Author Topic: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday  (Read 6149 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline radioman

  • A Regular
  • ***
  • Posts: 622
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2011, 11:52:10 PM »
Sorry, Islam is not a religion. Just because they claim it is doesn't make it a religion. They openly admit and push for 'their' law to over ride local laws, in this case, our constitution. No can do. This is something that we can't cave on.

Religions are about worship - it is not about replacing local laws with their own sharia laws. They give up their right to freedom of religion when they try to subjugate citizens to their set of laws.

Hey, if all they wanted to do was have a place to actually worship, I would support them. But I'm not a moron.

I'm not a moron either. But I do see the reality here in that islam is recognized as a religion. I may not like it but it is reality and until that reality changes (and sadly, as I noted above, I think it will be very bloody when it happens) we are stuck with this particular paradigm.

Maybe the reality is that it will quit being recognized as a religion when people start calling what it is, and quit being subordinated by this political correctness bull crap.

I caught a lot of heat for saying the Black Liberation Theology is not a true Christian theology, but I stand by my call. (not on this forum)

Cain just gained a lot of points as far as I'm concerned.

TGIF - "Thank God I'm Forgiven"

Offline trapeze

  • Administrator
  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6367
  • Hippies smell bad. Go away, hippie.
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2011, 12:13:40 AM »
And yet you have a problem with the guy who's willing to unstick the paradigm because he sayshe's willing to unstick the paradigm?   ::whatgives::

A) It's a total political loser. Try handing the media a bigger stick with which to beat you about the head with. A bigger stick doesn't exist.

B) It's not the first time. If he was capable of learning from past mistakes in this area he wouldn't still be doing it. Therefore, expect more stuff like this in the future. Palin got caught once and learned quickly. Cain isn't Palin.

C) I understand all of the arguments about islam not being a religion. Problem is that this is a minority position that is not recognized legally, politically or culturally. Not yet. That day will probably come but it isn't here now. So, for the time being, it is anti-Constitutional to discriminate against islam and/or muslims. Don't believe me? Try it in your workplace and see how far you get. Try passing a local statute that bans muslims or mosques. Or maybe one that bans only the bad muslims and bad mosques.

Hey, there are plenty of religions that I don't care for. I have a particular dislike of islam for all of the above mentioned items but until it is unrecognized as a religion it gets Constitutional protection (in America for Americans) just like any other religion. Those are the rules whether you or I like it or not.

Seriously, pass a law that successfully outlaws islam as a religion and I'm right there with you.
In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.

Offline trapeze

  • Administrator
  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6367
  • Hippies smell bad. Go away, hippie.
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2011, 12:17:46 AM »

I caught a lot of heat for saying the Black Liberation Theology is not a true Christian theology, but I stand by my call. (not on this forum)


Yeah, well try telling Mormons that Mormonism isn't a true Christian religion and you will get hammered, too. Religions are funny that way.
In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.

Offline Glock32

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 8747
  • Get some!
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2011, 12:20:58 AM »
I agree this was a dumb maneuver from an electoral standpoint, but I am all in favor of the sentiment. And I say that advisedly, as someone who believes the 1st Amendment's protection of religious freedom is one of our core principles. I hold both those positions for the reasons already given here, that Islam is so much more than a religion, you could liken it to a support network providing aid, comfort, shelter, and materiel to the enemies of this country (the fact that our government refuses to acknowledge them as enemies is irrelevant, for they have openly declared us to be their enemies and acted upon it). If there was a revival of, say, the ancient Aztec religion and its modern practitioners insisted that human sacrifice is a vital part of their worship, very few people would have any qualms about quashing their status as a recognized and protected religion. I see Islam in the same light.

Honestly, I believe when the Framers drafted the Constitution they assumed the citizenry would remain almost exclusively of European extraction with all the attendant cultural trappings. The history that compelled them to include religious freedom in the 1st Amendment was the history of sectarian warfare in Europe and low-level versions of it in the Colonies. I doubt they figured much on imported non-Western belief systems taking cynical advantage of 18th century Western ideas of religious freedom as a subterfuge or Trojan Horse. And that is exactly what Islam is: a Trojan Horse targeting an entire civilization rather than merely one Greek city-state in Asia Minor.

But yes, I agree it was an unforced error on Cain's part. There's no need to go off on those tangents yet.
"The Fourth Estate is less honorable than the First Profession."

