Topic: Herman Cain's 999 Plan

[Delnorin]

Disclaimer: Out of the people (I refuse to use the word folks) we have to choose from thus far of the Republican candidates I prefer either Cain or Bachmann.  Since Cain seems to be the one that would foster the most support at some point I had to pick a side of that fence for the good of removing OBummer from office to stop the hemorrhaging of our Country.  Also, I have joined Herman Cain's volunteer website and am joining the cause in getting his name out there and backing him for the election.

Topic at Hand:  Herman Cain's 999 Plan

The entire plan can be read on Herman's website:  http://www.hermancain.com/999plan

At first glance it's a God send of an improvement of the slavery code we have today that puts us all (well, those of us that actually pay taxes) subjective to the iron fist of our government, keeping us from any real freedom anymore.

But within three minutes, key words started rising to the surface and with coming to the surface a release of putrid gas that smelled up the entire area.

What key words?  Empowerment Zones.

Wow, that's a pretty neat sounding phrase right?  Until you look at how it's being used.

Business Flat tax - 9%.... good idea.. good idea.. and then... unless you live in an Empowerment Zone.
Individual Flat Tax - 9%.... good idea.. good idea.. and then... unless you live in an Empowerment Zone.
National Sales Tax - 9%.... good idea.. good idea.. and then... unless you live in an Empowerment Zone.

Wow... sounds like a great idea to pull up stakes, pack up the tent and move into an Empowerment Zone.

Where are these empowerment zones?  It sounds a government under Herman Cain would really be pushing people to live in these zones.  
On his website (link above) under Phase 1 Enhanced Plan - Summary... and I quote: "Features a platform to launch properly structured Empowerment Zones to revitalize our inner cities".

Ah... now it makes since.  The inner-city ghetto Welfare families STILL get to pay zero into the system that they suck and rape from.

Am I the only person just livid about the federal government picking who gets to be the winners and who gets to be the slaves?  How is this not redistribution of wealth all over again?

Sorry, you work outside of the ghetto so you have to pay your taxes.. but if you move in where everyone is killing each other over X-Boxes and cases of cigarettes because their government check was 6 hours late... well then you too could get on the government system and be taken care of as well.

Nobody picking up on the Empowerment Zones and talking about it yet?

[IronDioPriest]

Ugh. That about seals it then.

[Alphabet Soup]

Good catch Delnorin. I'm going to study it but at first blush I'm not liking what I see.

Oh, and 2nds on the face plant.

[AmericanPatriot]

And I don't believe it necessarily calls for repeal of the 16th.
So it could be end up being on top of everything else and no limit to how high it could go.
15-15-15?

Give me the Fair Tax.

[Libertas]

Unless there are transitional mechanisms in this that ends proglodyte slavery rampant in the inner cities then these zones should be aborted.

[charlesoakwood]

I'm sick of clauses and amendments.

[Delnorin]

Unless there are transitional mechanisms in this that ends proglodyte slavery rampant in the inner cities then these zones should be aborted.

I'm not sure if this should be in a separate thread (not your comment.. but the one I am about to make next)....

I always knew this.. but it was just this very moment that it occurred to me in a more-full picture of clarity.

An inner city black man on welfare *is* a professional with a career.  Sure, he's not living the great life with a picket-fence around his house, a nicely mowed lawn and his kid in private school.  But... he does get to sleep in to 11 am each day, he gets his food paid for, he gets his medical expenses paid for, he gets his rent paid for.. the list goes on for a good distance of all his perks.

What is required of him to -earn- all of these perks?

Up until this point I thought he didn't have to do anything.. it was just given to him.

Now though, I realize that he is required to work for these things.  He's required to vote Democrat.  He's required to riot whenever he's told to.  He's required to fester in hatred.

Honestly... I'd rather work a couple jobs, give a shocking amount of my money to the government, get up at 0430 hrs every morning and spend 10 hours a day away from my wife and daughter, drive around psycho drivers and endanger my life to get to/from work, etc.

