Author Topic: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens  (Read 13721 times)

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ttomm46

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #60 on: October 03, 2011, 04:50:45 PM »
He's worm food . roasting in the pits of hell ...I like it! ::danceban::

Offline Janny

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #61 on: October 03, 2011, 05:26:30 PM »
Quote
Now, he is a world class scumbag who deserved to die but I would have preferred a snatch & grab and treason trial & hanging.  Letting the government get used to snuffing citizens they decide are scumbags sets a really bad precedent IMO.
But I'm old fashioned that way.  If they target you next...

We have to be careful that we don't pick and choose which freedoms we want to support.

Those of us here have already been named as enemies of the state.

We may see stuff like this here sooner rather than later

Bullcrap. Nobody here has been named "enemies of the state." We have been targeted by negative political rhetoric by politicians who oppose our point of view.

What part of "Alwaki was an established terrorist who took up arms against this country" do you not understand? He gave up the freedoms we support and that apply to US citizens when he did that.

You are confusing military matters with civil matters.

Why is it that you are unable to see a large distinction between these two things? Why are trying to equivocate them?


Offline Janny

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #62 on: October 03, 2011, 05:33:48 PM »
...Awlaki stripped himself of his citizenship, when he took up arms against his country....

I've seen this claim made by some here, and others elsewhere.

Could you or someone else please point me to the law or constitutional precept that automatically triggers a loss of citizenship? I'm not being snide. I am willing to be educated. But I have never heard of such an automatic trigger.

To my way of reading the constitution, Awlaki's actions would be defined as "treason". From what I can see, there is a constitutional remedy for traitors, and even under that circumstance, I don't see anywhere that says that even the convicted traitor is stripped of his citizenship prior to execution.

Where does it say that "taking up arms" against the country results in an automatic loss of citizenship? (I'm using the "taking up arms" language for the sake of discussion, even though the evidence seems to suggest that Awlaki was a spiritual and rhetorical leader, not a material or operational one.)



He was not stripped of his citizenship. He renounced it on his own, by essentially declaring war on his country. This explains it much better than I can: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2786701/posts

Loss of nationality, also known as expatriation, means the loss of citizenship status properly acquired, whether by birth in the United States, through birth abroad to U.S. citizen parents, or by naturalization. As a result of several constitutional decisions, §349(a) of the current Immigration and Nationality Act ("INA") provides that U.S. nationality is lost only when the U.S. citizen does one of the specified acts described in INA §349, voluntarily and with the intent to give up that nationality.
"taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof after having attained the age of eighteen years."

"entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if (A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or (B) such persons serves as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer;"

"performs an act made potentially expatriating by statute accompanied by conduct which is so inconsistent with retention of U.S. citizenship that it compels a conclusion that the individual intended to relinquish U.S. citizenship."

"committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of Title 18, or willfully performing any act in violation of section 2385 of Title 18, or violating section 2384 of Title 18 by engaging in a conspiracy to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction."


Offline Damn_Lucky

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #63 on: October 03, 2011, 05:55:44 PM »
IDK it's a slippery slope when the government Assassinates an American citizen.
Where does it stop?............The Tea Party?  ::foilhathelicopter::
A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves - Edward R. Murrow

Offline Janny

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #64 on: October 03, 2011, 06:00:28 PM »
IDK it's a slippery slope when the government Assassinates an American citizen.
Where does it stop?............The Tea Party?  ::foilhathelicopter::


I guess I have been talking to myself all this time. Either that, or this is sarcasm. Alwaki was no more an "American citizen" than bin Laden was.
 ::bashing:: ::gaah::

I'm done here on this thread.

Offline AmericanPatriot

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #65 on: October 03, 2011, 06:15:53 PM »
I caught a snippet of Michael Savage a couple minutes ago.

He discussed the Americans who joined the Nazis in WWII and  returned here to spy or create terror.

