Author Topic: Former USSR  (Read 1730 times)

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Offline Libertas

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2023, 09:33:02 AM »
Some people miss the benefits of Nazism too  ::)  so to me tankies/nazis...same diff...

"We" meaning US or "we" meaning Euro's?

I read an interesting book about the 1930-1940s Germany and Hitler. Hitlerland.  Western diplomats and journalists wrote their impressions of Germany and Hitler at the time. They were impressed but a little creeped out. Very efficient and clean but ....

The women thought Hitler was effeminate and a "neuter."
US military attache wanted to get a look at modern German war planes but no way. Until Lindberg visited and the Germans fell all over themselves showing him around. The attache tagged along.

Lots of prominent American businessmen (in varying degrees of interest) were nominally supportive of working with the early pre-war/holocaust Nazi regime...many from a pragmatic check to communism and/or a smart business decision...given most prominent industrialists had investments and/or operations in Germany at the time.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2023, 09:34:30 AM »
...

"We" meaning US or "we" meaning Euro's?

I was just pulling 1984. As WWII history is being morphed. I recall Blinken recently kinda blamed the NAZI/Banderite Kiev massacres on the Russians.  BTW I am aware of the Katyn(?) Poland massacre by the USSR blamed on the Germans.

Yeah, this script stinks from every angle.
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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2023, 11:31:29 AM »
...

"We" meaning US or "we" meaning Euro's?

I was just pulling 1984. As WWII history is being morphed. I recall Blinken recently kinda blamed the NAZI/Banderite Kiev massacres on the Russians.  BTW I am aware of the Katyn(?) Poland massacre by the USSR blamed on the Germans.

Yeah, this script stinks from every angle.

I recall Ford was invested in germanay big time and might have stayed invested wuring WWII.

Here is a meme on the current history rewrite/morph.
A meme on
https://t.me/inessas1992/4806
🤦?? Zelensky's grandfather, Simeon Zelensky, was Lieutenant of the Red Army in 1944, and had two orders of the Red Star for repelling Nazi forces from the Dnepropetrovsk region, Ukraine.

💲How MUCH did they pay Zelensky to throw it all away like that (https://t.me/inessas1992/4805?single)?
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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2024, 03:23:56 PM »
What about the 18 million housed in gulags and the 1.7 million who perished as a result?  Political dissidents and non-conformists of the communist utopia should have more weight given to their voices...

He has other docs on those. He couldn't mention gulags in docs about various housing models. He has a separate doc on each of 4 different mass housing models.

Not sure of the number in gulags. I may read up on those later. I came cross a statement in the book by Andrei the grumpy Russian.. Then I asked around. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn was a fraud who exaggerated the number in the gulags by one or two orders of magnitude.  Russians did not like him for various reasons and few went to his funeral. His wife said he just made things up.

After USSR fell he had the opportunity to examine records. He refused, saying the gulag books were fiction.
The Gulag Archipelago: An Experiment in Literary Investigation

There are historians who did investigate the gulags after 1991. They mock him.

He was a useful idiot (Lenin phrase?) for the west.

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Offline Libertas

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2024, 08:13:39 AM »
What about the 18 million housed in gulags and the 1.7 million who perished as a result?  Political dissidents and non-conformists of the communist utopia should have more weight given to their voices...

He has other docs on those. He couldn't mention gulags in docs about various housing models. He has a separate doc on each of 4 different mass housing models.

Not sure of the number in gulags. I may read up on those later. I came cross a statement in the book by Andrei the grumpy Russian.. Then I asked around. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn was a fraud who exaggerated the number in the gulags by one or two orders of magnitude.  Russians did not like him for various reasons and few went to his funeral. His wife said he just made things up.

After USSR fell he had the opportunity to examine records. He refused, saying the gulag books were fiction.
The Gulag Archipelago: An Experiment in Literary Investigation

There are historians who did investigate the gulags after 1991. They mock him.

He was a useful idiot (Lenin phrase?) for the west.

So then, what's the over/under for good gulags vs bad gulags?
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Online patentlymn

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2024, 01:16:00 PM »
What about the 18 million housed in gulags and the 1.7 million who perished as a result?  Political dissidents and non-conformists of the communist utopia should have more weight given to their voices...