Truly.. would you vote Democrat?  Riot when the government told you to?  Live with hatred and malice every moment of your day?

I don't think I have what it takes for a career like that.

[AmericanPatriot]

And he's required to sire multiple children

Couple weeks ago, I read about an obit or arrest warrant for an "entrepreneur" who had about 125 children
I'll see if I can find it

[charlesoakwood]

They can couple this with his "that's racist" remark.

We're going to pick an imperfect candidate between Cain or Perry
then punch it up hard or we are going to end up with Romney.


...just heard Chris Christie has endorsed Romney, more for the MSM
to fawn over.  Christie only helps in the NE and Romney has that
anyway.

[BMG]

Alright, I'll try to explain to the best of my ability - bear in mind that I am no economist - I wasn't even a good student in school! 

First here is the summery bullet points from Herman Cain's website ( http://www.hermancain.com/h ):

*Unites all tax payers so we all pay income taxes and no one pays payroll taxes
*Provides the least incentive to evade taxes and the fewest opportunities to do so
*Lifts a $430 billion dead-weight burden on the economy due to compliance, enforcement, collection, etc.
*Is fair, neutral, transparent, and efficient
*Ends nearly all deductions and special interest favors
*Ends all payroll taxes
*Ends the Death Tax
*Features zero tax on capital gains and repatriated profits
*Lowest marginal rates on production
*Allows immediate expensing of business investments
*Eliminates double taxation of dividends
*Increases capital formation. Capital per worker drives productivity and wage growth
*Capital formation will aid capital availability for small businesses
*Features a platform to launch properly structured Empowerment Zones to revitalize our inner cities
*We all know the Fed has tripled the money supply since 2008. They have been printing money out of thin air to finance the Obama spending machine. While true Fed reform that restores sound money may have to wait for my election, the best thing we can do now is to pursue policies that increase the DEMAND for dollars to help mitigate the risks associated with the increase in the supply.
*Pro-growth economic policies equal a strong dollar policy

Now as I understand it, the 9-9-9 plan reduces individual and business income tax rates to 9% from as much as 35% currently, while imposing a 9% national sales tax, scrapping all tax breaks and eliminating the payroll tax, the estate tax and capital gains tax. Opponents are trying to say "well, how will you stop someone later from increasing the 9-9-9 plan?" Same question applies to the current IRS code. If congress is full of tax and spend people, nothing is safe.

The 9-9-9 plan will change how taxes are collected - and that will strip power away from the politicians and put it in the hands of the people. See, that is what is the real core of the Progressive's fear of this plan and Herman Cain - it/He takes power AWAY FROM THE GOVERNMENT and GIVES IT BACK TO THE VOTERS.

The democrats live by their stranglehold of power over their constituents through the tyranny of big government. That is illustrated no better than simply looking at the democrat's wet dream for taxation: The VAT. You want to discuss regressive taxation? Look into the VAT!

Ultimately it comes down to this for me. I AM a 100% supporter of the FAIR Tax (I'll provide more information on the FAIRTax in a followup post after this one for those of you that may not know what it is) - so is Herman Cain. According to Herman Cain (in speeches and on his website [see above address]), his 9-9-9 Plan is a vehicle to get us to the FAIR Tax.

From his website:
Phase 1 - 9-9-9
(see above bullet points)

Phase 2 – The Fair Tax
*Amidst a backdrop of the economic boom created by the Phase 1 Enhanced Plan, I will begin the process of educating the American people on the benefits of continuing the next step to the Fair Tax.
*The Fair Tax would ultimately replace individual and corporate income taxes.
*It would make it possible to end the IRS as we know it.
*The Fair Tax makes our exported goods and services the most competitively internationally than any other tax system.