When caught, they were tried and executed
Because they were citizens

ttomm46

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #66 on: October 03, 2011, 06:38:16 PM »
IDK it's a slippery slope when the government Assassinates an American citizen.
Where does it stop?............The Tea Party?  ::foilhathelicopter::


I guess I have been talking to myself all this time. Either that, or this is sarcasm. Alwaki was no more an "American citizen" than bin Laden was.
 ::bashing:: ::gaah::

I'm done here on this thread.


Charles, Janny , Pat, Hawk, and myself...by my unofficial poll the prick needed capping!! ::rockets::..Besides he was sand N****r anyway....If it was someone we all liked like Ronnie having him capped there wouldn't be hardly any outrage except from the left....personally I want Obama to announce publicly in all the media he will take all the muzzie scum out..then hopefully they might,Well you get the idea ::laserkill::
*
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 06:49:24 PM by ttomm46 »

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #67 on: October 03, 2011, 06:57:58 PM »
...I guess I have been talking to myself all this time. Either that, or this is sarcasm. Alwaki was no more an "American citizen" than bin Laden was.
 ::bashing:: ::gaah::

I'm done here on this thread.


Jeepers Janny. Just when you seem to have actually won the argument with your excellent post about expatriation, you get frustrated and give up?

You've come a long way in convincing me that I've been thinking about this the wrong way. I asked for a statute or precept that triggers an automatic loss of citizenship, and it seems you've provided one, and that Awlaki fits the criteria for having expatriated himself. Well done.

 ::bows::

ETA: Everyone should read THIS POST of Janny's.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Janny

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #68 on: October 03, 2011, 07:06:01 PM »
Thanks, IDP.

 Sorry for letting my frustration get the better of me. This isn't the only forum I have been arguing about this on, and I just see people repeating the same silly arguments!


Offline John Florida

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #69 on: October 03, 2011, 07:28:22 PM »
Thanks, IDP.

 Sorry for letting my frustration get the better of me. This isn't the only forum I have been arguing about this on, and I just see people repeating the same silly arguments!



 I gave up yesterday.
All men are created equal"
 Filippo Mazzie

charlesoakwood

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #70 on: October 03, 2011, 07:40:15 PM »
Thanks, IDP.

 Sorry for letting my frustration get the better of me. This isn't the only forum I have been arguing about this on, and I just see people repeating the same silly arguments!



 I gave up yesterday.

Me too.

But

One more thing.  

An observation, the same prominent people saying this is unconstitutional are the same people
saying the Patriot Act is unconstitutional.

Maybe they are unconstitutional or not; let's concentrate on the election, get a new government of adults and work
on the problem. In the meantime, if H & O want to come get us they will whether this goes to court or not.






Offline Libertas

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #71 on: October 03, 2011, 10:15:09 PM »
By this Regime's standard I am an enemy of the state.  What is to stop them from killing me if they so choose?  Once it gets easy to do outside the country, it stands to reason it will be a matter of if not when it could happen here.

As far as citizenship goes, citizenship can be revoked upon a treason conviction, by accepting an official government position in another country and it can be revoked for serving in the armed forces of a country at conflict with the US.  These Muzzie terrorists are in conflict with us, but not as a member of a specific country.  It is a legal distinction without a practical difference and I would argue laws need to be amended to include terrorist organizations, but nobody can deny a (worthless) American citizen was whacked.

Wasn't there a lot of cases under Bush where dirtsacks captured overseas were citizens of another nation (from other Muzzie nations)?  What we do with them?  Pretty sure we didn't whack em.  Most probably went to Gitmo and were sent to slams in other nations.  Again, Bush comes out more humane than Obama but nobody is talking about that.  God forbid Duh Wun get lit up for being a cold blooded murderer!

I guess Bush should have whacked em all on sight.

Things always look better in hindsight...
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline AmericanPatriot

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #72 on: October 04, 2011, 12:27:29 AM »
Heard a snippet of a Beck replay on the way home from work.
Guess my life is becoming a snippet.

He said the list the dead scumbag was on has 20 names.
Of course we don't know who the other 19 are.