- Yours Truly

Offline trapeze

  • Administrator
  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6367
  • Hippies smell bad. Go away, hippie.
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2011, 12:32:23 AM »
I also agree with the sentiment. Yet islam is a defacto religion whether you like it or not. And having presidents (or any other governmental authority) picking winners and losers in who or what gets religious Constitutional protection is not a good precedent. That way lies trouble.

We have an established and recognized way of dealing with things of this nature, the amendment process. And that is the only serious and legal way that anyone is ever going to de-legitimize islam as a religion. Sorry, but that's reality.
In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.

Online Pandora

  • Administrator
  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 19529
  • I iz also makin a list. U on it pal.
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2011, 12:39:16 AM »
Quote
A) It's a total political loser. Try handing the media a bigger stick with which to beat you about the head with. A bigger stick doesn't exist.

Probably so, but that's not a problem with Cain as far as I'm concerned.  You stated you've thrown in the towel as far as he's concerned on account of this stand, and that's the sticking point for me.

Quote
Sorry, but that's reality.

Sorry, but no.  This government's already sold out to islam so, neither I nor a large group of people -- currently getting larger -- give a good gawdamn what the legal or "constitutional" position is on allowing our conquest by an alien ideology using our principles against us.

I'm not having it.  Neither are the people who are fighting to keep their neighborhoods free of this blight, neither is Cain.  One can either stand with us, on principle, or not.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 12:43:36 AM by Pandora »
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline trapeze

  • Administrator
  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6367
  • Hippies smell bad. Go away, hippie.
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2011, 12:39:47 AM »
I will tell you what, though (and I mean this in all sincerity)...

I have a lot of respect for Mark Levin's interpretation of the Constitution and most of his political and ideological positions. If he disagrees with me then I will apologize to everyone and admit that I totally blew it on this one.

In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.

Offline trapeze

  • Administrator
  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6367
  • Hippies smell bad. Go away, hippie.
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2011, 12:42:17 AM »
Quote
A) It's a total political loser. Try handing the media a bigger stick with which to beat you about the head with. A bigger stick doesn't exist.

Probably so, but that's not a problem with Cain as far as I'm concerned.  You stated you've thrown in the towel as far as he's concerned on account of this stand, and that's the sticking point for me.

If it was the first and only gaffe I would be more tolerant. It isn't. He isn't learning. That's not a good sign.

Hey, I hope I'm wrong about all of this. But I don't think I am.
In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.

Offline rickl

  • Established Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1493
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2011, 01:01:32 AM »
Didn't Cain say something very similar about the Second Amendment not too long ago, that states and local governments can pass any restrictions they want?

I don't disagree with him about Islam, but he seems to have some reading comprehension issues regarding the Constitution.
We are so far past and beyond the “long train of abuses and usurpations” that the Colonists and Founders experienced and which necessitated the Revolutionary War that they aren’t even visible in the rear-view mirror.
~ Ann Barnhardt

Online Pandora

  • Administrator
  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 19529
  • I iz also makin a list. U on it pal.
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2011, 01:10:56 AM »
I will tell you what, though (and I mean this in all sincerity)...

I have a lot of respect for Mark Levin's interpretation of the Constitution and most of his political and ideological positions. If he disagrees with me then I will apologize to everyone and admit that I totally blew it on this one.



As do I, trap, but I'm not a right-liberal and sometimes Levin displays some of that.  Non-discrimination is NOT my highest principle, nor is radical egalitarianism.

As far as Cain's other gaffes, I'm right with you on them and on the demonstration that he's not a quick study on how to handle the sticky=wickets.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline rickl

  • Established Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1493
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2011, 01:13:11 AM »
I've said before that I favor a Constitutional amendment declaring that Islam is not a religion but a totalitarian political philosophy, and is therefore not protected by the First Amendment.

The trouble is that such an amendment could never pass today, and after the next 9/11-scale attack it will be too late for such legal niceties.  The citizenry will take matters into their own hands.
We are so far past and beyond the “long train of abuses and usurpations” that the Colonists and Founders experienced and which necessitated the Revolutionary War that they aren’t even visible in the rear-view mirror.
~ Ann Barnhardt

Offline rickl

  • Established Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1493
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2011, 01:16:15 AM »
Honestly, I believe when the Framers drafted the Constitution they assumed the citizenry would remain almost exclusively of European extraction with all the attendant cultural trappings. The history that compelled them to include religious freedom in the 1st Amendment was the history of sectarian warfare in Europe and low-level versions of it in the Colonies. I doubt they figured much on imported non-Western belief systems taking cynical advantage of 18th century Western ideas of religious freedom as a subterfuge or Trojan Horse. And that is exactly what Islam is: a Trojan Horse targeting an entire civilization rather than merely one Greek city-state in Asia Minor.

