Author Topic: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens  (Read 3530 times)

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Online John Florida

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2011, 09:31:57 PM »
Citizen or not he gave that up when he declared war on our military IE Fort Hood. and made an attempt at our civilians IE Christmas bomber attemp.

 Let God sort it out I'm happy he's dead citizenship not withstanding.
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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2011, 09:50:39 PM »
I'm happy he's dead too. But what crimes result in an automatic forfeiting of citizenship and life before a trial and conviction? He didn't give up his citizenship. He abused it, and used it against us. But short of being tried and convicted of treason, I don't see how he's viewed as anything other than a US citizen, and that raises constitutional questions.

I know I'm being a stickler and devil's advocate. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers. I'm just seeing some glaring problems from my point of view, and giving voice to them.

I really have come to believe that America is disintegrating to the degree that we stray from constitutional principles as our guideposts. I love the rule of law, and I loathe the rule of men. When a US citizen, no matter how vile, is going to lose his life or liberty at the hands of the federal government, I want it to happen by the rule of law.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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Offline rickl

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2011, 10:05:41 PM »
I'm happy he's dead too. But what crimes result in an automatic forfeiting of citizenship and life before a trial and conviction? He didn't give up his citizenship. He abused it, and used it against us. But short of being tried and convicted of treason, I don't see how he's viewed as anything other than a US citizen, and that raises constitutional questions.

I know I'm being a stickler and devil's advocate. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers. I'm just seeing some glaring problems from my point of view, and giving voice to them.

I really have come to believe that America is disintegrating to the degree that we stray from constitutional principles as our guideposts. I love the rule of law, and I loathe the rule of men. When a US citizen, no matter how vile, is going to lose his life or liberty at the hands of the federal government, I want it to happen by the rule of law.

I agree wholeheartedly.  Setting a precedent for a U.S. citizen to be summarily executed by the government is a very, very dangerous road to start down.

It absolutely boils my blood to hear so-called "conservatives" howling like banshees whenever anyone from either the left or right calls this policy into question (like Ron Paul, for instance).  Those people scare the hell out of me.  They are Nazis, plain and simple.  They will support the government killing anyone, in any number, just as long as it isn't themselves or their friends.

This whole thing could be solved very easily if the U.S. government would simply declare war on Islam.
We are so far past and beyond the “long train of abuses and usurpations” that the Colonists and Founders experienced and which necessitated the Revolutionary War that they aren’t even visible in the rear-view mirror.
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charlesoakwood

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2011, 11:01:13 PM »

If we'd just declare war on Islam, that wouldn't make killing him anymore moral or just.  But your point on the declaration is well taken. We as a nation (we voted them into office) have become so tepid that expecting Congress to behave as adults and ratify war is an absurdity, they will assume responsibility for nothing.  

WWII was the last war declared and since that date our leadership
have had not the will nor heart to declare war and that's where the cognitive dissonance begins.

Today we are lodged between custom (retreat), the law (not obeyed), and the reality. The clarity, that through all of this byzantium he was an enemy of the the state.  He was not just some slacker with a poster he was an affective organizer and leader; in a standard army a general at CENTCOM.  

Relieving the dissonance between Constitutional legality and a political class too weak to enforce it will not come quickly.  Since 1950 we have willfully given away our authority and responsibility to pacifists, social justice seekers, and communists.  They have tied our hands so tightly that even at this forum we find it necessary to discuss the correctness
of vaporizing one who effectively plots against us as a nation, and as
a people.

They didn't give Clyde Barrow a trial.
They ambushed him and killed him.



 

Offline rickl

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2011, 11:31:06 PM »
Excellent comment, Charles.  You make a number of very good points.  I'd just like to take issue with a couple:

Quote
If we'd just declare war on Islam, that wouldn't make killing him anymore moral or just.
Actually, it would.  If Islam was an officially declared enemy of the United States, then any American could kill any Muslim with impunity.  That's where we're going, whether we realize it or not.  The sooner we face up to it, the better off we'll be.