He has other docs on those. He couldn't mention gulags in docs about various housing models. He has a separate doc on each of 4 different mass housing models.

Not sure of the number in gulags. I may read up on those later. I came cross a statement in the book by Andrei the grumpy Russian.. Then I asked around. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn was a fraud who exaggerated the number in the gulags by one or two orders of magnitude.  Russians did not like him for various reasons and few went to his funeral. His wife said he just made things up.

After USSR fell he had the opportunity to examine records. He refused, saying the gulag books were fiction.
The Gulag Archipelago: An Experiment in Literary Investigation

There are historians who did investigate the gulags after 1991. They mock him.

He was a useful idiot (Lenin phrase?) for the west.

So then, what's the over/under for good gulags vs bad gulags?
I did not know there were good gulags.
I will likely try to read up on the gulags.
I have a book, still unread, ,on how the average person viewed the gulags and the terror.
Maybe much of what I learned about the USSR was propaganda from US.
I read some books by K Ghodsee who interviewed lots of people from former USSR, mostly while she lived in Bulgaria.
I will post a summary of some next. Interesting reading I always thought that anthropologists were the most honest of social scientists, at least in the old days.

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2024, 01:19:23 PM »

I read some Some Kristen Ghodsee books. In short, life for everyone did not get better after USSR fell and many got worse. Some did not recover to USSR levels for 30 years if then. Having crooks steal your money is not good.

Lost in Transition is my favorite so far. The most human. Good stories. The so called "conspircy theories" of her male friend rang true to me. The CIA bought votes and paid for protests? Geez. Vicotoria Nuland said US pumped $5B into Ukraine then came regime change and the coup. US NED pumps lots of money into 'pro democracy' protests world wide.

Why Women Have Better Sex Under Socialism is good and the most feminist. In short, without govt help, women are at a disadvantage compared to men under capitalism. Women sexually are less likely to be bought and sold for sex if the govt aids them with daycare etc.

Taking Stock of Shock. Very data driven. Lots of tables, charts, plots, maps in the first half. In short, different countries and regions varied in recovery after USSR fell. Visagrad did better than most. Central Asia did worse economically but death rates did not soar like many places. maybe Islam helped.

I am not done with this reading yet. Bald and Bankrupt and TheRevolutionReport are video bloggers who interviewed people in former USSR who shocked me by saying things were worse off for them.
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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2024, 01:20:10 PM »

I just finished The Red Riviera (Kristen Ghodsee). I liked it. A very human book, not too many tables. She lived in Bulgaria for a while, had a Bulgarian husband, child, and studied the tourism and hospitality sector which employed mostly women. She had been living in Maine and teaching at university. She compared USSR era with post USSR era. She has a creative writing style where she fills in lots details.

Under communism, women were trained to work in tourism. It brought in money from other communist countries. Soviet block could make it hard to travel outside the block and Bulgaria was on the Black Sea and later had ski resorts. USSR feared defections and cultural contamination.

Mostly women employees who needed a university degree in correct area, good Bulgarian, and fluent in two other languages. They did well. When the USSR fell they often did well then also as they spoke western languages and worked in places bringing in hard currencies. Their husbands were often unemployed after USSR. The hotels might be sold off to connected party members and the mafia obtained some. The women used their connections to their advantage after the USSR fell (The Changes).

The last chapter was named "Feminism by Design" and my favorite. In short, western NGOs descended on the place and focused on how the women had been exploited. The NGOs would only get grants with such focus. Except the Bulgarian tourist employee women thought the western feminists were out of touch man haters. They had it good compared to most. Someone, maybe the author. said that the western NGOs wanted to pit the women against men rather than have both join in class struggle against the west.

Kristen took out a cigarette and her friend offered her a light, then the lighter. She said she had several she had 'privatized' from western tourists. Kristen asked what the difference was between privatizing and stealing. "There isn't one" was the reply.

So, she took her husband and 3 year old daughter to visit Bulgaria. She got travel documents for her two basset hounds and included one in her book. Looks like a passport.