That's exactly right.  The Founders no more imagined large numbers of Muslims in America than Martians.
We are so far past and beyond the “long train of abuses and usurpations” that the Colonists and Founders experienced and which necessitated the Revolutionary War that they aren’t even visible in the rear-view mirror.
~ Ann Barnhardt

Offline warpmine

  • Conservative Hero
  • ****
  • Posts: 3248
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2011, 05:12:04 AM »
Points in his favor, as far as I'm concerned.

"The Constitution is not a suicide pact".  That has impact because it's true.

No it's not but we aren't there yet or anywhere even close.

I guess this is one of those points where we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Words mean things and freedom of religion is freedom for all religions. If they cross the line then that's different but until they do they have the same rights as Americans as Catholics, Jews, Christians, Mormons and every other religion that you care to think of.



How do you give freedom of religion to those that staunchly refuse the freedom in their books of faith and practices anyway. To me, he made it clear which obviously you didn't hear from Wallace, the people of that community had some misgivings or issues with that particular Mosque and they are doing what they can to keep it insignificant in the long run. ::newyear::
Remember, four boxes keep us free:
The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline Sectionhand

  • Conservative Hero
  • ****
  • Posts: 2520
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2011, 05:41:48 AM »


ETA: Chris Wallace was a disrespectful ass of an interviewer.




Just like his old man !

Offline Libertas

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 64020
  • Alea iacta est! Libertatem aut mori!
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2011, 07:15:51 AM »
Honestly, I believe when the Framers drafted the Constitution they assumed the citizenry would remain almost exclusively of European extraction with all the attendant cultural trappings. The history that compelled them to include religious freedom in the 1st Amendment was the history of sectarian warfare in Europe and low-level versions of it in the Colonies. I doubt they figured much on imported non-Western belief systems taking cynical advantage of 18th century Western ideas of religious freedom as a subterfuge or Trojan Horse. And that is exactly what Islam is: a Trojan Horse targeting an entire civilization rather than merely one Greek city-state in Asia Minor.

That's exactly right.  The Founders no more imagined large numbers of Muslims in America than Martians.

Yup.  And until Isslamists in America start blowing up women and children at malls and churches, most American's will unfortunately take a pass on rendering judgement on Isslam being a death cult...and the Isslamists know this and are using our own religious protections to work the long game on us.  BY the time people realize they are slowly being converted it will be near impossible to outlaw their evil cult.  But I don't think it will get to that.  Our political-economic structure is unravelling faster, so when the fit hits the shan I'll deal with these bozos like I deal with the zombies & leftists...
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline radioman

  • A Regular
  • ***
  • Posts: 622
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2011, 07:21:36 AM »

I caught a lot of heat for saying the Black Liberation Theology is not a true Christian theology, but I stand by my call. (not on this forum)


Yeah, well try telling Mormons that Mormonism isn't a true Christian religion and you will get hammered, too. Religions are funny that way.


I would never equate Mormons with Black Lilberation Theology. Just saying.

BTW, I don't see Cain taking any real heat today in the news for his comments. At least yet.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 07:29:48 AM by radioman »
TGIF - "Thank God I'm Forgiven"

Offline IronDioPriest

  • Administrator
  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 10829
  • I refuse to accept my civil servants as my rulers
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2011, 07:32:09 AM »
...Neighborhoods afflicted with mosques soon find out they've been infiltrated by the enemy; they subvert the local councils/commissioners, drive residents out and then assume control through sheer numbers.  It's happening all over the country and it has to stop.


I agree with this 100%. But I also believe that my personal view is regrettably in opposition to the constitution.

You know how we hate it when Leftists say something like, "The founding fathers never could have foreseen_________..." Well, they wrote the 1st Amendment as it is, and because it is as it is, our hands are constitutionally tied in regards to Islam and its place in our society.

If we're going to fight the scourge of Islam as Pandora articulates, we are going to have to be awfully creative in our interpretation of the 1st Amendment, or we're going to have to find other ways locally (zoning, permitting, tax status, etc) to stop the infiltration and destruction of our towns and cities.

Herman Cain is entitled to his beliefs. And Lord knows I wish we lived in a nation where it was as he says. But he blew it big-time for someone who's seeking the presidency.

