Topic: Four Small Things Good Parents Do That Hurt Their Kids in Big Ways

[Pandora]

4. Try to use reason as a parenting tool.

Sufficient reasoning ability is rarely found in the under ten crowd. And yet how often do we attempt to use logic and reasoning as our primary parenting tool? This ultimately fails because a child’s rationale has two major flawed components.

First, all information gathered has one primary purpose in the mind of a child: “what’s in it for me?” The information gathered is not used to weigh pros and cons, but rather to answer the question “how does this new information best serve my needs?”

Second, it is by nature severely impaired. There is no wealth of experience to draw upon. The younger a child is, the deeper these two perspectives skew their ability to properly reason. A parent that allows a child to flex his reasoning muscles by negotiating a request or rule may feel like he is using his superior intellect in order to get the child to comply in a kinder fashion. However, reasoning with a child while attempting to gain his compliance rapidly deteriorates, and then morphs into little more than manipulation.

Age never being a consideration in my house, asking "why" usually "morphed" into "because I said so"; not the best response in a request for further information, but my Mother also did not want endless negotiation or an ongoing argument either, like my cousin's daughter would do.  She'd keep asking, my cousin would endlessly repeat the "good reasons why", knowing she was being played but unwilling to resort to "because I said so".

The rest of the piece is interesting, particularly the section about meals and food, and the comments are good.

[IronDioPriest]

We've had a rule with our kids that has worked out quite well: Do what I said first, and if you want to ask why after you're done, we can talk about it then.

[charlesoakwood]

Worse, we’ve managed to add an extra decade to adolescence.

Throughout history the parallel exists that as a nation gains affluence the period of adolescence is extended.  This may be a clue to reason that same nation/civilization expired.

[John Florida]

We've had a rule with our kids that has worked out quite well: Do what I said first, and if you want to ask why after you're done, we can talk about it then.

 Good one. Mine was to always keep my promises as long as they held up their end and to always carry out my threats to the letter.That ends negotiations and they always knew the outcome to any situations.

[LadyVirginia]

I think all of these could fall under "catering to your child".  That's the danger.   I've never been that kind of parent--I had friends who would fawn all over their toddler for falling and there was me to my kid "you're fine, get over it--you can't learn to walk if you don't fall."

And I think it does depend on the age and it's a two way street.

 I have the 10 bite rule.  If after 10 bites you don't like you don't have to eat any more--this works fine for little ones. 
I don't make a kid eat something they don't like when they're 16!  And when I put out dinner if I make one thing I know one kid has a problem with I make sure there's something else on the table they can fill up with (they don't like the entree then they can fill up on salad and bread). I spend all day with my kids and I'm waaaay smarter than they are so I don't create battles I can avoid.  The older they get the more leeway until I don't care if they fix something else and clean up when they're done.  Now at someone else's house they know they eat what they're served because they've been taught to appreciate what the host has provided.

At home, my 10 year often won't eat what I've fixed and do I make her? No.  She'll get up and grill a cheese sandwich or make an omelet.  Is this teaching something bad? Hmmm, more like how to do something for herself and not to expect someone else to cater to her.  Besides she's the kindest person you will ever meet at 10 or any age.  She's always thinking of others--if you're sick you want her around because she'll take care of you.  Need money? She'll empty her wallet for you.  Do I get bent out out of shape because she didn't like dinner and didn't eat it. No.  Why would I try to break that spirit.

Negotiations?  Hmmm, somethings just are and as IDP does I offer to discuss it later if necessary.  On the other hand, I can be fun and reasonable too!  I tell a kid to go to bed I'm not drawing a line in the sand and making it about my authority as a parent when all they want to do is finish the last 5 pages of a book.

Now the defending poor behavior really irks me.  I've seen that in action.    I think the parents do it in a misguided effort to avoid "labeling" their kid or maybe its denial or maybe they never learned how to deal with poor behavior.  Anyway, I don't do that and I don't accept it from my kids.  They try to blame their poor choices on some external thing I call them on it---I don't care  what your excuse is you chose to do that and you will accept the consequences.

The 10 year extension on adolescence is so odd.  Kids are coddled and pampered and catered to mostly I think so parents can live through them which may explain the sexualization of kids today in fashion and music, etc.  One of my kids was doing the entire family's laundry (six people) at age 7 correctly.  My friends looked at me like I had two heads when I told them.  All the others had or have similar chores.  They know they're part of the family so they contribute and I've said I don't care if you like it or not. 

