Author Topic: Former USSR  (Read 1729 times)

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Online patentlymn

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2024, 03:25:03 PM »
https://www.amazon.com/Life-Terror-Stalins-Russia-1934-1941/dp/0300074425

Life and Terror in Stalin's Russia, 1934-1941 Paperback – November 10, 1998
by Robert W. Thurston

I am slogging my way through this book. I would not recommend unless there is real interest in this book written after records became available.
If I could summarize so far ....
Everything bad that I thought happened did happen but the numbers were lower.
This era, maybe 1931 then peaking in 1937 or 38, was not a systematic attempt to control people by keeping them in terror. In the current chapter it seems like the Salem witch trials. People went crazy.
People were mostly not in terror, and fewer were than should have been.
If a person was in prison they believed the system had made a mistake in their case but everyone else there was guilty.

The words "erratic" and "inconsistent" come up often.
There were good parts inconsistent with systematic terror. Appeals worked. People were freed early.
There were plots uncovered, real and imagined.
People higher up and party members were at higher risk. People turned down promotions near the end to reduce risk. Also self demoted.

People who made mistakes were accused of sabotage  and called "wreckers." Some times found innocent.
USSR had a fetish for "workers" so their managers were at greater risk.

Workers felt free to complain about managers and even the party. There were lots of rules and laws and managers and workers ignored them or conspired to work around them to meet goals.

There was 1 NKVD officer per every 500 to 1000 population and they did other jobs like surveying  and maybe RR.

The book gives too many examples and often for famous people in the country. On one hand (insert bad thing that shows systematic terror) on the other hand (insert good thing example inconsistent with that).

Joke:
Late at night came a knock at the door.
"Who is there?"
"NKVD, open up!"
"You have the wrong apartment. The party members live upstairs."


from the link at amazon
Quote
Terror, in the sense of mass, unjust arrests, characterized the USSR during the late 1930s. But, argues Robert Thurston in this controversial book, Stalin did not intend to terrorize the country and did not need to rule by fear. Memoirs and interviews with Soviet people indicate that many more believed in Stalin's quest to eliminate internal enemies than were frightened by it.

Drawing on recently opened Soviet archives and other sources, Thurston shows that between 1934 and 1936 police and court practice relaxed significantly. Then a series of events, together with the tense international situation and memories of real enemy activity during the savage Russian Civil War, combined to push leaders and people into a hysterical hunt for perceived "wreckers." After late 1938, however, the police and courts became dramatically milder.
...
« Last Edit: February 23, 2024, 03:32:06 PM by patentlymn »
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Offline Libertas

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2024, 03:43:34 PM »
Ahh, the good 'ol days...

/
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Online patentlymn

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2024, 03:52:42 PM »

In watching mostly amateur videos from former USSR I realized that most of my impressions of USSR are from the civil war then 1930s and Gulags. What if foreigners impressions if US ended with the great depression? Germany only from 1930s to 1940s?

YT The Ushanka Show is by a guy who was born in 1971 in Ukraine and grew up in Kiev, moved to US MI later on. He describes every day stuff. Not a USSR fan boy.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2024, 04:08:21 PM »
Well, they all have socialist exploitation in common,,,
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Online patentlymn

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2024, 04:59:24 PM »

Old soviet joke
Q. What is the difference between capitalism and communism?
A. Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it is the other way around.

Also from the book. Many people at the bottom viewed the terror as party members at the top slitting each other's throats which was fine with them.
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Online patentlymn

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #65 on: February 29, 2024, 03:03:51 PM »
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Offline Libertas

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #66 on: March 01, 2024, 08:50:53 AM »
A little too soft and apologetic IMO...Zampolit are real, people disappeared, people were tortured, people were shot, people went to gulag...nowhere a discussion on the undeniable Russian psyche predisposed to obedience to strong rulers and how it was expertly exploited by leading communists...and nowhere a moral judgement on what number is deemed "acceptable" to commit crimes against?

We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Online patentlymn

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #67 on: March 01, 2024, 03:41:32 PM »

A little too soft and apologetic IMO...Zampolit are real, people disappeared, people were tortured, people were shot, people went to gulag...nowhere a discussion on the undeniable Russian psyche predisposed to obedience to strong rulers and how it was expertly exploited by leading communists...and nowhere a moral judgement on what number is deemed "acceptable" to commit crimes against?

All the bad stuff did happen and the book did not deny this but quantified it based on records opened up after 1991.