But he also was talking about the extremism of the Tea Party (or It's about Liberty forum posters)

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #73 on: October 04, 2011, 12:39:17 AM »
The case has been made to my satisfaction that Awlaki had indeed expatriated himself and was no longer a US citizen and therefore was a legitimate target. But the fact remains that our government has labeled us and people like us as a threat.

People who revere the constitution, believe strongly in 2A, states rights, have libertarian leanings, etc, are now suspect based only on those criteria. I'm not paranoid, but I also know I am not comfortable with a federal government placing people with my beliefs on some list. I now have to ask myself if I think this rogue government will stay its hand against people like me indefinitely, and I don't know the answer.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline BigAlSouth

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #74 on: October 04, 2011, 05:11:38 AM »
What Janny said.
The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living
are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.
--------------
The enemy of my enemy is my friend; the friend of my enemy is, well, he is just a dumbass.

Offline AlanS

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #75 on: October 04, 2011, 07:24:03 AM »
The case has been made to my satisfaction that Awlaki had indeed expatriated himself and was no longer a US citizen and therefore was a legitimate target. But the fact remains that our government has labeled us and people like us as a threat.

People who revere the constitution, believe strongly in 2A, states rights, have libertarian leanings, etc, are now suspect based only on those criteria. I'm not paranoid, but I also know I am not comfortable with a federal government placing people with my beliefs on some list. I now have to ask myself if I think this rogue government will stay its hand against people like me indefinitely, and I don't know the answer.

Until we get it back under control, we have a LOT to worry about.
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."

Thomas Jefferson

Online ToddF

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #76 on: October 04, 2011, 07:30:38 AM »
Smart people can argue with this.  As I've previously said, I have more of a problem with everything Sheriff Joe has done ON AMERICAN SOIL than I would ever had with what happened to this dirtbag, ON ENEMY SOIL.

That's the difference, I see.

Offline John Florida

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #77 on: October 04, 2011, 08:17:07 AM »
The case has been made to my satisfaction that Awlaki had indeed expatriated himself and was no longer a US citizen and therefore was a legitimate target. But the fact remains that our government has labeled us and people like us as a threat.

People who revere the constitution, believe strongly in 2A, states rights, have libertarian leanings, etc, are now suspect based only on those criteria. I'm not paranoid, but I also know I am not comfortable with a federal government placing people with my beliefs on some list. I now have to ask myself if I think this rogue government will stay its hand against people like me indefinitely, and I don't know the answer.


 ::clapping:: ::clapping::
All men are created equal"
 Filippo Mazzie

Offline Libertas

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #78 on: October 04, 2011, 12:32:34 PM »
Smart people can argue with this.  As I've previously said, I have more of a problem with everything Sheriff Joe has done ON AMERICAN SOIL than I would ever had with what happened to this dirtbag, ON ENEMY SOIL.

That's the difference, I see.

I have to say BS on that MNHawk.  What did Joe do but to incarcerate all ton of legitimate crooks in pink jumpsuits and put them up in tents in the desert?  He didn't kill anybody with a drone.  Or is that now OK?  Hey, if I can whack known crooks on sight I'm liking this new direction.  Oh wait, we still live on Obamaland and the corrupt lying POS Holder is running DOJ...maybe that isn't a good thing.

I dunno.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Online ToddF

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Re: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« Reply #79 on: October 04, 2011, 01:33:27 PM »
Bulldozing a guy's house for raising roosters, while literally riding in in a tank, for benefit of looking "good" on TV and in front of Steven Segal will always be the ultimate Sheriff Joeism to me.  Prisoner beatings.  Graft.  Using the weight of a law enforcement office on political opponents. 

There's a whole lot beyond the pretty pink jumpsuits, tents, and lunch meat sandwiches.

Which reminds me about the guy's habit of maybe running for Senate every 6 years, in which he raises money, then never runs for Senate.  Is he still "mulling" that run, while still collecting money?