Now, having said all that I need to conclude this post with this thought. I would MUCH rather skip this 9-9-9 plan business altogether and just get right into the FAIR Tax. There is a problem however. The FAIR Tax is exceedingly easy to demonize as an 'regressive tax' by simply dropping some mis-truth's about it...doesn't take a lot of effort and even the dumbest liberal troll can do it. It's been explained by Neal Boortz (read more about him in my followup post) that this middle step on the way to the FAIR Tax is being undertaken in an effort to make it more difficult to demonize by making the change more gradual. If you understand my meaning? The point here is that it seems to me that Cain is attempting to institute the 9-9-9 Plan because it's easier (and more likely) to get it done now than the FAIR Tax and at some point during his presidency, is then planing to transition into the FAIR Tax.

Alright - on to explaining the FAIR Tax...

[BMG]

If you do not know about the FAIR Tax, I suggest you check out Fairtax.org or The Book, 'The Fair Tax Book' by Neal Boortz (here's that bit about Neal Boortz from my previous post ) and John Linder.

A VAT is an *ADDITIONAL* tax on every step of production.  If someone picks cotton it is taxed because it was 'improved' when it was picked.  Spin it into thread...'improved', taxed again.  Dye it different colors...'improved', taxed again.  Turn it into a pair of socks...'improved', taxed again.  The corporation at the end of this line of 'improvements' pays all that extra tax when they receive the finished product because those taxes were passed along to each new link in the production chain and then they put that extra cost in the price of their finished product when they sell it to the consumer.  That extra cost is not called a tax then.  It isn't on the receipt as 'VAT tax' it is never 'seen' by the public.  That is exactly why politicians love it.  Because, just like our current system, the people never see the money leaving their wallets through taxation.  They only see the cost of a pair of socks jump from $5 to $6 and think it's just raising costs and not an oppressive tax by our Government.  As you can see, VAT is not a sales tax on corporations, it is a regressive tax on every single person in the country because the corporations only pass that extra tax burden on to you and I.  If you want some real damage done to our economy push for a VAT tax because that is what would happen if it were ever instituted.  Don't think so?  Simply look at the mediocrity of the economies of every country involved in the European Union which are required to institute a VAT if they want to join the EU.

For those of you advocating a FLAT Tax, it is true that a FLAT tax would be preferable to a VAT. But a FLAT Tax would still be an *ADDITIONAL* tax because it does not eliminate our current system.

The FAIR Tax would be real tax reform that would help our economy.  It would eliminate our current tax system (get rid of the IRS and all taxes including capitol gains taxes, death taxes and embedded taxes) and *REPLACE* it with a national sales tax of 23%.  The average tax-payer under our current system submits about 25% to the IRS, NOT including non-IRS related taxes like property tax and capitol gains tax, etc.  When you figure in all the other taxes we pay it is estimated that the average tax payer is paying something closer to 45%.  The FAIR Tax would eliminate all those 'other' and 'embedded' taxes leaving the tax payer with a 23% national sales tax and nothing more.  Economists have shown that it would draw in the same amount of revenue for the Federal Government while at the same time bringing fairness and transparency to the system.

The Federal Government's revenue stream would be enhanced by the collection of the FAIR Tax by EVERYONE that buys any good or service (except for essential items and second-hand items - a house is taxed the first time it is bought but not thereafter).  That means that the 50 million tourists that visit us each year would be paying into our tax system just like all the rest of us as would 30 million illegal aliens, black markets, etc.  All citizens would also receive a rebate calculated by family size up to the poverty level.

The FAIR Tax will also enhance our ability to compete in the global market thereby returning off-shore business to our borders.  Recently proponents of the FAIR Tax interviewed executives from 200 international companies.  They asked if the FAIR Tax was instituted in the US how would that affect their company.  80% of the executives said they would increase their business with the US (because their tax burden would be reduced).  The other 20% said that they would move their headquarters here. 

There is also the fact that 300-500 BILLION dollars are spent each year for us to simply comply with our current tax code.  Under the FAIR Tax system, that money would be free to enter our economy in other ways.