I think it's about flexibilty.  These rules suggest there isn't any.  From my own childhood it seemed that those who were strident about such things didn't ever really hear the child either.  My mother wasn't flexible.  It was her way and only her way.  I saw the damage that caused to me, my siblings and her marriage.  But paramount to her was her authority as a mother.  That's all that mattered.  She'd read those 4 rules and nod in agreement.

I'd suggest that parents who are messing up their kids aren't just doing those 4 things. And I love the use of "good" so no parent will feel bad about seeing themselves in the article.

[Pandora]

My mother wasn't flexible.  It was her way and only her way.

Ditto mine. With everything; she threatened to slap me if she caught me wearing a ring on my index finger again.  I was in my mid-teens at the time.  (Ten years later, she was wearing one on HER index finger.) 

I sort of started out the same way -- with everything -- but realized in short order it wasn't the way to go.

There's nothing wrong with explaining to a child laundry-folder that the purpose behind *this* method is to fit the towels in the allotted space; find another way to meet the goal and all is still well.

[LadyVirginia]

Ditto mine. With everything; she threatened to slap me if she caught me wearing a ring on my index finger again.  I was in my mid-teens at the time.  (Ten years later, she was wearing one on HER index finger.) 

Oh, don't get me started!  I can't tell you many times something similar happened to me.

Rather than rebel against all rules I learned to decipher the important ones and passed those on to my kids along with the explanation.  And I'm quite willing to distinguish between my personal preferences and things that are a matter of principles.

[IronDioPriest]

My wife and I developed a parenting strategy that seemed logical to us when the kids were very small. It worked well - our children are all very well behaved and upright, across 2 decades, with a 26 year old daughter, 17 & 16 year old sons, and a 6 year old daughter.

We called the strategy "Ask, tell, make". We started it as soon as the kids were old enough to comprehend that something was being asked of them. It was quite a simple three strikes rule. First we "ask" you to do (or not do) a thing. If you don't comply, we "tell" you. If you still don't comply, we "make" you.

We made sure that the "make" stage was immediate, direct, physical, and unpleasant. For instance - Ask) "Johnny, would you please pick up that toy and put it in your toybox?" - Tell) "Johnny, pick up that toy and put it in the toybox, right. Now." - Make) Walk quickly to the child, looking them directly in the eye with anger, grab their arm, lift them briskly to their feet, physically bring them to the toy, use a firm grip to push them to the ground, place the toy in their hand, lift them back up, drag them over to the toybox, and tower over them with a scolding tone, "Now. Put the toy in the toybox."

Then a quick conversation about how daddy doesn't like to get angry, and Johnny doesn't like it when daddy gets angry, so next time, put the toy away when daddy says it the first time.

By doing this, we taught our kids very early that our requests would be fulfilled, and that how pleasant or unpleasant that is depends entirely upon them. They could respond when we ask, when we tell, or when we make, but in every case, the request would be responded to. With every one of them, we could see lightbulbs go off around 4 years old, that the easy, pleasant road that leads to harmony in the home and lots of praise from mom and dad, and lots of hugs and kisses was the "Ask" road. Why get yelled at and do what you're told anyway, or get manhandled and do what you're told anyway, when you can just do what you're asked, and have no problem?

The thing about this was that it was VERY intensive parenting until the kids were 4-5. We had to be diligently consistent. No laziness in follow-through. We couldn't fail to execute on "Make", or the whole thing would be blown, as it relied on the surety of that unpleasant consequence. But the result is 4 kids who are very respectful, obedient, and secure in the love of their parents, and feeling in control over the harmoniousness of their lives.

Another benefit was that while we used them as a last resort on occasion, spankings were very rare with all the kids. I've always hated delivering those, and never have done so without a long conversation afterward about obedience, fatherly duty, consequences, and love.

[Pandora]

Yes, the "make" part is the hardest, but the most crucial and time-consuming because consistency is the key.  The child has to KNOW he will not be allowed to transgress or disobey and lazy parents, unwilling to invest the time, don't cut it.  After the lesson is taught/learned, life becomes more pleasant for everyone.  Putting the toy away is practice, afaic; I'd be frightened to suspect that an order to stop! right now! do not go into the street! would be disregarded because I, as a parent, was a nonentity to my child.

My Aunt Angie is a a very old woman now - in her late nineties.  Growing up, we kids used to measure ourselves against all 4' 9" of her; look! we're bigger than Aunt Angie!  And she allowed it because no disrespect was intended.  But when Aunt Angie threatened to kick your ass, *unless* -- you followed orders (and the adults discussed it later, or not).  Not because we couldn't "take" her, but because if we disrespected her in any way, five uncles and your father would take.you.out.

[LadyVirginia]

IDP, your strategy sounds pretty much like what I did/do with my kids.  In fact, when my oldest was home a few weeks ago (she's 24) we had a good laugh about when she realized as a kid listening to mom and dad made life a whole lot more pleasant.  The older 3 like to tease the youngest how she's SOL because mom and dad have seen it all and they ain't changing the routine for her cute face and puppy dog eyes. lol

I have to say I've mastered "the look".  It works!  Even on the two adult ones (although I only use it on them now to yank their chain--they don't need discipline from me  or dad any more)

Yep, it takes work and consistency.  I think the kind of discipline we're talking about here works because we're always there.  So that the only time we engage/ interact with our kids isn't just when something is wrong.

You know what is a hoot?  Hearing my daughter's tales from the classes she's taught or the kids she's nannied.  She sounds like me! Every last one of those kids minds her and they like her to boot!

[Sectionhand]

I recognized "Parents" , others and mine , early on for the hypocrites they were . My father who was a firm ( Capt. Bligh ) disciplinarian , would ocassionally employ "logic" or "reason" in explaining to me why I shouldn't do something . Actually , at those times , I think he was just practicing his sales technique which had proven so effective with his many customers . Fortunately ( or unfortunately ...take your pick ) I wasn't falling for it , even at the tender age or eight or nine . I wasn't one of his cutomers . I knew what he looked like when he got up in the morning . I also knew what he ate , his liberal use of profanity when something went wrong ( and ocassionally when something went really right ) , and stuff he would do when I happened to be around which would prompt him to say ; "You don't have to tell your mother about this" . So , in the end , all of his high-flown logic was lost on me when at the same time he could rationalize the very same "bad behavior" on his part . All of my deft arguement ( and I mean arguement in the classical sense ) went for nought as my father's reposts became louder and more clipped until he would lower the boom with the game winning " Because I SAID so , THAT'S why ! Now , shut up and go do your homework ! "

Parents are a shifty bunch .

[LadyVirginia]

Parents are a shifty bunch .

lol

Kids see the wizard behind the curtain so early on I realized that I had to be the kind of person who didn't need the curtain.  I had to be the kind of person I wanted my kids to be.  Let's see I think they use to call it a "role model"......

[BigAlSouth]

OK, raise you hand if you have seen a parent trying to "reason" with a crying four year old in the grocery store isle . . .

[LadyVirginia]

OK, raise you hand if you have seen a parent trying to "reason" with a crying four year old in the grocery store isle . . .

I remember a few years back standing in line at a crowded Michaels (a place I normally try to avoid) and a few check out lines over was a mother, grandmother and a three year old.  The kid was acting out and the mother spent the entire time threatening the kid (stop or else no treat kind of stuff).  We could all hear it and none of it was working. 

This went on for several minutes.  It got on my nerves and I'm usually pretty laid back about such stuff.  It was obvious to all that mother wanted her craft things and wasn't going to get out of line. 

Perhaps grandmom could help?  Well, we all saw where mother got her parenting skills.

 The granny finally spoke up and grabbed some trinket off the shelf nearby and offered it to the kid if she'd behave. The kid still wouldn't listen and kept trying to grab the thing screaming she wanted it. And then grandmother announces so all could hear that the child is bad and isn't getting it.  At which point, when she realizes the mother is about to finish checking out, the grandmother tosses the thing to the cashier to scan.

What is sooo sad is that far too many people think that's normal.....

My kids all knew/still know that if they acted up we left the store and when I went back they would stay home.  Each tried it once and each learned their lesson.  They still can tell the story of when they learned that lesson.   

Then there are the parents who ignore their kids' behavior altogether........

[Libertas]

I remember being reasoned with in a department store...back then we called 'em spankings!

And guess what?  They work!

 

[Pandora]

Yah, the good ole days ... a recreation of which will get one accosted if not arrested today.  There's always a busybody around sure she/he knows better than you.

My mother didn't put up with that either and I can't remember her ever having to remove us and our bad behavior from the scene, maybe because she waited until we were old enough to be cowed with a look-of-intent before we were allowed to mingle with the publickkkk.

But the things I see today ...........  sheesh. 

[Libertas]

Yeah, it's getting hard to tell the difference between the tantrums of toddlers and the tantrums of supposed adults.

The right lessons are not being shared/learned for several generations, that's painfully obvious!

[Damn_Lucky]

 

Good one. Mine was to always keep my promises as long as they held up their end and to always carry out my threats to the letter.That ends negotiations and they always knew the outcome to any situations.

Right on John I can't tell you how many times I punished my self when my kids were little........
Do that again and your in the house........Ooops