So, she says in US bassets are adored maybe due to the hush puppie shoe ads. In Bulgaria they have never been seen and people view them as the mutant spawn of Satan. Children scream and grandmothers curse when she walked the dogs. Seriously. That was in her book Lost in Transition. A very personal book about her and other  people.

It was suggested she walk them in a soccer stadium outside of town. First 3 times went well. Fourth time she let them loose only to find sheep grazing. The bassets went nuts chasing the sheep. The shepherds went nuts at the devil dogs. One connected with a thrown rock but she was able to stop the shepherd with the axe.

She finally stopped the shepherds by explaining that they were American dogs who had never seen sheep. The shepherds had never met an American much less a mutant American dog. Plus, what kind of dog has not seen a sheep? It took a half hour to explain it all.

update

Bulgaria was closely allied and one of the most loyal satellite states of the Soviet Union during the Cold War, sometimes being called the 16th Soviet Republic rather than an independent country. Bulgaria was also part of Comecon as well as a member of the Warsaw Pact.

Bulgaria remained part of the Eastern Bloc until 1989, when the BCP began to drift away from the USSR. The first multi-party elections were held in 1990 and the BCP lost power in elections the following year.
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Online patentlymn

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2024, 01:23:44 PM »
Read Red Hangover by Kristin Ghodsee
Others

Trigger warning at the end.

Read Red Hangover by Kristin Ghodsee (2017). Mostly her interviews with Bulgarians about the"transition" after USSR collapse.

She shared her love of typewriters and the history of their making in USSR.

She gives the history of how the subject/book of how sex was better under socialism was written. There was some poll in East Germany. Then a cheesy documentary. Then I recall she wrote an op ed then later the book with that name. Also, she wrote some history. There was no sex education in west Germany but there was more in East Germany. Perhaps due to the church in west Germany.

Later things changed and there was more commercialized sex in the west.
Cheesy doc at link.

https://youtu.be/ZW3aOdUl3e8

She tells about interviewing some woman whose family had to borrow money after the USSR fell, for medicine as I recall. No more free health care. They had to borrow from gangsters. They broke her father's ribs and arm. She had to work it off.

The woman was dark skinned and could pass for Roma. The govt had outlawed foreign adoptions of orphans after the USSR fell. So it went underground. She had to pass as some relative and get kids out of orphanages. Many were Roma. She had to lie and often bribe using forged documents. . I recall she needed to get 5 kids out to pay off the debt.

She ran into a refusal once from a difficult director. She knew there would be a problem after she saw communist symbols on her office wall. The gangsters apologized as they should have known. I keep forgetting that part of communism was a utopian morality. I was raised to think it was all gulags.

Then the phone of her contact went dead and she was not called any more. She picked up a newspaper and learned why. A child organ harvesting ring had been busted.
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Online patentlymn

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2024, 02:32:55 PM »

Not sure if accurate. Why many Russians like Stalin. Says 644 thousand people executed.
https://t.me/putingers_cat/8717

Foreigners often ask Russians why they like Stalin.  ...Wasn’t he a bloody tyrant?  After all, that’s what they’ve been told their whole lives…

This video provides a brief summary of why Russians like Stalin.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2024, 08:15:38 AM »


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Soviet_Union_GDP_per_capita.gif

also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Yeah, not buying that Soviet line...they collapsed economically...no way their real GDP was rising into collapse...flatten that red line to the 9 mark and marrying to the blue...

Wiki!  Pah!  Remember when you could edit their stuff and save it...then they started policing the edits and now there is only their peeps controlling it now...

 ::mooning::
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Offline Libertas

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2024, 08:18:40 AM »

Not sure if accurate. Why many Russians like Stalin. Says 644 thousand people executed.
https://t.me/putingers_cat/8717

Foreigners often ask Russians why they like Stalin.  ...Wasn’t he a bloody tyrant?  After all, that’s what they’ve been told their whole lives…

This video provides a brief summary of why Russians like Stalin.

Yeah, only 644k, right....

/

No different than saying you like Satan...

Yeah, swell...enjoy that...
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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2024, 03:56:38 PM »

I am trying to learn more about the USSR and the collapse. What if we have only been taught the bad stuff? What started this was Bald and Bankrupt and others interviewing old people on the street in former USSR. I bought a book Russophobia.From the cover it seems to have started with the split in Christendom. It sure did not start in 2022. I  always thought that the palace guards in the wizard of oz looked Russian.

There was a joke where no matter what was criticized in USSR by Americans their reply was "But you lynch Negroes." I knew an exchange student from Siberia. Her image of blacks was protesters being attacked by police dogs for trying to vote. When she left it was obese violent girls who took their kids to HS free day care.

I watched a doc where they gave subjects to avoid in Russia.  One was Stalin.
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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2024, 04:48:58 PM »


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Soviet_Union_GDP_per_capita.gif

also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Yeah, not buying that Soviet line...they collapsed economically...no way their real GDP was rising into collapse...flatten that red line to the 9 mark and marrying to the blue...

Wiki!  Pah!  Remember when you could edit their stuff and save it...then they started policing the edits and now there is only their peeps controlling it now...

 ::mooning::

I think it was rising until the collapse which was worse than the US great depression. I read a book Taking Stock of Shock with several chapters full of data. I have another book that is mostly a hit job on Jeffery Sachs who was involved in the so called shock therapy. He was involved in that mess then quit and apparently tried to walk back some of what he did or said.

I am thinking that Americans image of USSR is mostly 1930s and gulags. I saw a doc where some USSR head walked into a TX grocery store and was shocked. It was not a planned visit. WWII took decades to recover from for Russia. Thank God for video bloggers. They can walk around, talk to people, and take videos.

There is a good YT channel The Ushanka Show from a guy who grew up in Ukraine SSR and now lives in US MI. He goes into the minutia of life in USSR. His dad was a spray painter at the Antonov aircraft plant. He got lucky and taught photography at a summer camp in US MI and later moved here. I like his details on the petty fraud and theft.

Here is why I like video bloggers. Just one reason. Not what I expected. There are lots of videos of the villages also. This is in Moscow.
Where are the KGB agents in trench coats?
https://youtu.be/SAWUf7CPCK4?t=2185

There are arguments both ways on whether the rest of Russia subsidizes Moscow or the other way around.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/872xga/when_boris_yeltsin_visited_texas_in_1990_he_went/
When Boris Yeltsin visited Texas in 1990, he went to a grocery store and was shocked by the abundance of food. This shattered his view of Communism and led to him reforming Russia. With all the Russian spies, how did the government officials not know about the condition of America before this?
https://englishrussia.com/2015/01/20/borist-yeltsin-in-american-supermarket/
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Online patentlymn

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2024, 05:58:13 PM »
Also I am not sure how or why the USSR collapsed. David stockman said the reason that they could not keep up with US military spending was BS. I heard there was a USSR wide referendum and most wanted to keep it together but the leaders ignored them and dissolved the USSR. Many think the leaders sold them out. Lots of looting went on by insiders and outsiders.

The joke is that everything they were told about communism was a lie but everything they were told about capitalism was true.

I think the baltics got a head start on leaving.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2024, 08:14:03 AM »


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Soviet_Union_GDP_per_capita.gif

also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Yeah, not buying that Soviet line...they collapsed economically...no way their real GDP was rising into collapse...flatten that red line to the 9 mark and marrying to the blue...

Wiki!  Pah!  Remember when you could edit their stuff and save it...then they started policing the edits and now there is only their peeps controlling it now...

 ::mooning::

I think it was rising until the collapse which was worse than the US great depression. I read a book Taking Stock of Shock with several chapters full of data. I have another book that is mostly a hit job on Jeffery Sachs who was involved in the so called shock therapy. He was involved in that mess then quit and apparently tried to walk back some of what he did or said.

I am thinking that Americans image of USSR is mostly 1930s and gulags. I saw a doc where some USSR head walked into a TX grocery store and was shocked. It was not a planned visit. WWII took decades to recover from for Russia. Thank God for video bloggers. They can walk around, talk to people, and take videos.

There is a good YT channel The Ushanka Show from a guy who grew up in Ukraine SSR and now lives in US MI. He goes into the minutia of life in USSR. His dad was a spray painter at the Antonov aircraft plant. He got lucky and taught photography at a summer camp in US MI and later moved here. I like his details on the petty fraud and theft.

Here is why I like video bloggers. Just one reason. Not what I expected. There are lots of videos of the villages also. This is in Moscow.
Where are the KGB agents in trench coats?
https://youtu.be/SAWUf7CPCK4?t=2185

There are arguments both ways on whether the rest of Russia subsidizes Moscow or the other way around.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/872xga/when_boris_yeltsin_visited_texas_in_1990_he_went/
When Boris Yeltsin visited Texas in 1990, he went to a grocery store and was shocked by the abundance of food. This shattered his view of Communism and led to him reforming Russia. With all the Russian spies, how did the government officials not know about the condition of America before this?
https://englishrussia.com/2015/01/20/borist-yeltsin-in-american-supermarket/

Well, I recall near the end there was rampant (I mean rampant!) alcoholism and absenteeism...[side bar - at this time I told a former pal of mine who saw himself as an intellectual liberal that if that sh*t ever came here I would not be working either!  I'd be a proud state-declared hooligan]...people were just sitting drunk on their ass waiting for their govt check and their vodka, bread & cheese...store shelves were bare and lines were long whenever anything came in...societal morale was a uniform glum...and the smart ones like Putin seeing what what is to come planned accordingly and benefitted...

It was beyond predictable that an oligarchy of militarists, grifters and black market capitalists and sundry opportunists would fill the vacuum.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2024, 08:20:06 AM »
Also I am not sure how or why the USSR collapsed. David stockman said the reason that they could not keep up with US military spending was BS. I heard there was a USSR wide referendum and most wanted to keep it together but the leaders ignored them and dissolved the USSR. Many think the leaders sold them out. Lots of looting went on by insiders and outsiders.

The joke is that everything they were told about communism was a lie but everything they were told about capitalism was true.

I think the baltics got a head start on leaving.

It was a broad-based uniform economic collapse...the military budget was just part of it...and I studied Gorbachev in college, he too saw what was coming but thought he could tweak communism into a hybrid socialist-led market oriented creature, his Perestroika et al...little freedoms here, some limited capitalism there...but all it did was fuel the black market freedom into helping create the coming oligarchy of opportunists from shady to outright sketchy as Hell...

The Baltics, Poland (Gdansk, remember that?)...the WWII satellites always had more interests in breaking Soviet chains.
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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #58 on: February 09, 2024, 02:44:20 PM »
Interesting. 16 mn long. How soviet sailors (commercial) made lots of money. In short, get paid in special rubles usable on western goods stores. High exchange rate. Take a limited number of soviet goods to western ports then trade them for western goods then return them to USSR.

I recall some diplomat saying they had long shopping lists from higher ups when they visited USA. Some USSR spy for US had US govt do his shopping while he talked to US govt giving them USSR secrets.

https://youtu.be/Vijhr5Cf5AE
 A Soviet Sailor. One of the Most Lucrative Jobs in the USSR - Plowing the Seas as a Seaman
USHANKA SHOW
99.7K subscribers

     
13,600 views  Feb 4, 2024
Best-paid jobs in the Soviet Union. Good things about the Soviet Union. Working as a Soviet Seaman. Soviet sailors.
0:00 Intro
0:21 Working as a sailor was one of the most profitable professions in the Soviet Union, with high earning potential.
3:12 The high income of Soviet sailors compared to professionals in America due to affordable housing and trade school education.
7:04 Soviet sailors received equal base salaries but earned extra foreign currency for international routes.
10:34 Soviet sailors found lucrative opportunities by bringing and selling goods in foreign countries, preferring slow ships for extended trips to maximize profits.
13:48 Lucrative opportunities for sailors in the USSR included smuggling goods, such as vodka and electronics, to make significant profits.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2024, 04:44:09 PM »
I used to send all sorts of stuff to a family in Ukraine a long time ago before I lost touch with them...late 80's...loved it, stuff they could not get anywhere there...
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