The current (seriously considered) options we have for taxation are:
Our current system (which is about 45% per average taxpayer which includes embedded - which equals about 22% in hidden taxes, federal and state taxes).
A FLAT Tax (which is variable % tax in *ADDITION* to our current system).
A VAT (which is a variable % tax in *ADDITION* to our current system).
Or the FAIR tax (which is a 23% consumption-based tax ***INSTEAD*** of our current system).

Now some people are going to whine that the FAIR Tax is some kind of regressive tax on the poor (You want regressive taxation? Just look into the VAT!). But those that say that don't explain that there is a built in cost of living rebate in the FAIR Tax which refunds the cost of the basic necessities thereby making the tax burden on poor people no more than they are currently carrying under our current system.  Similarly the leftists are now trying to say, "OMG the FAIR Tax will require the Federal Government to pay taxes!".  Well duh!  The Federal Government pays the same % of taxes right now with our current system as they would under the FAIR Tax.

Those people not seriously considering the FAIR Tax are essentially saying that the average taxpayer should be paying 45% or higher (with the addition of a FLAT or VAT Tax) rather than the 23% (TOTAL) under the FAIR Tax.

[AmericanPatriot]

I am with you on the Fair Tax.
It does nothing about spending or deficits.
But, that's another battle

I'd also like to see the rate lower than 23%

[BMG]

So, having bored most of you to tears (I'm quite certain!), the reason I'm supporting Cain is not because of the FAIR Tax or the 9-9-9 plan per-say. I'm supporting him because he is the MOST CONSERVATIVE in the race. Of all the other candidates, Herman Cain is the only one I can vote for and actually feel like I've voted for the right person for the job rather than the lesser of two evils (as I've been forced to do now for the last several election cycles). That's it in a nutshell for me. Romneycare, Mr. Isolationist and 'heartless-if-you-don't-like-illegal-aliens' just don't get it - they're not conservatives.

[BMG]

I agree AP, it would be nice to have it less than 23%. The studies that have been done though show that 23% is the lowest it can be in order to balance everything. Regardless, the average taxpayer is still paying about 35% (45% if state and embedded taxes are considered). So after looking at that, 23% is sounding really good to me!

[Delnorin]

Alright, I'll try to explain to the best of my ability - bear in mind that I am no economist - I wasn't even a good student in school! 

I'm totally stoked that you accepted my invite to come here and help out in the sharing of ideas BMG.  Since the time we went to college together you've been upfront, clear and organized with what and why you believe what you believe.  I think you were a good three years ahead of me in the conservative life with putting logic and reason behind what you believed.  It took me being introduced to Rush Limbaugh a year after college before I started to really get the ability to put real words and ideas behind my beliefs.

Thank you for dropping by BMG and adding to our group.

To everyone else:  BMG has an incredible way of organizing ideas and concepts and following a train of thought through from beginning to end.  Very much different than me.. I get distracted by... oh... shiny object!!

[charlesoakwood]

I live in a state that thrives on a sales tax, no income tax.  A state income tax is beyond imagination.

On the face of it 999 is very attractive; however, little things such as "empowerment zones" are counter intuitive
to 999's purpose and a possible insight to Cain's fallibility.   ::camelsnoseundertent::

[Delnorin]

I agree AP, it would be nice to have it less than 23%. The studies that have been done though show that 23% is the lowest it can be in order to balance everything. Regardless, the average taxpayer is still paying about 35% (45% if state and embedded taxes are considered). So after looking at that, 23% is sounding really good to me!

BMG... if 23% is needed in order to balance everything....

What if we were able to incorporate a 45% reduction in all federal government?  Abolish the Dept. of Education, Remove the EPA, cut the military in half by leaving 50+ bases all over the world we no longer need, cutting back or eliminating social security, medicare, medicade, etc, etc.

If we could cut the federal government down to more of what it should be.. could that 23% tax on everyone drop to maybe.... 14%?
Talk about incentive for people to cut their favorite programs.   

[Alphabet Soup]

So,, having bored most of you to tears (I'm quite certain!), the reason I'm supporting Cain is not because of the FAIR Tax or the 9-9-9 plan per-say. I'm supporting him because he is the MOST CONSERVATIVE in the race. Of all the other candidates, Herman Cain is the only one I can vote for and actually feel like I've voted for the right person for the job rather than the lesser of two evils (as I've been forced to do now for the last several election cycles). That's it in a nutshell for me. Romneycare, Mr. Isolationist and 'heartless-if-you-don't-like-illegal-aliens' just don't get it - they're not conservatives.

Not bored by any stretch BMG (and welcome to the fray!)

As I commented upstream, I want to vet the crap out of all this because I want to understand. In my opinion (and my opinion only) "Empowerment Zones" are a no-starter. The very notion makes me bristle. I'm not sure that anyone can convince me of their value - and I know that no one can compel me to submit.

Just as romney broke an irretrievable trust with romneycare, and perry created a fissure that might still be a show-stopper, this twist takes Cain's 999 plan and turns it into "Plan 9 from Outer Space".

Oops - spoke too soon. There is one way that Cain can redeem himself - define "Empowerment Zones" as any of the 50 (or 57 if you are Øbozo) states.

Then we'll talk.

[BMG]

@Charles;

Yeah, I hear ya and I agree. I think the reason for it (as I tried to explain above) basically boils down to the reality on the ground. The guy can't implement the FAIR Tax if he can't get into office. And for him come out of the gate with the FAIR Tax I believe would insure such a beat-down in the liberal media that his chances would be nil (for the reasons I outlined previously). So I think he's using stuff like these 'empowerment zones' to make it harder for the liberals to demonize this half-step to the FAIR Tax.

@Delnorin;

NP - am always happy to chit chat about politics. The more people learn, the better decisions they can make about who they feel is best for the job. People pulling the trigger for a candidate without knowing who that candidate is is how we ended up with Obama in the WH. Education is NEVER a bad thing.

About your query concerning the 23% deal, yeah - it could be lowered in the future. IF all of those dead weights on the economy now were taken away. The beauty of the FAIR Tax is that it STRIPS the power from the politicians and gives it BACK to the people. Once people understand this their eyes fly open and they start supporting the FAIR Tax. But, liberals simply scream that it is a regressive tax added onto the current tax base - a blatant fabrication - but you see how easy it is to demagogue. People never get past that - the blinders come on and their eyes are never opened to the truth of the matter.

Also, since EVERYONE would be paying taxes under the FAIR Tax (and the 9-9-9 Plan also) - this means that it would be EASY to keep it from going up. Can you imagine the hue and cry of the masses should the government start trying to raise their taxes? All the cries about widows and orphans...so yeah, lowering it is always an option. Raising it would be pretty difficult. In addition to that transparency issue that the politicians would have to overcome, Mr. Cain has also built in a 2/3 vote in congress in order to change the tax rate.

[IronDioPriest]

I agree AP, it would be nice to have it less than 23%. The studies that have been done though show that 23% is the lowest it can be in order to balance everything. Regardless, the average taxpayer is still paying about 35% (45% if state and embedded taxes are considered). So after looking at that, 23% is sounding really good to me!

BMG... if 23% is needed in order to balance everything....

What if we were able to incorporate a 45% reduction in all federal government?  Abolish the Dept. of Education, Remove the EPA, cut the military in half by leaving 50+ bases all over the world we no longer need, cutting back or eliminating social security, medicare, medicade, etc, etc.

If we could cut the federal government down to more of what it should be.. could that 23% tax on everyone drop to maybe.... 14%?
Talk about incentive for people to cut their favorite programs.   

NOW YER TALKIN' LADDIE!