After my hypothetical declaration, I would give Muslims (regardless of their citizenship) a period of time to leave the country.  After that, it would be open season on any that choose to remain.

Quote
They didn't give Clyde Barrow a trial.
They ambushed him and killed him.
Barrow was a piece of sh*t just like al-Awlaki, and he deserved to die.  But any civilian lynch mob could have done the same.  That's not the rule of law.  That's the government pronouncing a death sentence and carrying it out.  As I said earlier, that's a very dangerous road to start down.  Who knows who the government will target tomorrow?  Do we really want to give them the power of life and death over anyone who attracts their attention, and who they perceive as a threat?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 11:44:34 PM by rickl »
We are so far past and beyond the “long train of abuses and usurpations” that the Colonists and Founders experienced and which necessitated the Revolutionary War that they aren’t even visible in the rear-view mirror.
~ Ann Barnhardt

charlesoakwood

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2011, 12:02:33 AM »
Quote
Quote
If we'd just declare war on Islam, that wouldn't make killing him anymore moral or just.
Actually, it would.  If Islam was an officially declared enemy of the United States, then any American could kill any Muslim with impunity.  That's where we're going, whether we realize it or not.  The sooner we face up to it, the better off we'll be.

Of all the articles and discussions I have never read a more clear or accurate reason no one would declare war on Islam or even broach the subject.  This (open season) has never crossed my mind and I have never read anything approaching this rational which is spot on.  

The only problem is that there are a lot of DAs out there who do not know a muslim from a Hindu or a Sikh or a Buddhist and there will be
many unforgivable accidents.

Quote
Quote
They didn't give Clyde Barrow a trial.
They ambushed him and killed him.
Barrow was a piece of sh*t just like al-Awlaki, and he deserved to die.  But any civilian lynch mob could have done the same.  That's not the rule of law.  That's the government pronouncing a death sentence and carrying it out.  As I said earlier, that's a very dangerous road to start down.  Who knows who the government will target tomorrow?  Do we really want to give them the power of life and death over anyone who attracts their attention, and who they perceive as a threat?
[/quote]

The Barrow point was that this is not something new and a cat has
not just been let out of the bag.  That cat's never been in the bag.
It's part of out free society, our independence, our self defense, our
responsibility to ourselves, our family, and to our neighbors.

Re:
Paraphrasing: Don't look for trouble here for you will find it. And that's the beginning of your problem.

Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead! _ Theodore Roosevelt
Whether Roosevelt said it or not it is a reflection of our character and custom.  




Offline radioman

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2011, 07:38:15 AM »
Haven't I seen 'Wanted: Dead or Alive' posters all my life in Post Offices? Doesn't that warrant taking the guy down anyway and by any means?
TGIF - "Thank God I'm Forgiven"

Offline rickl

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2011, 08:31:26 AM »
Jerry Pournelle has a post considering the issues and implications:  Proscription and Reasons of State

Quote
The obvious question for discussion is whether this activity – summary execution of citizens without trial – is permissible or desirable under Constitutional Government as part of the discretionary war powers of the President, and if so, do they apply within the United States as well as in foreign nations? It is not a simple question. What acts must a citizen perform to earn a place on the proscription list? One of those killed was “Samir Khan, who edited an online magazine that spread the word on ways to carry out attacks inside the United States”, but is that the totality of his acts that made him an enemy of the people? (I say enemy of the people, but I don’t know what designation is given to people who may be killed on sight without trial.) What agents of the Republic are authorized to carry out the act of proscription?

Could a private citizen who somehow got wind of the fact that a given person was on the list plead that as a defense? I killed him because he is proscribed. You cannot prosecute me. (As we certainly cannot prosecute the members of Seal Team Six for the execution of Osama, although I suspect the government of Pakistan would do just that if they could get custody of the team. As for example, suppose that one of the operators of an armed drone, told to kill a certain American citizen on sight if found in Oman or Pakistan, sees that person coming out of a casino in Las Vegas and takes the opportunity to gun him down. Would that be a valid plea in Nevada?

