Topics > TEOTWAWKI
A discussion of priorities: prepping/generators/ham radio
Pandora:
Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by Pandora on Apr 15, 2010, 1:23pm
Apr 15, 2010, 12:50pm, johnflorida wrote:
Apr 15, 2010, 10:57am, Pandora wrote:
What kind of fuel in 100 plus gals., JF?
Gas for generators. But we only have to run one at a time for refrigerrationa nd cook tops when needed and we can make hot water for showers. Don't forget one of the guys has 500 gals. of propane, Between us we can store over 300 gals. of gas.
Okay, then; gasoline. What's it stored in at that quantity and, since gas can't be stored for too long, what's being done to prevent its degradation?
Propane - not worried about, much. Gasoline storage I'm worried about.
~~~~~~~~
Good on ya, Soup. Well, on everybody that's given this thought and preparation. I must say, though, everytime I begin feeling the slightest bit ... um... comfortable about our own preps, I read something like Soup's account and I get anxious all over again.
Like CO wrote: work, work, work.Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by johnflorida on Apr 15, 2010, 1:39pm
Apr 15, 2010, 1:23pm, Pandora wrote:
Apr 15, 2010, 12:50pm, johnflorida wrote:
Gas for generators. But we only have to run one at a time for refrigeration nd cook tops when needed and we can make hot water for showers. Don't forget one of the guys has 500 gals. of propane, Between us we can store over 300 gals. of gas.
Okay, then; gasoline. What's it stored in at that quantity and, since gas can't be stored for too long, what's being done to prevent its degradation?
Propane - not worried about, much. Gasoline storage I'm worried about.
~~~~~~~~
Good on ya, Soup. Well, on everybody that's given this thought and preparation. I must say, though, every time I begin feeling the slightest bit ... um... comfortable about our own preps, I read something like Soup's account and I get anxious all over again.
Like CO wrote: work, work, work.
My truck holds 26 gals.My wifes car holds 16I have 5 five gal cans and I have a 35 gal metal barrel, My lawn tractor holds 3 and the Generator holds almost 5 for a total of 108 gals. I use fuel conditioner to make it last up to a year.It's no big deal.
Safety wise I'm not happy either but I use approved containers except for the Barrel.(because I can't find an approved one but it's new and clean. And I keep a couple of cases of Mobil one oil for the generator since it doesn't go bad and I don't know how long I would need it for.
Don't forget we picked up a lot of experience when we had 3 hurricanes in 14 months. Those were like dry runs for a much longer problem. We ended up feeding half the street for almost a week till the stores startd to restock and get generators of their own in. Now the stores all have big diesel Generators built in.
Gas stations had fuel but no power to get at it for almost a week. I burned threw 5 gals a day just for the generator and that was running it only when I needed to.
I had to keep everything frozen and had to cook no A/C but that will be fixed when I get a couple of window units just for the bed rooms.
Pandora:
Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by libertasinfinitio on Apr 15, 2010, 1:40pm
Yup. Vigilance in all things. Prepare for the worst as best you can, hope for the best.
Some people can deal with this, some only in an abstract conversation, I know some who simply cannot contemplate even mild breakdown scenarios and have resolved to be an ostrich.
This kinda stuff isn't particularly fun to talk about, but as a family we are doing it because it is necessary.
It just seems like it is more needed now that it has ever been in a long time in our nation and I think that is the reason for the sense of anxiousness...it's justified.
The point on avenues of escape is important. Luckily for me I have been around a while and I know a lot of roads, some even not paved! And commuting as I have over longer distances on average than my urban counterparts, I am fond of exercising my freedom of movement to get around jams and as such stay up on different routes and what those neighborhoods look like.Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by charlesoakwood on Apr 15, 2010, 1:57pm
Auto-Parts-Shop has 12vDC universal fuel pump. Pump -10?gal per minute, rig w/cigarette lighter adapter and neoprene fuel line. Enables transfer of fuel.
If your house uses propane, get a propane genset, all fuel problems will be solved. Storage and capacity are no longer problems.
Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by alphabetsoup on Apr 15, 2010, 2:17pm
Apr 15, 2010, 1:57pm, charlesoakwood wrote:
Auto-Parts-Shop has 12vDC universal fuel pump. Pump -10?gal per minute, rig w/cigarette lighter adapter and neoprene fuel line. Enables transfer of fuel.
If your house uses propane, get a propane genset, all fuel problems will be solved. Storage and capacity are no longer problems.
Good idea. I check one out but didn't think it stout enough to last so I prowled the industrial auctions until I was able to score a hand-crank transfer pump.
My plan is to leave the gasoline where it belongs - at the gas station. When the power is out and no one is able to exhaust the supply it will be available for extraction - by me.
And the propane idea is good as well. I purposely purchased in a neighborhood on the natural gas grid. My heat, hot water, and cooking is gas. But even the grid can be interrupted so I leased a 500gal tank like John is talking about. Its main intention is for the generator but can be pressed into service for other needs.
The one remaining essential is a well. I've been trying to work the angles to put in a well. This is easier said than done because my property borders a protected wetland and they don't want to issue a permit.
By hook or by crook... Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by Pandora on Apr 15, 2010, 2:18pm
>>> If your house uses propane, get a propane genset, all fuel problems will be solved. Storage and capacity are no longer problems. <<<
Got that - whole-house generator and about 1700 gals. of propane, and even nursing it, it's only going to last so long. We've several smaller tanks-full for the bbq and a "tree" so more than one item can work off one tank if needs -be.
The trucks and the chainsaw need gasoline, so working on some further storage needs doing.Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by charlesoakwood on Apr 15, 2010, 2:52pm
Farmer Brown used this set up for a hundred years:
[image]
Military used it, service cos used it, and any body else that needed higher capacity. Today, it's probably verwy dangerous.
This image shows a bung hole in the side also.
Never seen a 55 gal drum with bung holes in the side and the top.
The lid or top should have two bung holes, a large one for the pump and a small one for the vent.
You don't need a new one if it was used for oil, just rinse it out and you are good to go.
Tractor Supply or a rural Ace will probably have the pump and good info including where to get good drums.
Pandora:
Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by alphabetsoup on Apr 15, 2010, 3:44pm
That's it Charles! That's what I bought.
I used a pipe threader on the end of the suction tube so that I could screw on extensions for deeper tanks. It works like a champ.Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by Pandora on Apr 15, 2010, 4:08pm
Great! Thanks to you both. What else ya got up your sleeves?
Anybody else here besides me know how to pressure can?Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by johnflorida on Apr 15, 2010, 4:35pm
Watch those propane Generators the fuel use is high and the power output is less than on gas. If you look you can still buy dual and tri fuel Generators(Natural gas Propane and gasoline)
I find a great source for a lot of this stuff at NORTHERN TOOL.
http://www.northerntool.com/
They have pumps and generators and so on so you have time to look then over and study what you need.
In doing research for myself I learned a lot so if you have any questions just let me know. You only need so much don't go nuts spending money.
But you also can buy them used I see generators on craigs list down here all the time. They are from the hurricanes and people are getting rid of them. Bad for them good for you. just be carefull.Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by Pandora on Apr 15, 2010, 4:57pm
We don't have natural gas service here, so propane is it. We did the research and came up with the best option for us. YMMV, of course.
It's hooked up to the house service, with a cut-off, so it powers itself on/off in response to the grid power.Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by charlesoakwood on Apr 15, 2010, 5:49pm
NorthernTools is a good source for products and their online catalogue is a good source of info about the product, their clerks are not. Also, read your warranty and be knowledgeable about what you are buying, they can be difficult with returns.Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by johnflorida on Apr 15, 2010, 5:52pm
Apr 15, 2010, 4:57pm, Pandora wrote:
We don't have natural gas service here, so propane is it. We did the research and came up with the best option for us. YMMV, of course.
It's hooked up to the house service, with a cut-off, so it powers itself on/off in response to the grid power.
That's a good short term thing but to make the fuel last you have to only run it then you want to.
I planed it out during the hurricane outages to only run it for 5 to 6 hours a day. That was enough time to keep the fridge cold and make hot water and coffee in the morning. Once we made coffee we shut it down so we could watch T.V. and charge the fridge for the night,
I had done a whole lot of cooking before the storm and froze it so all we had to do was defrost heat and eat. I had 2 big trays of baked Ziti that were frozen and then cut to portions for a meal and wrapped and bagged for the freezer not to mention all the meat I had bought. I love my steaks.
I never having been through one treated it like the end of the world was coming. And for the first few days it was a real pain in the ass.Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by charlesoakwood on Apr 15, 2010, 5:54pm
--->"Anybody else here besides me know how to pressure can?"<---
Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by Pandora on Apr 15, 2010, 6:07pm
>>> That's a good short term thing but to make the fuel last you have to only run it then you want to. <<<
Did something I wrote make you believe I didn't know that already? ;D
This is not a portable generator.
Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by Pandora on Apr 15, 2010, 6:09pm
Apr 15, 2010, 5:54pm, charlesoakwood wrote:
--->"Anybody else here besides me know how to pressure can?"<---
What? No capisce?
How about "use a pressure canner"?
Pandora:
Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by Pandora on Apr 15, 2010, 7:21pm
Apr 15, 2010, 6:38pm, johnflorida wrote:
Apr 15, 2010, 6:07pm, Pandora wrote:
>>> That's a good short term thing but to make the fuel last you have to only run it then you want to. <<<
Did something I wrote make you believe I didn't know that already? ;D
This is not a portable generator.
Some times I like to hear myself talk!But if you're out and the power goes out it kicks on and runs till you get back, not always a good thing.
How big is it?
It is a good thing in normal times (such as they are today) provided we aren't gone too long, which we usually aren't; freezer, etc.
After 1996's Hurricane Fran, when we were out of power for four days, and whatever-year-it-was after that when we were out of power for two days (Christmas Eve and Christmas) due to an ice-storm, and the periodic outages during perfectly windless, sunny days (I kid you not), Gunsmith got sick of having to hook up to the two portables (5K watts each) the well-pump, the water heater, the house heat and run an extension cord in through the dryer vent so I could keep the refrigerator/freezer cold and some of the lights on, not to mention the stove (which was all electric until we swapped it out for a dual-fuel), or the microwave.
So we did the research, figured out what we needed to maintain a normal semblence of life and in 2004 bought the 25,000 watt-er, which has auto/manual features. I am not a high-maintence woman; forget the jewelry, bring me electricity. It self-cycles every Thursday morning at 10 am for 15 minutes and the sound is music to my ears.
Until just recently (when societal breakdown anxieties began), the joke 'round here was "sheesh, we could've gotten a big box, written "generator" on it and maybe Mother Nature would've known no different", as we haven't had a major outage since.
On the other hand, I was thinking maybe a could get protection-payments from the neighbors to help defray the cost, 'cause their power hasn't blipped out since then either.Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by nolan on Apr 15, 2010, 8:06pm
Available for adoption:
40 yo caucasian male w/ wife and 4 kids.
Military veteran w/ combat exp. and can supply own weapons, ammo, food and water. First aid, combat lifesaver, and NBC skills rusty but in good working order.
Forward thinking, like-minded, and intelligent (depends on who ya' ask, though!) and can operate heavy machinery. Other skills are varied and appliciable.
Will work for food.
CO, the gas pump above, would you think that grounding would be a worthwhile safety addition? Maybe a few feet of copper cable attached to the pump and a large spike or something? Gas and electricity are two things for which I have a healthy respect. I'm pretty safety conscious to the point that I have eye protection, gloves (injuries and infection are the enemies!) and am trying to negotiate the purchase of an M1-A1 Abrams to wrap myself in. No dice yet!
Soup, the threaded end on the pump to add lengths for deep tanks is a hell of an idea. Thanks
For the purpose of gas transfer/storage, I'm going to add conditioner, but also use cans to fill my cars and use the FIFO method for fuel, as well as food and other perishables. We have several 35lb tanks of propane on hand at all times and the cars are never less than 1/2 full. A couple years ago, we had some meat get freezer-burned and even though it was an awful meal, it was a good lesson. We've started jarring, but not much yet, and plan for more with this harvest, if it comes in strong.
My wife had it mind to scoot if the lights go out, but that would be awful considering where we are. We're outside Boston by about 45 min (by car) and there's a real sh*thole city called Brockton about 25 min away. Worcester is the other big city, then Providence. To get somewhere else, we'd have to thread the needle between all these Urban Islands full of restless natives and zombies. Back roads are easy to blockade, and the main-lines will be all parking lots. The time to leave here is last year. So, here we are in the middle of zombie-land!
I, too, have the town and surrounds factored in re: ingress/egress and choke-points and OP's. I know where to place bunkers and blockades, booby-traps and the like (I wont use the alliteritive B-word so as to avoid getting flagged by the "Elder Male Sibling"). I need lots of assistance, clearly, but I think there'll be plenty of construction equip. around when I need it.
I have lists made up of things to grab at the grocery stores (twinkies and soda are way, way down the list) and the Home Depot. Generators, fridges and freezers, chain-saws and shovels. Damn near the whole store. The U-haul place will have to provide trucking, but again, before that, it comes down to head-count.
Neighbors here look at me like I'm tapped (I am, which is probably why I'm flyin' solo) and smirk w/ their little knowing smiles. Anybody else get that? I usually like to get the last laugh, but will seriously die happy if I never get it in over those folks. The thing I say is that even though those survivalist "nuts" fears in the 70's and 80's were never realized, it doesn't mean they were wrong! We were so close several times and very few know about it. There just were no guarantees that it was going to end the way it did. But this situation, well, there's just so many differences that it doesn't compare. My Dad tried to allay my concerns once by saying "Somebody always comes along and keeps things right and cooler heads prevail" or some such nonsense. I asked him "Where's that guarantee written? And who underwrites it?" And he's no slouch when it comes to history! I know he was trying to ease my concerns, but it keeps me from broaching the subject w/ him again.
Soup, I also took CPR when my kids were born. The others in the class were there to punch the ticket for the job, mostly. There were a few who did it for the sake of being prepared, but beyond that I couldn't see myself allying w/ them. This is MA, after all!
The line about not freking out at an accident scene brings to mind my own personal pearl of wisdom, "Plan ahead, Perform now, panic later!"
Also, have you ever checked out the blog "Sipsey Street Irregulars"? He speaks about the "Three Percent". The portion of the colonist who took up arms against the Brits. It's a guesstimate, I think, but he extrapolates upon it and fits it into todays situation very well. Some of his stuff is, well, easy to skip over, but most of it is well written and well thought-out. Point being, he relayed a conversation he had w/ a friend (fictitious, I think, but well written) and one of the things he mentioned that puts people into the Three Percent mind-set category is that you don't gawk at an accident scene and wait for the "Authorities" to take care of the Citizenry. You act! You're independent and confident enough to use your own judgement.
I don't know if the number is as low as 3%, but I sure as sh*t hope that it's higher when the time comes.
JF, I'm hitting "craigs list" next. Good lead. Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by nolan on Apr 15, 2010, 8:11pm
Pan, you posted while I was writing my novel above and you reminded me of something.
When using a portable generator, make a short male-male cord and plug it into a wall outlet near the panel. Turn off the main breaker and any circuits un-used and the needed circuits will be energized. No need for multiple cords. Although you took care of it, it's something I hope somebody can use.
Pandora:
Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by charlesoakwood on Apr 15, 2010, 8:42pm
--->CO, the gas pump above, would you think that grounding would be a worthwhile safety addition?<---
The pump is manual, never seen one grounded. If lightning strikes it, it won't make any difference.
Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by johnflorida on Apr 15, 2010, 8:44pm
Apr 15, 2010, 8:11pm, nolan wrote:
Pan, you posted while I was writing my novel above and you reminded me of something.
When using a portable generator, make a short male-male cord and plug it into a wall outlet near the panel. Turn off the main breaker and any circuits un-used and the needed circuits will be energized. No need for multiple cords. Although you took care of it, it's something I hope somebody can use.
When on craigs list check surrounding states. If you're going to back feed the house I would suggest you use a dryer plug(30 amps at 220) and go through the box with the main breaker off and select what you're going to leave on.Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by charlesoakwood on Apr 15, 2010, 8:59pm
Why would you leave the main breaker off?Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by nolan on Apr 15, 2010, 9:26pm
So power won't go back into the grid. You don't want to energize the street. A portable wouldn't produce enough juice to power your stuff if it's bleeding out through the main.
RE: the grounding; it isn't lightning to worry about. Static discharge, cell phones would be my primary concern. Metal to metal contact causing a spark also, though I don't know if grounding will prevent that. That's a different ignition mechanism.
JF, would the gen hafta' be rated for the plug, vice versa, or could you affix a male plug onto the dryer plug leads?Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by johnflorida on Apr 15, 2010, 9:28pm
Apr 15, 2010, 8:59pm, charlesoakwood wrote:
Why would you leave the main breaker off?
You don't want the power leaking back into the street where somebody making repairs could get blown off a pole. In other words the power you make stays in your house.Or the power coming back on and blowing your generator up. I use a gentran panel much safer. Trade name is a transfer switch,
Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by Pandora on Apr 15, 2010, 9:52pm
>>> that baby probably burn aroung 4 gals of propane an hour. Nice though sounds like a Generac. <<<
It's rated at 4.8 gals an hour, probably a little more during extreme heat or cold, w/max load. Don't expect to be running it, if TSHTF, more than 2 hours a day anyway, enough to keep the water hot and the freezer cold and to fill up the water containers for drinking, cooking and toilet flushing, and not at max usage. The sound would be a zombie-attractant.
At that rate, with 1700 gals. at max usage, we've got roughly 2 1/3 yrs. of propane. Hopefully, we'll be able to get a fill up before then. If not, then not. I can cook very well on a cast-iron wood stove and a manual/solar well-pump will serve, as will the fireplace insert.
It's a Guardian, made by Generac.Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by nolan on Apr 15, 2010, 10:03pm
"The sound would be a zombie-attractant."
Pan, would you run it in the day, do ya' think, or at night? Sound travels at night, but during daytime you would want to be able to hear anything you may need to hear. I don't know what makes more sense, but definitely stagger the times you run it. Don't set a pattern and give somebody a window of opportunity. Don't set any patterns if you can help it. Anybody observing will use the info to their advantage if they're up to no good.
It's amazing the level of details that need to be thought out on this. I'm glad I've written it down.Re: A Discussion of Priorities
Post by Pandora on Apr 15, 2010, 10:13pm
Apr 15, 2010, 10:03pm, nolan wrote:
"The sound would be a zombie-attractant."
Pan, would you run it in the day, do ya' think, or at night? Sound travels at night, but during daytime you would want to be able to hear anything you may need to hear. I don't know what makes more sense, but definitely stagger the times you run it. Don't set a pattern and give somebody a window of opportunity. Don't set any patterns if you can help it. Anybody observing will use the info to their advantage if they're up to no good.
It's amazing the level of details that need to be thought out on this. I'm glad I've written it down.
Daytime you can pretty much see what you need to; nighttime not as much, so prolly to stagger daytime runs would be the ticket so nighttime hearing could be relied on.
There will be much to learn. Hope we don't fail the "fatal" test.
How did Rumsfeld put it: there are knowns and unknowns and the known unknowns .... then there are the unknown unknowns. The last are the ones that'll kill ya, I think.
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