction will apply. Crimes committed in a jurisdiction will be prosecuted within that jurisdiction according to that jurisdiction's laws. Juries will be composed of only Citizens drawn from that jurisdiction..
Any programs using powers not specifically enumerated in the old Constitution will be cancelled and discontinued in Backwater America , but the City States have the option to continue them.
Therefore current Social Security, Welfare and other entitlements can be transferred and administrated by the City States. The City States will be free to remove Backwater citizens from the benefit and entitlement rolls, or they may offer non-citizens an opportunity to continue with those programs voluntarily, under such payments, terms & commitments , buy in or buy out conditions as the City-State Government deems acceptable. No Backwater citizen may be compelled to participate in or fund such programs via the use of government force, but will be subject to the terms of such programs if they participate voluntarily.
Each new government is responsible for policing any international border in any county in their membership.
Backwater America , however, will be responsible for protecting the nation in general, and will take over operation of the military. The City States may choose to create their own military and fortifications, however Backwater America is obligated to protect all of the former United States of America from foreign invasion, and the City-States may not make any military alliances or wage wars without Backwater America's approval.
The current National debt will be split. The Federal Reserve will continue to operate as normal, and each new government may borrow money on the same terms as the old federal government
The City States can make their own international trade alliances, but all trade between Backwater America and the City-States will be unrestricted.
Established Corporations from the old United States of America are treated as foreign corporations by the new governments. A corporation may choose to re-incorporate under one or both governments. If It reincorporates under only one government, then the other government treats it as a foreign corporation.
A corporation pays corporate taxes and follows the regulations established by either government according to its status.
Sales or property tax may be established by jurisdiction and by both the local and new national governments if their constitutions allow it.
Regulations are also jurisdictional. If City-States require a corporation to provide insurance , day care or other benefits - any location owned or operated by that corporation in a City-States county would be obligated to provide those services and abide by any regulations or inspections required by the City-State government.
Either government may impose income taxes if their constitution allows it, but only upon the citizens of its nation.
For example, if a City-State citizen lives in a Backwater County, but works at a City-State location, they are subject to the taxes on property or sales tax in that Backwater county, but may also be taxed on income and receive benefits (like insurance) from their employer because of the laws of the City-State government.
Current State Governments are abolished, but Counties may decide to band together to form new State governments if that is desired or needed.
And the Libtards on facebook respond with
"you are dividing us!"
We are already divided.
"Thats not what our soldiers fought for!"
Self-determination isn't an American value? They didn't fight for gun control, abortion or unrestricted immigration either. This way you can have all of those things.
"We can't set up checkpoints at every county border!"
Who said anything about checkpoints? I said free movement of people and goods.What are these checkpoints for? Why do you think they are needed? ( no answers)
"We can't duplicate every court and school system ..its wasteful!"
Schools and Courts are already based on County. If a county moves, so does the school system and the laws that apply to it.
For higher courts, are you saying Judges are too stupid to apply one set of laws in one case and another in a different one?
Even if Judges couldn't be trusted, weigh the cost of a new set of courts and judges vs. the costs of a civil war. Heck just the money not spent lobbying could probably pay for it
(no answers)
"This is totally unworkable!"
The Maori and Kiwis can do it and live among each other - why can't we?
"If we don't work together in the same government, there will be no balance of politcal ideas"
What would prevent either side from hiring consultants from opposing politcal viewpoints to testify to their legislatures?
Wouldn't those consultants be even more influential because no one is playing a winner-take-all game when listening to them?
And they didn't even notice or object to the real trap set there.. that they take entitlement programs. You know they would cut off Rural America- they would HAVE to - since they couldn't force participation... so you know the real non-productive zeros would move to the City State areas. Rural America would go back to funding things via Private Charity - It would force the collapse of the City States in maybe 10-15 years and then those counties, eventually, and peacefully , vote to join Backwater America.
Of course the real reason they won't agree is because Freedom offend them. See if you can get them to say it - that they need and want totalitarian control because they think everyone should behave as they think they should..
Pandora:
We'd need separate courts, imo.