Read the whole thing.
We are so far past and beyond the “long train of abuses and usurpations” that the Colonists and Founders experienced and which necessitated the Revolutionary War that they aren’t even visible in the rear-view mirror.
~ Ann Barnhardt

Online John Florida

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2011, 09:33:51 AM »
  Where he was born has nothing to do with his citizenship. If I commit a crime far less egregious than he did I could be stripped of my citizenship and deported only because I wasn't born here. He gave up his citizenship not his birthright when he left and declared war on this country and its citizens. He was born here and that can't be taken away but his rights as a citizen are history when he leaves the country and takes up permanent residence in a foreign nation. He didn't go on vacation he left permanently that means he's no longer has the same rights as a citizen when living abroad he's now an American born foreigner.


  This country has a bad habit of extending citizenship rights to every Habib Dick and Jose on the planet when there is no such thing. The attack our country and we talk about citizenship rights,they invade our country and we talk citizenship rights,they come as tourists and are here to do our country harm and we talk about citizenship rights???? What the f*ck are we doing??


 If all these right are going to be just handed out to anybody and everybody what's the real value of being a citizen here?If we keep ging all these right that people fought and died to get,what was the point?People are citizens when they have THIS COUNTRY'S BEST INTEREST AT HEART,not when they undermine it's laws and people and government.


 This is total bull, he tried to destroy anything American he could and we want to talk about his rights?? The only right he has is the right to remain permanently silent IE DEAD!!I don't care where he was born that was an accident and we can't let that stand in the way of justice for the people that he had a hand in in killing. It doesn't have to cost millions and take years to get to the the part where his life is over.
All men are created equal"
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Offline rickl

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2011, 10:21:41 AM »
The government should have stripped him of his citizenship when he declared war and/or took up arms against the U.S.  That would make it easier for me to take.

Don’t misunderstand me.  I’m glad he’s dead.  I’m not defending him in any way.

I’m very worried about a slippery slope, though.  Haven’t we all heard the constant drumbeat of Tea Party members described in the media and by some elected officials as “violent”, “racist”, and “economic terrorists”?

I’ve said before that I believe there is a concerted effort to dehumanize Americans who oppose the government’s policies (opposition to Obama = racism). This could lead to a very ugly place.
We are so far past and beyond the “long train of abuses and usurpations” that the Colonists and Founders experienced and which necessitated the Revolutionary War that they aren’t even visible in the rear-view mirror.
~ Ann Barnhardt

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2011, 11:30:00 AM »
The government should have stripped him of his citizenship when he declared war and/or took up arms against the U.S.

But it didn't. John, I completely understand your point, but believing that he renounced his citizenship through his actions and actually having citizenship revoked are not the same thing here. The guy was born here, lived here, left to return with his parents to Yemen, and returned here to attend higher education - where, I might add, he was likely radicalized against the United States by our very own anti-American university professors. He returned to Yemen, and began preaching radical Islamic jihad against America, but he did so as an American. I have seen no account claiming that he ever "took up arms" as has been alleged here. He propagandized, and served as a spiritual catalyst. He gave aid and comfort to the enemy, otherwise known as Treason.

But he did all of these things as a US citizen, whether we believe his citizenship should have been revoked by his actions or not.

Don’t misunderstand me.  I’m glad he’s dead.  I’m not defending him in any way.

As am I. And again, I'm not sure I see another answer than the action taken. Let him live and continue? That doesn't seem wise or moral. But killing him presents constitutional issues. Perhaps this is an instance where the US constitution did not provide us with a clear answer.

I’m very worried about a slippery slope, though.  Haven’t we all heard the constant drumbeat of Tea Party members described in the media and by some elected officials as “violent”, “racist”, and “economic terrorists”?

I’ve said before that I believe there is a concerted effort to dehumanize Americans who oppose the government’s policies (opposition to Obama = racism). This could lead to a very ugly place.

Exactly. WE are a threat to national security, according to THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY.

The government chose to kill a citizen whose death would garner no sympathy, and whose killing would be almost universally lauded. His actual death is uncontroversial. But they killed a citizen. Their stated justification is that he was a threat to national security. They have described you and I in the same way.

"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline rickl

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2011, 11:43:30 AM »
The government chose to kill a citizen whose death would garner no sympathy, and whose killing would be almost universally lauded. His actual death is uncontroversial. But they killed a citizen. Their stated justification is that he was a threat to national security. They have described you and I in the same way.

As Edward Everett wrote to Abraham Lincoln following the Gettysburg Address, "I should be glad if I could flatter myself that I came as near to the central idea of the occasion, in two hours, as you did in two minutes."
We are so far past and beyond the “long train of abuses and usurpations” that the Colonists and Founders experienced and which necessitated the Revolutionary War that they aren’t even visible in the rear-view mirror.
~ Ann Barnhardt

Online John Florida

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2011, 02:23:37 PM »
There is no mechanism to strip him of his place of birth.The guy was an enemy combatant that's enough for him to be killed. You can't arrest him for his crimes he's not here and that would start the military versus civilian court crap all over again.

 I draw no distinction between an Arab enemy combatant and an American born enemy combatant.
All men are created equal"
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Offline AmericanPatriot

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2011, 02:26:11 PM »
I shed no tears over this scum bag.
I worry about when you and I are deemed to be enemies of the state.
It's not a big step to declare the Tea Party, your Church or many of us here on this board as enemies

Online John Florida

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2011, 03:48:59 PM »
I shed no tears over this scum bag.
I worry about when you and I are deemed to be enemies of the state.
It's not a big step to declare the Tea Party, your Church or many of us here on this board as enemies


 This is all within our borders you then become entitled to all the right of a citizen.If the TEA party took up arms against our government then they would be able to come after us with all the law allows. This scumbag was out of law enforcement reach or are we saying that enemy combatants have a right to civilian protections?Even after they take up arms against our civilian population former American or not?This guy went after military and civilian targets so who has jurisdiction over his azz the military or the civilians.

 I say military,what say you?
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Offline AmericanPatriot

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2011, 04:58:43 PM »
John, our government is lawless now.
And it has been a bi-partisan effort.

Constitutional protections are pretty much ignored and the populace is pretty ignorant of those things and pretty willing to go along.

I have seen (on this board) that we frequrntly decry the actions of the government, yet this time it's ok?

My rights as a citizen are diminished daily.

Personally, I don't have a problem of cleaning out Muslim scum wherever we find them.
I'd love to go to a convenience store and be able to speak to an English speaking person

Offline jpatrickham

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2011, 05:13:37 PM »
Anwar al-Awlaki, right now, is nothing but a stinking rotting corpse. You know, just another enemy combant!  ::devil:: bait!

charlesoakwood

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2011, 05:57:17 PM »
Anwar al-Awlaki, right now, is nothing but a stinking rotting corpse. You know, just another enemy combant!  ::devil:: bait!

Wrong jpat, he was more than an enemy combatant.  He was a recruiter, tactician and strategist, field commander, and hierarchical leader of our declared and mortal enemy. He received a merciful death which is more than he deserved.  And "is nothing but a stinking rotting corpse".

Online John Florida

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2011, 08:02:47 PM »
I'm done with arguing with people I like. All I know is screw him and and the bitch that bore him and the country they came from.He's dead and that's that and the people he helped murder at least now their families have some closure.

 
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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2011, 08:16:20 PM »
I'm done with arguing with people I like. All I know is screw him and and the bitch that bore him and the country they came from...

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"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson