Topic: Herman Cain's 999 Plan

[Pandora]

If individual Fed tax rates are reduced to 9%, I don't see how this is going to change the way taxes are collected; the IRS will still be needed.  I'm less than thrilled as well that those working in the Zones will be allowed tax deductions, unlike everyone else.

[charlesoakwood]

,,,and that the IRS will still be intact.

[Delnorin]

If individual Fed tax rates are reduced to 9%, I don't see how this is going to change the way taxes are collected; the IRS will still be needed.  I'm less than thrilled as well that those working in the Zones will be allowed tax deductions, unlike everyone else.

If we want "FAIR".. then 100% of every American citizen should have exactly the same tax rate.
Anything else.. is nothing short of class warfare... picking losers and picking winners.

It smacks of my experience getting out of college and trying to get a job in my degree in Fisheries, Wildlife or Forestry... only to discover that if I got a 100% on my civil service test there was 0% chance of me getting a job.  Because Shanequa was black (+5%), a female (+5%), had spent 1 year in the army (+5%), hurt her ankle in the army (disability +5%), etc, etc.  She could score a 70% on the test and get 105% on her scoring.  I never had a chance......

Because the government had decided who would get special favors.....

The Empowerment Zones better not be like that...

[BMG]

It is true that progressive incrementalism over the last 100+ years has gotten us to this point. But I have faith that *IF* we are able to replace Obama with a true conservative like Herman Cain, keep or expand our majority in the House and gain the majority in the Senate (those last two points have been being predicted for the last 6 months or so now, even by the liberals at this point), well - there is A LOT that can be accomplished when you have all of that on your side.

If things keep going as they are I believe that the democrat party may well be either completely toothless after 2012 or possibly not even be the other party option in our political system anymore - with many of the democrats in there now going to the green, socialist, communist, libertarian and even Republican parties. I know, it is really early to be talking about this and I know that this is exactly what the liberals were saying about the conservatives in 2008. But the damage that has been in the last three years is real - it's obvious and it's getting way worse. A blind man could see it and the democrats have nowhere to hide...they had all the power for two of these three years after all. This current situation we find ourselves in is owned by the democrats 100%.

To top all of that off a lot of the stuff I've been reading lately is that we will be into another (did the first one ever end?) recession by the end of this year - it's not a question of if at this point, it's only a question of the severity ( http://biggovernment.com/publius/2011/10/09/forecast-another-recession-is-imminent/ ); mild or severe seem to be the two choices. Indications are that the EU may cut Greece loose in the very near future and simply let them fail. Germany is apparently balking at increasing their 'share' of the monetary aid to shore up the euro. If that happens we can expect a severe recession or perhaps even a global depression. Regardless of what happens across the pond at this point it seems like Obama's tied to the economy and the economy is sinking one way or the other and with him, the democrat party.

So I have faith that we will be very successful in the upcoming election cycle and a conservative president backed by a Republican congress could get an awful lot of good done and roll back an awful lot of leftist garbage. The one thing that does worry me however, is the election after this and the one after that. After all, if we as a country, were STUPID enough to elect Obama in the first place and hand over the reigns of power to the socialists well...that worries me quite a bit as far as the outlook of our future. So as vital and important as 2012 is (and yes, this upcoming election cycle is the most important we've ever had to date aside from the first as was mentioned earlier), I think that the election(s) in 2016 and 2020 and 2024 (etc) are all going to be equally vital. It's going to be a long, hard slog but we can't simply give up or as Delnorin just said, we'll end up with more Obama's in our future.

I said in an earlier post on this thread that I believed Herman Cain was the best candidate and I'm going to work hard to get him as the Republican nominee; this right now is the vital fight in the upcoming election btw...choosing our nominee. We allowed the Republican establishment (Progressive Republicans I like to call them) choose McCain for us last time. If we allow them to foist Romney upon us this time then all is lost imo. He's not much better than Obama and that means there will be no real win for the country. The vital fight is taking place right now. Even still, if Mr. Cain does not get the nod, it doesn't mean that I'm going to throw in the towel. I'll still vote for whatever excrement sandwich the progressive republicans foist upon us because I have little choice...because not fighting isn't a choice and not voting and allowing the socialists to win...isn't a choice. Period.

[BMG]

@Pandora and Charles:

http://freedomslighthouse.net/2011/09/25/herman-cain-web-ad-explains-his-999-plan-that-would-abolish-the-current-u-s-tax-system-video/

"Here is a Herman Cain web ad explaining his “999? Economic Plan for America. Cain wants to get rid of the current tax code and replace it with:

    - A 9% tax on Corporate Profits

    - A 9% Personal Flat Tax Rate

    - A 9% National Sales Tax

The current tax system would disappear, and be replaced with these three simple measures. Cain has been a supporter of the “Fair Tax” in the past, but believes this is an interim approach that the American people would be willing to accept right now.

One thing abut Herman Cain. He keeps repeating his ideas over and over again, and it appears to be sinking into the consciousness of GOP voters. When he mentioned his “999? Plan at the Florida Straw Poll yesterday, the audience actually said it with him. Perhaps, people are beginning to really listen to Herman Cain."

Cain's plan eliminates the IRS as a prelude to installing the FAIR Tax.

[IronDioPriest]

...Normally I'm more a lurker - hanging out and reading and rarely posting stuff...

Well here's to lurking less and posting more.   A forum like this lives or dies by the contributions of its members. Feel free to dig around and pipe up whenever it suits you.

[Delnorin]

The one thing that does worry me however, is the election after this and the one after that. After all, if we as a country, were STUPID enough to elect Obama in the first place and hand over the reigns of power to the socialists well...that worries me quite a bit as far as the outlook of our future.

*Using my black woman singing voice that turns every sylobol into 53 sylobals*...

AaaaAAaAAaAAAAaaaaaa... MMmmmmeeee...MMeeemmmeeemmmeeeee... NNnnnnNnnnnnnnnn.

Translation: Amen !

[Pandora]

@Pandora and Charles:

http://freedomslighthouse.net/2011/09/25/herman-cain-web-ad-explains-his-999-plan-that-would-abolish-the-current-u-s-tax-system-video/

"Here is a Herman Cain web ad explaining his “999? Economic Plan for America. Cain wants to get rid of the current tax code and replace it with:

    - A 9% tax on Corporate Profits

    - A 9% Personal Flat Tax Rate

    - A 9% National Sales Tax

The current tax system would disappear, and be replaced with these three simple measures. Cain has been a supporter of the “Fair Tax” in the past, but believes this is an interim approach that the American people would be willing to accept right now.

One thing abut Herman Cain. He keeps repeating his ideas over and over again, and it appears to be sinking into the consciousness of GOP voters. When he mentioned his “999? Plan at the Florida Straw Poll yesterday, the audience actually said it with him. Perhaps, people are beginning to really listen to Herman Cain."

Cain's plan eliminates the IRS as a prelude to installing the FAIR Tax.

Yup, caught that by looking for and finding the CSM article that you mentioned .... which I then forgot to link:

LINK!

I'm not banging on Cain, I'm just not sure I like his 999 Plan as much as I ought in order to enthusiastically support him, although having to vote for Romney would be .... I'd rather set my hair on fire and put it out with a shovel.

[charlesoakwood]

I want to like it to , but little things keep popping up.

The current tax system would disappear, and be replaced

It won't just disappear, he will have to kill it. 
He hasn't said he is going to kill it or how.
Saying it will be a big leap and
saying how he's going to kill it will be a doozie.

::ears::

[BMG]

@Pandora & Charles:

There's no problem with being skeptical about a politician. I'm not attempting to persuade anyone one way or another, just trying to lay out the facts on this particular topic as best I can and as I understand them so that others can decide whether they like the facts enough to vote for Cain or not. I've made my decision, but that's me and not everyone has the same opinion as I. Hopefully this thread has been useful at least and provided information enough to get you (and others that may also be interested) pointed in the right direction so that you can make an informed choice - and consider how to spend your vote with your eyes wide open. That is/was my objective in any case.

My philosophy is this: Liberalism is based on feelings and lies. Conservatism is based on reality and truth. If you objectively offer someone the facts concerning whatever issue and give them the opportunity to come to their own conclusions based on factual information then they, and in turn you, will be better for it. If you have to 'beat' people down with your views until they submit then you've done nothing but harmed your cause in the long run because eventually they'll come to dislike the cause and tell others about the bad experience. If you offer them the facts and let them come to their own conclusions and it turns out that their own conclusion happens to coincide with your cause - well, then what you have in the end is someone who will authentically support that cause because they actually believe in it. It's not 'astroturf' at that point, but 'grassroots'.

So keep digging until you're satisfied with the answers - because that is the right way to spend your vote, rather than tossing it away because someone bullied you into doing so.

[AmericanPatriot]

Would not the 16th A not have to be repealed to kill it?

[charlesoakwood]

Sounds reasonable, the 16th caused it, no 16th no more IRS.
Easier said than done.

[BMG]

@AP:

Is your question in regards to the 9-9-9 Plan or the FAIR Tax? Hrm, never mind I'll try to cover both and answer the question.  

Okay, the 16th Amendment is not handled by the 9-9-9 Plan as I understand it (unless I've missed reading something somewhere). Here is my understanding of Mr. Cain's position on the 16th Amendment and the 9-9-9 Plan:

Begin Phase One:

Mr. Cain is looking to put his 9-9-9 Plan into effect as a half-step toward full implementation of the FAIR Tax at some point in his presidency. During his presidency BOTH the 9-9-9 Plan AND our current IRS system would be in place - but he would ignore the IRS system, using the new 9-9-9 Plan instead. Then, at that magic point in his presidency he would implement the FAIR Tax and the 9-9-9 Plan would cease to exist.

End Phase One.

Begin Phase Two:

There is nothing in HR25 (this is the FAIR Tax bill) that requires the 16th Amendment to be repealed prior to the Fairtax implementation. Because if it was done that way, there would be a period where we would have no way of collecting taxes in order for the government to continue running during the period between the repeal of the 16th amendment and the implementation of the FAIR Tax.  Therefore, if the Fairtax were ever to become law, there would be a seven year period to repeal the 16th amendment or the FAIR Tax would sunset and the current system would be dusted off and put back in place.

End Phase Two.

Ok, I'm not 100% certain I answered your question...if not, let me know and I'll give it another shot.

P.S.: As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there are a couple advantages to the 9-9-9 Plan and the FAIR Tax that would prevent politicians from tinkering with the tax rates even while the current system is in flux while implementing the 9-9-9 Plan and the FAIR Tax. Those being: Transparency - the advantage of the 9-9-9 Plan, like the FAIR Tax, is that the basic structure means that any tax increase will affect all Americans instead of just a selected few. Much harder to get that past the voting public as a whole. And a built in 2/3 vote in congress in order to affect any rate changes. Both those things essentially strip power from the politicians (unlike our current system) and give it to the people.

[warpmine]

Would not the 16th A not have to be repealed to kill it?

According to the SCOTUS ruling almost a century ago, the Federal government always had the power to levy the income tax even though they past the 16th Amendment(likely the votes were tallied up by progressives, yes, probably a lie -it past) We'll never know because like Ovomit's records , it's state secret anyway their simply was infiltration into the judicial even at that early date.

Solution of course is to pass the FAIR Tax and make it illegal to institute an income tax forever. I'm hoppeful by then American's will have learned a hard lesson about the connection between income tax and government corruption, although I'm not holding my breath after all have you seen what constitutes a citizen these days. Hell, most believe we're a mobacracy rather than the cosntitutional democratic republic we're supposed to be.

[charlesoakwood]

Given the perceived fallibilities are only perceptions he can't still can't get this thing through congress.
Then where will we be.

[Delnorin]

I've learned through the school of hard knocks a few things.

One... is that any tax will never depart.
Two... If someone is elected on a promise to do something, only half of it will happen.. and usually the half that bites you in the backside.

I love Cain to death.. but I'm like that woman that's been beaten for years... (bad analogy, I don't love the man who beats me... never mind that)..

I love Cain to death.. but I'm like that dog that gets kicked...

Forget analogies....

I'm tired of getting screwed by someone that I trusted.

[BMG]

@Charles:

Well, there is a built in sunset. If the FAIR Tax fails to be sufficiently passed (the hardest part would be in the repeal of the 16th amendment), then it would sunset and we'd be right were we are now with this crappy system we are currently subjected to. By every measure the FAIR Tax is far preferable to our current system and I can't find a different system anywhere else in the world that is better than the FAIR Tax. So I'd love it if it was at least attempted. In the end we'd either be far better off than we are today - or we'd be right back where we are today.

@Delnorin:

True enough - both sides of the political isle have been severely burned by their respective party leadership and both sides are about fed up with the leadership completely. The Tea Party and the Occupy Wall Street people are the results of this unhappiness. The thing is, the Tea Party is actually affecting positive change in the Republican party and the Occupy Wall Street people (Though I view this as positive I guess they wouldn't) are serving to cripple their party. In short, there at least seems to be hope for the Republican side of the equation. But it's gonna take all us conservatives out here that are sick and tired of all the Progressive Republican garbage to start biting the foot that's been kicking us. This Republican Primary IS the 2nd battle in this fight (the 1st having been the 2010 mid-terms) and I believe this primary is also the most vital.

So instead of shying away from the guys kicking you, you need to educate yourself and vote for the best conservative choice in every election forevermore from local to state to national levels and tell everyone that will listen what you're learning. We're fighting a civil war at the moment and THIS blog - and that blog over there - and the neighbor next door are all the front line and the shots we're firing are words that are borne from facts learned through studying the issues. If we give up on this war of words now, we'll likely end up fighting a war with bullets in the not-so-distant future and well, that would be disastrous.

[charlesoakwood]

Eliminating bureaucratic constraints has a much higher probability of passing than a new tax plan.
Especially one that requires the repeal of a constitutional amendment for starters. 
America is in the mood to dump acronyms, it's simple and understandable.
Everyone except the 30% already understand regulation is a killer.
They are in the mood for repeal, repeal, repeal, quick. 
Getting 999 up to full function is a long term operation.

When you are CEO you can walk into the meeting and say, here's the deal.
When at Congress you say, let's deal.

[Libertas]

I don't think the 16th needs to be repealed, all it did was authhorize the government to tax, the 9-9-9 plan is just a taxing methodology.  The harder work to get done IMO is to eliminate the IRS and let Treasury open an office of tax collections to be minimally staffed for that purpose.

I like Cain and will support him, but this quip by Bachmann last night was clever!

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/10/11/bachmann_the_devil_is_in_the_details_of_cains_9-9-9_plan.html

And she's right, the devil is in the details, which is what we're trying to get at here, and hopefully Herman can effectively communicate how this can work should he be elected.

[IronDioPriest]

Cain has done an effective marketing job with 9-9-9. He has forcefully and methodically inculcated the moniker and the basic concept into the consciousness of the GOP electorate, and he's made it impossible for the media to ignore.

He'd better have a "next phase", because this concept and plan is about to undergo a high-colonic. He needs to produce the supporting data, and methodology for the arrival at his conclusions.
______________________

Here's just one thing I need explained. He talks about the 15% payroll tax being eliminated, and that's all well and good. But for anyone who is an employee - not self-employed, in other words - the employee pays half and the employer pays half. The half that the employer pays is not calculated into the employees gross earnings. So for anyone who works as an employee (the vast majority), they would only see roughly 7.5% reduction in the payroll tax, not 15%. The only way the employee would ever see that other 7.5% is if there was some mechanism within the law that mandated the employer raising their gross pay by that amount, and I certainly have not heard of any such provision.

So what is actually happening is the employee is relieved of federal income tax and 7.5% FICA, replaced by 9%. The employer is relieved of corporate income tax and 7.5% FICA, replaced by 9%.

Cain's appearances all defend the 9% income tax/9% sales tax by stating that people will be relieved of 15% FICA tax and all federal income tax, replaced by 9%. That doesn't appear to be accurate unless one is self-employed. I'd like an explanation.