Author Topic: Co Generation  (Read 2481 times)

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Offline Weisshaupt

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Co Generation
« on: June 15, 2011, 05:47:43 PM »
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/homeenergy/freewatt.aspx

Make Electricty at the same time you heat the house.

Online Pandora

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Re: Co Generation
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2011, 06:29:03 PM »
Hmmmm.  Interesting, indeed.

I wish these companies did not tout their "green" credentials.
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Offline John Florida

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Re: Co Generation
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2011, 07:54:08 PM »
Hmmmm.  Interesting, indeed.

I wish these companies did not tout their "green" credentials.

 Need a small house to use that. 12,000 btu heat isn't much My furnace in Connecticut was rated at 160,000. btu.But in the right place it could be interesting.
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Offline AlanS

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Re: Co Generation
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2011, 07:58:28 PM »
I hate when they don't put a price tag. ::bashing::
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Offline John Florida

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Re: Co Generation
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2011, 09:06:21 PM »
I hate when they don't put a price tag. ::bashing::

 Don't hate it,if it's honda it ain't cheap.(and it's green)
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Offline Glock32

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Re: Co Generation
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2011, 09:21:32 PM »
I wonder what the cost of a kWh generated from propane or natural gas in this engine is vs. the cost of a kWh from the electrical utility.
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Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: Co Generation
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2011, 09:26:10 PM »
Hmmmm.  Interesting, indeed.

I wish these companies did not tout their "green" credentials.

I look askance as well. Phony. Phraud. Phake. That's what I think when I see anybody pushing the latest "Pet Rock".

I'll keep my money and they can keep their crap.

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Co Generation
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2011, 10:12:12 AM »
I wonder what the cost of a kWh generated from propane or natural gas in this engine is vs. the cost of a kWh from the electrical utility.


There is no doubt in my mind that it will cost more to run this in the near term  ( at least until Obama is done bankrupting the Coal industry)
However,  I thought it was interesting because if you are considering a small off grid cabin where you will need a generator either as the main source of Electric power or as a backup to the solar ,  this allows you to putthe heat to good use heating the house as well.  Supplimented with  solar panel air heat (like these DIYs - though professional panels can also be had) - the output is probably enough for a decent sized place.

There are no silver bullets, but every little bit is going to help. If you need a generator and you paid for the propane anyway  - might as well get all you can out of it - providing the pet rock isn't too stupidly expensive.  Good. Fast. Cheap.  Pick two.
  
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 12:36:53 PM by Weisshaupt »

Offline John Florida

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Re: Co Generation
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2011, 11:41:56 AM »
I wonder what the cost of a kWh generated from propane or natural gas in this engine is vs. the cost of a kWh from the electrical utility.


There is no doubt in my mind that it will cost more to run this in the near term  ( at least until Obama is done bankrupting the Coal industry)
However,  I thought it was interesting because if you are considering a small off grid cabin where you will need a generator either as the main source of Electric power or as a backup to the solar ,  this allows you to putthe heat to good use heating the house as well.  Supplimented with  solar panel air heat (like these DIYs - though professional panels can also be had) - the output is probably enough for a decent sized place.

There are no silver bullets, but every little bit is going to help. If you need a generator and you paid for the propane anyway  - might as well get all you can out of it - porviding the pet rock isn't too stupidly expensive.  Good. Fast. Cheap.  Pick two.
 


 Any idea on dollars??
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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Co Generation
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2011, 12:59:35 PM »
Any idea on dollars??

Found this: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/04/honda_and_clima.php

Quote
The price for Freewatt micro-CHP with warm-air heater is approximately $13,000 installed, depending upon the complexity of the installation.

The introductory model requires electricity for start-up and operation, so it is not the solution for off-gridders or people looking for the security of generating their own heat and power in a grid crash. However, Climate Energy is developing a system which will provide up to 1.8 kilowatts of power during a black-out.


So  you can't use this as a standalone generator without another power source (yet) - You could probably fake it out with a solar/inverter/battery system.  Or just wait for the off grid model and use it through an inverter/batt charger to charge the same batts the solar uses.


  $13K  installed isn't too bad and it probably qualifies for the 30% tax rebate. If the furnace is grid tied and  runs 6 months a year for an average of 12 hours a day at 1.2KW, it will generate around  2600 kw-hrs of electricity to be used or sold back to the grid. The average American home uses  500-600kw-hours a month- so this will provide about 1/3 of the electric needed to run the home for a year.  Payback depends on how much propane is used , cost of propane and the cost of the grid electricity. Furnace is supposed to be 95% so it could work out to be a decent return over 10 years.--assuming propane and grid costs remain constant or nearly so. Faster if you think they will rise.

Offline John Florida

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Re: Co Generation
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2011, 02:29:19 PM »
But 12,000 btus isn't going to do a hell of a lot of space.

 And 1.8 kilawatts isn't a hell of a lot either. What's that going to run?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 02:32:43 PM by John Florida »
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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Co Generation
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2011, 04:10:37 PM »
But 12,000 btus isn't going to do a hell of a lot of space.

 And 1.8 kilawatts isn't a hell of a lot either. What's that going to run?

Its seems its meant more as an axillary system, than a one size fits all solution.

12,000 BTUs is more than enough to heat one of those 600 sq ft R42 SIP Yurts. Might even be too hot.  It all depends on how much space you have, how tight your house is, and the temperature differential you want to maintain.  If your outside  low is -30F then you have a different design constraint than if its 15F. Likewise it take fewer BTUs to keep a house above 50F than it does to keep it at 70.

If you have a bigger house and you primarily  heat with solar air, or an in floor solar water radiant system... and this system only kicks on when those are not adequately heating the house on their own,, this can still make sense.
 
Electric Power is the same thing.  If you aren't using it ,it runs the meter backward. If you are using it ( or more) it runs the meter forward less. In the end this system would provide about 4 months worth of electric power a year. Add it to a Solar array and its another source of power ( its very common to have a generator attached to a off-grid solar system to charge batteries when the solar output just didn't quite make it that day) Once the power is in the batteries you can draw more than 1.2Kw at any given time.

Like all green tech,  most of this requires 10 years or more to ROI, and makes dubious sense at current prices.  Make Coal plants go out of business and Electric power go to $1 KW ( meaning an ave electric bill of $600 month) and suddenly these things make more sense to do.