The book addressed a few questions.
1. Was the terror intentional with the purpose being to control people through terror?
2. Did people live in terror? Was everyone in terror or mostly certain groups? 

#1. It was too erratic and too many counter examples to be intentional in that way.Stalin was acting to uncover plots, real and imagined.
#2. The higher ups and party members were at much greater risk. Workers were at much less risk. Workers viewed this as palace intrigue with the top commies cutting each other's throats which suited them just fine.

Elsewhere I learned that Solzhenitsyn was kinda a fraud. His wife said he just made things up. After records opened he was asked if he wanted to revise his books. He said no bc they were fiction and pointed to the subtitle.

Here is a review.
Everything bad that I thought happened did happen (show trials, gulags, executions) but the numbers were lower. Also, there were lots of counter examples of good things.

This era, maybe 1931 then peaking in 1937 or 38, was not a systematic attempt to control people by keeping them in terror. In a later chapter it seemed more like the Salem witch trials. People went crazy.

People were mostly not in terror, and fewer were than should have been.
If a person was in prison they believed the system had made a mistake in their case but everyone else there was guilty. So they did not live in fear because the imprisoned, other than themself, were guilty they thought. Workers believed higher party members were cutting each others throats in palace intrigue which was fine with them.

The words "erratic" and "inconsistent" come up often.
There were good parts inconsistent with systematic terror. Appeals sometimes worked and the accusers were convicted. People were freed early.
There were plots uncovered, real and imagined.
People higher up and party members were at higher risk. People turned down promotions near the end to reduce risk. Also self demoted.

Workers often had more input than in the US and were mostly not afraid to complain to management and even writing complaints to the party which were acted on. There were limits e.g. you could not complain about socialism or Stalin.

People who caused production harm (made mistakes? or sabotage?) were accused of sabotage and called "wreckers." Some times found innocent.
USSR had a fetish for "workers" so their managers were at greater risk. Managers could be convicted of wrecking for failing to listen to or implement workers' suggestions to increase production.

Workers felt free to complain about managers and even the party. There were lots of rules and laws and managers and workers ignored them or conspired together to work around them to meet goals.

There was 1 NKVD officer per every 500 to 1000 population and they did other jobs like surveying and maybe RR.

The book gives too many examples and often for famous people in the country. On one hand (insert bad thing that shows systematic terror) on the other hand (insert good thing example inconsistent with that).

Joke:
Late at night came a knock at the door.
"Who is there?"
"NKVD, open up!"
"You have the wrong apartment. The communist party members live upstairs."
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Online patentlymn

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #68 on: March 01, 2024, 03:58:02 PM »

If workers failed to meet their quota or had a higher defect rate they might be paid less. If it was believed intentional then they might be found guilty of being a "wrecker."

There was the so called stakhanovite movement. Named after a coal miner who set a new record in coal mined in one shift. Some workers were into this. Some were not because it might raise the quota.  The party did not like it at first because it was not their idea. Same for some managers.  BTW I have seen this in US plants where one shift tries to out do another shift.

So some managers fought this. They would not listen to suggestions from workers to decrease defect rates or increase production. Then the workers would be punished for bad work and even be accused of wrecking. The workers might write letters to party officials complaining of this. The party might investigate and find this true and punish the manager and even convict him of being a wrecker. Seeing this, many avoided being promoted to manager.
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Online patentlymn

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #69 on: March 01, 2024, 04:07:11 PM »
« Last Edit: March 01, 2024, 04:23:44 PM by patentlymn »
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Offline Libertas

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2024, 08:04:26 AM »

A little too soft and apologetic IMO...Zampolit are real, people disappeared, people were tortured, people were shot, people went to gulag...nowhere a discussion on the undeniable Russian psyche predisposed to obedience to strong rulers and how it was expertly exploited by leading communists...and nowhere a moral judgement on what number is deemed "acceptable" to commit crimes against?

All the bad stuff did happen and the book did not deny this but quantified it based on records opened up after 1991.

The book addressed a few questions.
1. Was the terror intentional with the purpose being to control people through terror?
2. Did people live in terror? Was everyone in terror or mostly certain groups? 

#1. It was too erratic and too many counter examples to be intentional in that way.Stalin was acting to uncover plots, real and imagined.
#2. The higher ups and party members were at much greater risk. Workers were at much less risk. Workers viewed this as palace intrigue with the top commies cutting each other's throats which suited them just fine.

Elsewhere I learned that Solzhenitsyn was kinda a fraud. His wife said he just made things up. After records opened he was asked if he wanted to revise his books. He said no bc they were fiction and pointed to the subtitle.