We spend an awful lot of time and energy in reverence to the constitution, and in enumerating all the ways in which our government is in violation of it. Let's not pretend for the sake of convenience that what Herman Cain said is constitutional. Agree with the sentiment. Yes. But pretend that such a statement does not ruin his electoral viability? That is wishful thinking, in my estimation.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline radioman

  • A Regular
  • ***
  • Posts: 622
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2011, 07:47:35 AM »
Islam is not a religion and now is a good time to start driving that point home. Islam is using our constitution for protection just like al quida uses girls and children for human shields. The fight is not about what our constitution means, but about what Islam really is, as opposed to what they claim it is.

Until we meet this head on and squash it, they will effectively use the constitution to squash us, aided by those that miss the point.

EDIT:

Let me point out one more thing:

Anti-Christians threaten our churches all the time with the power to take away our tax status if we just voice political opinions in our sermons,
whereas,
Islams don't just preach things in their sermons, no, they go out and actually kill people for their cause, and use their sermons to raise up a generation of suicide bombers.

So, since it has become acceptable in our society to hammer Christian churches with the threat of  losing its no-tax status for just making mere political statements, then to be fair and balanced, it should be ok for neighborhoods to disallow the building of mosques and keep the number of suicide bombers down to a bare minimum.



« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 07:55:59 AM by radioman »
TGIF - "Thank God I'm Forgiven"

Online ToddF

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5846
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2011, 09:08:05 AM »
A government that can ban a Masque, can ban a Christian church, also, and don't think the Marxist garbage that makes up today's left wouldn't do it, if they could.  Just ask a Chinese Christian that's gotten out.

Don't hold back in a politically correct way what you feel about the death cult devoted to worshipping a child molester, but you just can't ban the house of worship.

Offline trapeze

  • Administrator
  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6367
  • Hippies smell bad. Go away, hippie.
Re: Cain Self Destructs On Fox News Sunday
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2011, 10:40:16 AM »
Islam is not a religion and now is a good time to start driving that point home. Islam is using our constitution for protection just like al quida uses girls and children for human shields. The fight is not about what our constitution means, but about what Islam really is, as opposed to what they claim it is.

Until we meet this head on and squash it, they will effectively use the constitution to squash us, aided by those that miss the point.

EDIT:

Let me point out one more thing:

Anti-Christians threaten our churches all the time with the power to take away our tax status if we just voice political opinions in our sermons,
whereas,
Islams don't just preach things in their sermons, no, they go out and actually kill people for their cause, and use their sermons to raise up a generation of suicide bombers.

So, since it has become acceptable in our society to hammer Christian churches with the threat of  losing its no-tax status for just making mere political statements, then to be fair and balanced, it should be ok for neighborhoods to disallow the building of mosques and keep the number of suicide bombers down to a bare minimum.





As long as islam is recognized as a religion by the IRS (and it is) then it will be pretty tough to successfully argue otherwise.

Yes, individual churches routinely lose their tax exempt status for crossing the line and yes, it is usually (non-black) Christian churches that fall victim to these rulings. But I have yet to see an instance where an entire religion loses its tax exempt status let alone its recognition by the state as a religion.

I believe that the threshold for state recognition of a belief system (or whatever you want to call it) as a religion is purposefully set rather low so that the state is rightfully not in the business of picking winners or losers. There are, of course, obvious exceptions to that such as the person who decides to declare himself the pope of his own made up church in order to dodge income taxes.

So far the vast majority of murderous/terrorist elements of islam have largely left the American homeland alone. That is primarily due to the diligence of the FBI, CIA, NSA and other elements put into place by GWB following the September 11, 2001 attacks. It's also due to the stupidity and lack of creative thinking in the terrorist mind. And luck. Or Providence.

You said, "Islams don't just preach things in their sermons, no, they go out and actually kill people for their cause, and use their sermons to raise up a generation of suicide bombers," and that is true but it isn't true here in America. Not yet. This would be the religious equivalent of yelling fire in a crowded room for the purpose of causing a panic. It would cross the line of what is protected speech and protected religious activity (such as the above mentioned human sacrifice example). But unless it was happening in the majority of mosques across the country there is little chance, even then, that the entire islamic religion/belief system/political ideology could be successfully indicted.

There will be strong resistance toward any such move by a majority of Americans barring a major and/or sustained terrorist attack on the country. That's just the way we are. The internment of the Japanese during WWII was, in my opinion, entirely justified based on the destruction of Pearl Harbor and the Pacific fleet. We will, I am afraid, have to suffer some other such attack before islam can be successfully stripped of its religious status.

Unfortunately this is one of the problems of living in a free society governed by a Constitutional rule book.
In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.