Alphabet Soup:
A couple of random thoughts, presented in no particular order (and obviously not comprehensively thought through)
1. It's giving up and I hate that.
2. It makes us even more vulnerable to attack/invasion/conquest than we already are.
3. It would likely reduce us to 2nd (if not 3rd) world status
4. What would become of those trapped behind enemy lines?
As you can see, if this is a serious proposition and not just a thought exercise I'm against it.
And I close with this caveat: I can't run this by my liberal friends because they all walked away from me and now I have none. (not that I am complaining!)
Weisshaupt:
--- Quote from: Alphabet Soup on March 15, 2019, 08:43:57 PM ---
1. It's giving up and I hate that.
--- End quote ---
Not really. Giving them their own space to hang themselves is ensuring we win. The City-State County's would be begging to rejoin Backwater in 10-20 years.
It just gets them off our backs while they self destruct. Or at least that is the intent of the deal. The Left can't win. They can round up and kill every conservative and in the end they get poverty and misery spread equally - because that is what their stupid ideas do. America has cancer. We need to cut it out and make sure it doesn't spread anymore. If you mean I am giving up on liberals and idiots too stupid to look up from their candy crush? Yeah.. I AM doing that.
--- Quote from: Alphabet Soup on March 15, 2019, 08:43:57 PM ---2. It makes us even more vulnerable to attack/invasion/conquest than we already are.
--- End quote ---
Right now people just walk across the border.
Can you Explain? Backwater keeps the Military and duty of Nationwide protection. The City-State can import as many immigrants as they like... even make them City-State Citizens. Doesn't mean they get to vote in Backwater elections. And Since one would have to petition each government to change citizenship.. no Birth Cert? No Job? No skills? On Welfare? Denied. The only people really vulnerable to attack would be the coastal city-states.. and only if Backwater allows it. Backwater no longer pays for social security or other entitlements. Backwater keeps roughly 1/2 of the GDP - te part actually produced by work and not paperp pushing services and the GDP will grow faster without the stupid regulations, and the current military budget is 1/3 of current spending.. and a lot less will be spent on lobbying - because most of the decsions will be at a county level and people will be far more politically aligned.. Backwater could afford at least the current level of military engagement.
But maybe there is an angle I am missing?
--- Quote from: Alphabet Soup on March 15, 2019, 08:43:57 PM ---3. It would likely reduce us to 2nd (if not 3rd) world status
--- End quote ---
Look around lately? Some places in the US (Any California city) already are. A Civil war will ensure 3rd world and worse.
But not sure why you feel this deal would accelerate that trend. Useless people would largely move to the cities for the socialism -- after all, its almost a sure bet the liberals would cut off benefits to backwater areas - especially if they can't compel taxes to fund them. And useful people move into more rural areas, because Backwater will be Captialist and have low tax rates But anyone can work or live anywhere.
GDP will probably go down-- but not anywhere near as much as it will when the dollar collapses
--- Quote from: Alphabet Soup on March 15, 2019, 08:43:57 PM ---4. What would become of those trapped behind enemy lines?
--- End quote ---
How are they trapped? Part of the deal is that anyone can move to live anywhere - they just can't vote if they live among the "other"
If the liberals started building walls or checkpoints - its an act of war - and we have the military and Militia . City-States are allowed to raise an Army - but they probably won't - as they are pacifist, cowardly and that money could be better spent on the children. So I don't understand how anyone becomes trapped. Your county part of City-States? Sell your property and get the hell out. Miss your friends? drive to go see them, just like you can now.
I do welcome the constructive criticism - but I am afraid I don't understand the reasons/scenarios driving your thinking.
Weisshaupt:
--- Quote from: Pandora on March 15, 2019, 07:46:35 PM ---We'd need separate courts, imo.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, Probably. The particular liberal that brought that up is double evil - a lawyer and a Democrat . So I was more digging at his elitism about how lawyers and lawyers who become Judges are just so dang smart and honorable and would never bring politics into their jobs.. see how stupid it sounds when you say it out loud .... So Yes, we would probably need to duplicate the court systems above the county level, just so we can appoint and remove if needed, judges behaving badly. Still seems way cheaper than shooting each other.. especially - if left unopposed and to their own devices, the liberals will shoot themselves.
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