Here is a review.
Everything bad that I thought happened did happen (show trials, gulags, executions) but the numbers were lower. Also, there were lots of counter examples of good things.

This era, maybe 1931 then peaking in 1937 or 38, was not a systematic attempt to control people by keeping them in terror. In a later chapter it seemed more like the Salem witch trials. People went crazy.

People were mostly not in terror, and fewer were than should have been.
If a person was in prison they believed the system had made a mistake in their case but everyone else there was guilty. So they did not live in fear because the imprisoned, other than themself, were guilty they thought. Workers believed higher party members were cutting each others throats in palace intrigue which was fine with them.

The words "erratic" and "inconsistent" come up often.
There were good parts inconsistent with systematic terror. Appeals sometimes worked and the accusers were convicted. People were freed early.
There were plots uncovered, real and imagined.
People higher up and party members were at higher risk. People turned down promotions near the end to reduce risk. Also self demoted.

Workers often had more input than in the US and were mostly not afraid to complain to management and even writing complaints to the party which were acted on. There were limits e.g. you could not complain about socialism or Stalin.

People who caused production harm (made mistakes? or sabotage?) were accused of sabotage and called "wreckers." Some times found innocent.
USSR had a fetish for "workers" so their managers were at greater risk. Managers could be convicted of wrecking for failing to listen to or implement workers' suggestions to increase production.

Workers felt free to complain about managers and even the party. There were lots of rules and laws and managers and workers ignored them or conspired together to work around them to meet goals.

There was 1 NKVD officer per every 500 to 1000 population and they did other jobs like surveying and maybe RR.

The book gives too many examples and often for famous people in the country. On one hand (insert bad thing that shows systematic terror) on the other hand (insert good thing example inconsistent with that).

Joke:
Late at night came a knock at the door.
"Who is there?"
"NKVD, open up!"
"You have the wrong apartment. The communist party members live upstairs."

The zampolit were everywhere...
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Online patentlymn

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2024, 07:25:26 PM »


I found this video on Stalin as to why many Russians like him. It leaves out the bad stuff.
https://t.me/putingers_cat/9209

From that book I just read the workers were mostly left alone and they had some sense of ownership compared to the peasants they were before 1917. Workers did not care if the higher party members cut each others throats.
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Offline Libertas

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2024, 08:40:11 AM »
Russians have a genetic fatalism...I think that is all that is...insert same parameters into a Western society and there would be more of chilling impact, and I am not saying there wasn't a chilling impact...it's just that Russians being fatalistic dampens reactions...
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Online patentlymn

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2024, 11:40:07 AM »
I heard that Russians are gloomy and pessimistic yet believe they will middle through some how.
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Online patentlymn

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #74 on: March 14, 2024, 03:45:47 PM »

I added another book to my list about the so called transition in USSR.
Secondhand Time
The Last of the Soviets
by Aleksievich, Svetlana
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Online patentlymn

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Re: Former USSR
« Reply #75 on: April 04, 2024, 03:24:50 PM »

Finished a book I  Realize Bulgaria was not in USSR.

Muslim lives in eastern Europe. by Kristin Ghodsee
This book is very detained and complicated. Centered on Madan in the Rhodope Mountains in Bulgaria where the author lived on and off. The Pomaks are an indigenous Bulgarian speaking Muslim people. It is said they are neither Slavs nor Turks but perhaps Arabs. There were religious conversions both voluntary and forced going way back. Most Muslims in the area are Slavs, Turks, or Roma. One woman Silvi followed has a father who is a Hodzha,  Muslim preacher who sells  Muskis, amulets.

The Muslims are said to be traditional, following a local form of Islam and follow local traditional dress. There has been an influx of external money from  “orthodox” Islam e.g. Saudi money. This lead to building fancy orthodox Mosques with foreign trained Imams. This caused splits from local Christians and local traditional Muslims. The loud calls to prayer drove off some tourists.

 Some women started dressing in the Arab style or European versions of the Arab style. This is a flowing style leaving only the hands and face exposed.  The traditional Muslims often wore head scarves but often with mini skirts when younger.

Under socialism religion was repressed and there were forced name changes from Muslim names to more Slavic names. Silvi had had a Muslim name but it was changed to sound Slavic which was OK with her because she sold Avon and people would buy more from a Silvi than a Muslim name. Muslims were considered rural and tobacco growing.

The mines closed after socialism and things went to hell.
...
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown