Author Topic: Is the EU Going to Topple?  (Read 44728 times)

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Offline Libertas

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #460 on: January 01, 2019, 02:00:47 PM »
Last summer, some protests broke out after revelations that Macron installed a swimming pool in the building, costing around $40,000 to the taxpayers. The president justified the pool, claiming he and his wife don’t want to be pictured by the photographers on the beach, the Sun reported.

  He say that to people being crushed by taxes.

He loves his people...that's all that matters, eh?

https://youtu.be/YU6ebNd9v-w

My fav quote from that movie.
"Sir, the peasants are revolting!"
"You said it.  They stink on ice. "

He actually said "people", Monty Python favored peasants in MPATHG -

"Ah, Now we see the violence inherit in the system!" 

"Shut up!"

"Come see the violence inherit in the system!  Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"

"Bloody peasant!"

https://youtu.be/t2c-X8HiBng

Both are great lines!

Irrumabo!  GOP? - Nope. No more. They made their bed, now let them die in it.*
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Offline Libertas

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #461 on: January 08, 2019, 08:07:00 AM »
Yeah...hard to feel sorry one damn bit for Macron and his statist pals...they deserve everything coming back on 'em!

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-01-07/france-free-fall

Seems like ever since treating Trump poorly he has had nothing bad trouble...

Here's hoping there is more in store!   ::beertoast::

ETA - Heh, I approve.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/01/breaking-us-downgraded-status-of-eu-but-did-not-formally-announce-it/

See what happens when you start some shyt?!

 ::mooning::
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 11:37:48 AM by Libertas »
Irrumabo!  GOP? - Nope. No more. They made their bed, now let them die in it.*
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Offline richb

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #462 on: January 09, 2019, 01:41:01 PM »
EU diplomats get their panties in a bunch as Trump ignores them. 


https://www.npr.org/2019/01/08/683347025/they-conveniently-forgot-to-notify-us-eu-diplomat-downgraded-in-d-c?

The EU isn't even a country......

Offline patentlymn

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #463 on: January 09, 2019, 02:20:56 PM »
EU diplomats get their panties in a bunch as Trump ignores them. 


https://www.npr.org/2019/01/08/683347025/they-conveniently-forgot-to-notify-us-eu-diplomat-downgraded-in-d-c?

The EU isn't even a country......

The NYT is searching hard someone who even cares about this in the US.

BTW I found a youtube channel that is mostly about nationalism. Short well done video clips.
Way of the World. Black Pigeon Speaks is also good.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbUJ4bSI5LGysuouybbGA7g

Watch the first 2-3 minutes below and decide if you want to watch further. Very interesting. Anarcho-Tyranny
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEOmlPM08A

https://infogalactic.com/info/Samuel_T._Francis
http://www.unz.com/sfrancis/anarcho-tyranny-where-multiculturalism-leads/
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

DocTrock

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #464 on: January 09, 2019, 04:13:14 PM »
Let's all hope and pray that the EU will collapse!   Ditto NATO.   Let's pray for its demise as well.

The West has squandered any credibility it ever had on the world stage.   

Smart money is on China and Moscow for the new century.   Both nations are massively building up gold reserves for a gold-backed currency.  Neither nation is aggressive.   Both are in far better fiscal shape than the USA,  and neither has a long history of International aggressive warfare, sanctions, lies, invasions, etc.

Yes,  both nations have "human rights" issues.   But the bottom line is that things are getting BETTER in Russia and China, while things are getting WORSE in America.




Offline Libertas

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #465 on: January 10, 2019, 07:35:03 AM »
Jeez, Doc...shoulda stopped after one sentence.

 ::facepalm::

Credibility anywhere on latter day planet Earth is questionable at best.

China & Russia have their own unique financial/fiscal problems...

Russia, for being the largest nation on the planet only has the 11th ranked nominal GDP (the 72nd per capita) and its economy is dependent upon fossil fuels and raw minerals and is dominated by oligarchs, their chief positive is very low national debt.  Military adventures and stagflation have hurt them and pivoting to China is more of a choice of lack of options than anything.

China, has the 2nd ranked nominal GDP (and interestingly also is 72nd per capita, and they have 9.5 times the population!) and its economy is a patchwork of opposing forces of centralized planning and capitalist exploitation...SEZ's/SOE's...easier for totalitarian regimes to keep wages in check and get the most out of productivity and profitability...but they are ravenous energy consumers and lax on efficiency for the sake of expediency and the putrid toxic haze polluting their cities and fowling their rivers and land is epidemic.   Domestic liquidity issues and an economy that would collapse without trade (especially America) make it highly vulnerable and in no way can the Russian market pick up that kind of slack and it is yet to be seen how far that goes under Putin who is Czar in all but name.

It is also to be determined how the gold and dollar break go...and the rest of the BRICs are no bargain either and the "B" there is under new management that does not look kindly on socialists.  Anything on monetary and trade issues is not going to create winners and losers but will create a lot of losers...and some losers may lash out individually or collectively so picking a winner is a risk-free pastime to enjoy now, reality always has its say.

And no, if the future is totalitarian I'll pass no matter what the form.

Both nations are aggressive.  China is building man-made islands and seizing others in the disputed territories of the South China Sea, angering peaceful neighbors Vietnam, Philippines and Taiwan.  Their "string-of-pearls" scheme (there is a China thread here on all things China and their military, check it out) and South China Sea and Taiwan obsessions can hardly be described as benign.  Plus, since Mao made China Communist...there have been dozens of internal crackdowns, the cultural revolution and not to mention Tibet, Taiwan, Korea, Vietnam, India, Russia (Zhenbou Is.), Burma, Vietnam again and again, Pakistan and Mali.

Russia, well...to follow Russian aggression it is almost always following pipelines.  Just since the fall of the Soviet state there has been Chechnya (twice), Ukraine (Donbass and Annexation of Crimea) still on-going and Syria, also still on-going.  They have always had some schizophrenia about identifying as East or West...and can never seem to get along with the West very well or the East for very long.

Sure, America is to overstretched militarily and paying the cost to safeguard insolent ungrateful louts...but that could be remedied if house is cleaned at home, and it will be peacefully or violently...but the belief that there is a safe haven anywhere always amuses me.  If things break hard enough militarily or economically it won't matter which one happens first or where you plan to ride it out.

Irrumabo!  GOP? - Nope. No more. They made their bed, now let them die in it.*
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DocTrock

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #466 on: January 16, 2019, 01:29:02 PM »
From your post above:

Jeez, Doc...shoulda stopped after one sentence.

 ::facepalm::

1.  Credibility anywhere on latter day planet Earth is questionable at best.

2.  China & Russia have their own unique financial/fiscal problems...

3.  Russia...................... Military adventures and stagflation have hurt them and pivoting to China is more of a choice of lack of options than anything.
.



4.  And no, if the future is totalitarian I'll pass no matter what the form.

5.  Both nations are aggressive. 



1.  Nonsense.  America is the nation backing out of treaties, imposing sanctions, boycotts and blockades on everyone else.   It is America and her lackey nations who lack credibility.   At least that's how the rest of the world looks at it.  (IE other than America and GB)

2.  Of course China and Russia have financial problems.   So does America!  Who is more in debt?  Which nations are getting out of debt, which are adding more?  Who taxes their people the most?    I'll answer for you:  America is the most indebted nation on earth.  America is the one adding debt at a record pace.  Russia's top tax rate is 13%......

3.  Russia's military adventures?  Are you watching CNN and Fox?  What military adventures?   Do you dare compare Russia's military "adventures" to Americas?   Seriously?  As for Stagflation....again, nonsense.  Russia is shrugging off US sanctions and still their economy is growing....slowly....but the sanctions no longer have their bite.   Their pivot to China and their plans to quickly provide an alternative to the Petrodollar is a brilliant strategy.  Once they do this----and oil is already being bought and sold using the RMB---  dollar hegemony is over and "sanctions" will be as effective as a Sopwith Camel against a modern airforce.

4.  The future?   The present is totalitarian. America is totalitarian right now and getting worse.   

5.  Are you saying that Russia and China are both aggressive?  Who has China invaded lately?  Russia?  Does either nation have anything close to the amount of foreign military bases and active wars all over the planet like America?   If you maintain China and Russia are aggressive, then what the hell do you call America's behavior?

« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 01:35:32 PM by DocTrock »

Online John Florida

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #467 on: January 16, 2019, 07:41:39 PM »
From your post above:

Jeez, Doc...shoulda stopped after one sentence.

 ::facepalm::

1.  Credibility anywhere on latter day planet Earth is questionable at best.

2.  China & Russia have their own unique financial/fiscal problems...

3.  Russia...................... Military adventures and stagflation have hurt them and pivoting to China is more of a choice of lack of options than anything.
.



4.  And no, if the future is totalitarian I'll pass no matter what the form.

5.  Both nations are aggressive. 



1.  Nonsense.  America is the nation backing out of treaties, imposing sanctions, boycotts and blockades on everyone else.   It is America and her lackey nations who lack credibility.   At least that's how the rest of the world looks at it.  (IE other than America and GB)

2.  Of course China and Russia have financial problems.   So does America!  Who is more in debt?  Which nations are getting out of debt, which are adding more?  Who taxes their people the most?    I'll answer for you:  America is the most indebted nation on earth.  America is the one adding debt at a record pace.  Russia's top tax rate is 13%......

3.  Russia's military adventures?  Are you watching CNN and Fox?  What military adventures?   Do you dare compare Russia's military "adventures" to Americas?   Seriously?  As for Stagflation....again, nonsense.  Russia is shrugging off US sanctions and still their economy is growing....slowly....but the sanctions no longer have their bite.   Their pivot to China and their plans to quickly provide an alternative to the Petrodollar is a brilliant strategy.  Once they do this----and oil is already being bought and sold using the RMB---  dollar hegemony is over and "sanctions" will be as effective as a Sopwith Camel against a modern airforce.

4.  The future?   The present is totalitarian. America is totalitarian right now and getting worse.   

5.  Are you saying that Russia and China are both aggressive?  Who has China invaded lately?  Russia?  Does either nation have anything close to the amount of foreign military bases and active wars all over the planet like America?   If you maintain China and Russia are aggressive, then what the hell do you call America's behavior?


" Smart money is on China and Moscow for the new century.   Both nations are massively building up gold reserves for a gold-backed currency.  Neither nation is aggressive.   Both are in far better fiscal shape than the USA,  and neither has a long history of International aggressive warfare, sanctions, lies, invasions, etc."


  I was gonna give you time to settle in but I can't take it.


     Yup were backing out of treaties that do nothing but cost us money and abuse from the other signers. 

   Nato we pay and the rest had to be shamed into it but boy if they have a problem watch how fast the call Daddy for help and support.    Paris accords  I don't think I have to explain it do I.  would you want us to keep those monkeys on their free ride at NATO or stay in the Paris accords?


  You're right we are in debt and how!  Part of that debt is once again giving money to the planet and borrowing it to do it . Thank God we can still pay for it and expand the GDP.

   You thin Russia trusts the Chinese enough to use their money for oil?  China that changes the value of their money at will.  If and when enough Russian oil and gas is sold using Chinese currency China can wipe Russia out financially with the stroke of a pen and never fire a shot.

  Russia's military adventures?  Are you watching CNN and Fox?  What military adventures?



  I don't know maybe Georgia and the Ukraine could answer that for you and it's not over.


  China not aggressive?  Tell that to Hong Kong and Taiwan and Tibet. And maybe not sending battle ships all over but they are buying up any and everything they can all over Africa and South America and anywhere else they can get into. 

  " Smart money is on China and Moscow for the new century.   Both nations are massively building up gold reserves for a gold-backed currency.  Neither nation is aggressive.   Both are in far better fiscal shape than the USA,  and neither has a long history of International aggressive warfare, sanctions, lies, invasions, etc."



   China has no plans on going into gold backed currency that would stop them from manipulating their currency which has given them the edge in world business.  They want to open up they drop their money value.


  As for the rest are you suggesting that we withdraw from the world and keep to our borders and leave the world to whoever wants it?  This way we don't have to have wars, lie, put on sanctions or invade for any reason at all?




 

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Online ToddF

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #468 on: January 17, 2019, 06:24:46 AM »
Who's more in debt than the US?  Well, Japan right off the top of my head, in debt more than 2x their GDP, last time I read.  And they're also victims of China's aggression.  A China who's reeling thanks to the trade war.

Offline Libertas

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #469 on: January 17, 2019, 07:09:31 AM »
Yup.  Kinda proves the point that kabuki in all matters financial fiscal monetary and trade...and politics...is largely global...the tensions and the slack if kept in a reasonably manageable range helps maintain balance in the various imbalances and certain actions may generate some temporary advantages or merely harmonize endemic advantages in place.  The point being...when something brakes hard enough to cause the imbalances to go into a state of fully uncontrollable volatility it is not going to leave the others unscathed...if you think winning is defined as being harmed less than the other schmucks then you have probably identified the party most interested in breaking things.
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DocTrock

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #470 on: January 17, 2019, 10:25:51 AM »



" Smart money is on China and Moscow for the new century.   Both nations are massively building up gold reserves for a gold-backed currency.  Neither nation is aggressive.   Both are in far better fiscal shape than the USA,  and neither has a long history of International aggressive warfare, sanctions, lies, invasions, etc."


  I was gonna give you time to settle in but I can't take it.


     Yup were backing out of treaties that do nothing but cost us money and abuse from the other signers. 

   Nato we pay and the rest had to be shamed into it but boy if they have a problem watch how fast the call Daddy for help and support.    Paris accords  I don't think I have to explain it do I.  would you want us to keep those monkeys on their free ride at NATO or stay in the Paris accords?


  You're right we are in debt and how!  Part of that debt is once again giving money to the planet and borrowing it to do it . Thank God we can still pay for it and expand the GDP.

   You thin Russia trusts the Chinese enough to use their money for oil?  China that changes the value of their money at will.  If and when enough Russian oil and gas is sold using Chinese currency China can wipe Russia out financially with the stroke of a pen and never fire a shot.

  Russia's military adventures?  Are you watching CNN and Fox?  What military adventures?



  I don't know maybe Georgia and the Ukraine could answer that for you and it's not over.


  China not aggressive?  Tell that to Hong Kong and Taiwan and Tibet. And maybe not sending battle ships all over but they are buying up any and everything they can all over Africa and South America and anywhere else they can get into. 

  " Smart money is on China and Moscow for the new century.   Both nations are massively building up gold reserves for a gold-backed currency.  Neither nation is aggressive.   Both are in far better fiscal shape than the USA,  and neither has a long history of International aggressive warfare, sanctions, lies, invasions, etc."



   China has no plans on going into gold backed currency that would stop them from manipulating their currency which has given them the edge in world business.  They want to open up they drop their money value.


  As for the rest are you suggesting that we withdraw from the world and keep to our borders and leave the world to whoever wants it?  This way we don't have to have wars, lie, put on sanctions or invade for any reason at all?
 

Hi John,

There are several fallacies and false assumptions in your argument.

First off using Ukraine as an example (and your only example really) of "Russian Aggression" is not true.  Russia never invaded Ukraine.  Russia has no military presence in Ukraine, no drone strikes, nothing like that at all.    Russia was not aggressive towards Ukraine in the sense that I mean.   Sure, they want influence, maybe even "control....."

But compared to America's interventions in Ukraine, Russia doesn't even come close.    Again, Russia never invaded Ukraine.

On the other hand.....NATO.    It was promised by America to Russia that NATO would not "expand one inch to the East."   Well that was a lie.    Imagine if Russia put troops and missiles in Mexico,  put a puppet in office and tried to block America from building a pipeline?   That never happened!!!   That would be Russian Aggression.    You've got USA and Russia confused, as do many conservatives.

NATO itself is obsolete and has been for a long, long time.   

Now let's shed light on your claim that Russia and China don't trust eachother enough to do oil deals in their own currencies:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-yuan-rouble/china-establishes-yuan-ruble-payment-system-idUSKBN1CH0ML?ref=hvper.com

What matters, in this case, is that Beijing – as well as Moscow – clearly read the writing on the wall when, in 2012, Washington applied pressure on SWIFT; blocked international clearing for every Iranian bank; and froze $100 billion in Iranian assets overseas as well as Tehran’s potential to export oil. In the event that Washington might decide to slap sanctions on China, bank clearing though CIPS works as a de facto sanctions-evading mechanism.

Last March, Russia’s central bank opened its first office in Beijing. Moscow is launching its first $1 billion yuan-denominated government bond sale. Moscow has made it very clear it is committed to a long-term strategy to stop using the US dollar as their primary currency in global trade, moving alongside Beijing towards what could be dubbed a post-Bretton Woods exchange system.

Virtually all commodities must be traded in US dollars, and these petrodollars are recycled into US Treasuries. Through this mechanism, Washington has accumulated an astonishing $20 trillion in debt – and counting.

Vast populations all across MENA (Middle East-Northern Africa) also learned what happened when Iraq’s Saddam Hussein decided to sell oil in euros, or when Muammar Gaddafi planned to issue a pan-African gold dinar.

But now it’s China who’s entering the fray, following through on plans set up way back in 2012. And the name of the game is oil-futures trading priced in yuan, with the yuan fully convertible into gold on the Shanghai and Hong Kong foreign exchange markets.

Trades have already taken place! The fundamentals are clear: this triple win (oil/yuan/gold) completely bypasses the US dollar. The era of the petro-yuan is at hand.

Gold is essential in this strategy. Russia, China, India, Brazil & South Africa are all either large producers or consumers of gold – or both. Following what has been extensively discussed in their summits since the early 2010s, the BRICS countries are bound to focus on trading physical gold.

How long until Saudi Arabia decides to sell oil to its largest customer, China, with this alternative to the Petrodollar?   Iran is ready and willing to sell their oil in this manner as well.  https://www.zerohedge.com/news/very-different-take-iran-barters-food-story

As for Chinese aggression.....when did they invade Hong Kong?   Taiwan?   I must have been watching Trailer Park Boys and smoking weed during those invasions.....can you provide a few links to demonstrate how the Chinese have been aggressive towards HK?    I'll capitulate on Tibet.   

As for your claims that China has no plans for a gold backed currency....just do some research.

The end of the Petrodollar is at hand.   Russia and China are both in FAR BETTER fiscal shape than the USA.

The Bush/Obama/Clinton/Trump policy is to punish and intimidate everyone into using the SWIFT system, which means the petrodollar, which means US Treasuries.    Russia, China, Iran, India and many other nations are looking for a workaround to SWIFT, which means US sanctions will be like a barking Chihuahua behind a fence......because the mechanism is already in place and deals have been done and are being done.

I can go on and on......

As you get to know me----assuming I stick around----you'll find that I make bombastic statements and BACK THEM UP WITH FACTS.

Most conservatives and liberals ignore the facts and soon get right to personal insults and the like.   I'm hoping you don't do that.

So, to summarize:

1.  When was China aggressive?
2.  When was Russia Aggressive
3.  When is the USA not aggressive?
4.  China and Russia are already trading oil in their own currencies
5.  NATO is obsolete and does nothing but drain the treasury and manufacture enemies

Let's limit further discussion to one point at at time.....


Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #471 on: January 17, 2019, 10:45:29 AM »
I am not sure its fair to say China is in better shape than the US. Especially since the bulk of their GDP is still reliant upon trade with the US..

However it is obvious they are trying to build a secondary system, and opening their own physical gold exchange is obvious an effective  means of shunting gold their way  and avoiding the corrupt paper based market in the west.  However,  there will be no one left out when the dollar finally goes.. China and BRICS will suck-- but they will probably suck the least - which is all that will be required.  A Currency backed even 10%  by gold  is better than one that is 100%  fiat.

Russia and China will be militarily aggressive where ever it will seem prudent for them to do so. China is definitely building bases and making larger territorial claims , and sorry, but yes, Putin is very  involved in the Ukraine and Syria -  Given Obama's wars in the Middle East one could argue the US is more aggressive, but it doesn't matter.  As the United States Declines in power i think it is very rational to expect both Russia and China will become more militarily aggressive -since there is no realistic check preventing them from doing so. Power corrupts. Period.

But war is a high cost business, and there is no need to use tanks and missiles if you can simply use your currency  to force people into line. So I would expect both methods to be used, to whatever end  is seen to been cost-effective.

Offline Libertas

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #472 on: January 17, 2019, 11:40:10 AM »
I guess Chechnya, Ukraine, Crimea are all figments of yankee imperialist imaginations...and sticking up for peerless humanitarian and freedom-loving regimes in Syria and the Satanic Theocracy of Persia gives Russia the moral high ground in international relations?



I suppose we can expect Russia...and their pals in Communist China...to treat American's fairly if for whatever reason America implodes and Civil War II rages...the same way America treated Russian's fairly at the fall of the Soviet Union...

After all America did not invade Russia, did not seize Russian territory, Russian assets and Russian resources...did not rape, kill or molest any of their people...

I suppose you can assure me without laughing, crossing fingers etc that Russia will treat an imploding America with as much restraint?

It is my only regret America did not exploit greater the fall of the Soviets.  America, you Sir are proof, always gets all of the blame, none of the credit...all those ungrateful nations we saved...and those ungrateful nations we restrained ourselves from exploiting...they will all come to kill, rape and steal...should America falter.

Tell me I am wrong, tell me your friends are peaceful and honorable!

Weisshaupt is correct...and in the end China will devour friend and foe alike...without America Europe is toast, Japan and Taiwan are completely f**ked...without America how long can Russia keep China at bay?  China will devour all and not blink at the cost in warfare terms...they have lots of fodder...

But again, picking a winner in such a scenario is an exercise in picking the surviving loser...have fun living in that paradise.
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DocTrock

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #473 on: January 17, 2019, 01:20:25 PM »
I am not sure its fair to say China is in better shape than the US. Especially since the bulk of their GDP is still reliant upon trade with the US..

However it is obvious they are trying to build a secondary system, and opening their own physical gold exchange is obvious an effective  means of shunting gold their way  and avoiding the corrupt paper based market in the west.  However,  there will be no one left out when the dollar finally goes.. China and BRICS will suck-- but they will probably suck the least - which is all that will be required.  A Currency backed even 10%  by gold  is better than one that is 100%  fiat.

Russia and China will be militarily aggressive where ever it will seem prudent for them to do so. China is definitely building bases and making larger territorial claims , and sorry, but yes, Putin is very  involved in the Ukraine and Syria -  Given Obama's wars in the Middle East one could argue the US is more aggressive, but it doesn't matter.  As the United States Declines in power i think it is very rational to expect both Russia and China will become more militarily aggressive -since there is no realistic check preventing them from doing so. Power corrupts. Period.

But war is a high cost business, and there is no need to use tanks and missiles if you can simply use your currency  to force people into line. So I would expect both methods to be used, to whatever end  is seen to been cost-effective.

Assuming we both agree that the USSR and Russia under Putin are not the same thing....when did Russia invade anyone?   Please show me where the Russian military is in Ukraine.  Please explain how and when they forcibly entered Crimea, Syria or Ukraine.   You can't.

They were invited into Syria by Assad.....a very smart move on his part, because the USA was aggressively trying to overthrow the Assad regime.  Certainly they are not invading or showing aggression in Syria.

Crimea, which has always been part of Russia historically, voted in a democratic election to return to Russia.  No tanks, no drones, no missiles......and it was again clearly the will of the people to align with Russia.

Ukraine.  The USA meddled and did "regime change," overthrowing the former government and installing a pro-west dictator.  Russia never invaded Ukraine.   The USA did....

Regarding the Yuan/Ruble/Gold substitute for the Petrodollar.   It's happening as we speak and yes, both countries are AGGRESSIVELY accumulating gold in order to form an new global currency that will compete with the Petrodollar at first, and destroy it later, due to the simple fact that the currency will be backed by gold.

It's hard to predict just how aggressive China and Russia might become when the USA is no longer the global policeman.  One thing we know for sure, if history is any guide,  neither nation will be anything close to as aggressive as the USA has been in the 21st century.   Of course, history doesn't always repeat itself.   Just almost always.

Online John Florida

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #474 on: January 17, 2019, 01:29:10 PM »



" Smart money is on China and Moscow for the new century.   Both nations are massively building up gold reserves for a gold-backed currency.  Neither nation is aggressive.   Both are in far better fiscal shape than the USA,  and neither has a long history of International aggressive warfare, sanctions, lies, invasions, etc."


  I was gonna give you time to settle in but I can't take it.


     Yup were backing out of treaties that do nothing but cost us money and abuse from the other signers. 

   Nato we pay and the rest had to be shamed into it but boy if they have a problem watch how fast the call Daddy for help and support.    Paris accords  I don't think I have to explain it do I.  would you want us to keep those monkeys on their free ride at NATO or stay in the Paris accords?


  You're right we are in debt and how!  Part of that debt is once again giving money to the planet and borrowing it to do it . Thank God we can still pay for it and expand the GDP.

   You thin Russia trusts the Chinese enough to use their money for oil?  China that changes the value of their money at will.  If and when enough Russian oil and gas is sold using Chinese currency China can wipe Russia out financially with the stroke of a pen and never fire a shot.

  Russia's military adventures?  Are you watching CNN and Fox?  What military adventures?



  I don't know maybe Georgia and the Ukraine could answer that for you and it's not over.


  China not aggressive?  Tell that to Hong Kong and Taiwan and Tibet. And maybe not sending battle ships all over but they are buying up any and everything they can all over Africa and South America and anywhere else they can get into. 

  " Smart money is on China and Moscow for the new century.   Both nations are massively building up gold reserves for a gold-backed currency.  Neither nation is aggressive.   Both are in far better fiscal shape than the USA,  and neither has a long history of International aggressive warfare, sanctions, lies, invasions, etc."



   China has no plans on going into gold backed currency that would stop them from manipulating their currency which has given them the edge in world business.  They want to open up they drop their money value.


  As for the rest are you suggesting that we withdraw from the world and keep to our borders and leave the world to whoever wants it?  This way we don't have to have wars, lie, put on sanctions or invade for any reason at all?
 

Hi John,

There are several fallacies and false assumptions in your argument.

First off using Ukraine as an example (and your only example really) of "Russian Aggression" is not true.  Russia never invaded Ukraine.  Russia has no military presence in Ukraine, no drone strikes, nothing like that at all.    Russia was not aggressive towards Ukraine in the sense that I mean.   Sure, they want influence, maybe even "control....."

But compared to America's interventions in Ukraine, Russia doesn't even come close.    Again, Russia never invaded Ukraine.

On the other hand.....NATO.    It was promised by America to Russia that NATO would not "expand one inch to the East."   Well that was a lie.    Imagine if Russia put troops and missiles in Mexico,  put a puppet in office and tried to block America from building a pipeline?   That never happened!!!   That would be Russian Aggression.    You've got USA and Russia confused, as do many conservatives.

NATO itself is obsolete and has been for a long, long time.   

Now let's shed light on your claim that Russia and China don't trust eachother enough to do oil deals in their own currencies:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-yuan-rouble/china-establishes-yuan-ruble-payment-system-idUSKBN1CH0ML?ref=hvper.com

What matters, in this case, is that Beijing – as well as Moscow – clearly read the writing on the wall when, in 2012, Washington applied pressure on SWIFT; blocked international clearing for every Iranian bank; and froze $100 billion in Iranian assets overseas as well as Tehran’s potential to export oil. In the event that Washington might decide to slap sanctions on China, bank clearing though CIPS works as a de facto sanctions-evading mechanism.

Last March, Russia’s central bank opened its first office in Beijing. Moscow is launching its first $1 billion yuan-denominated government bond sale. Moscow has made it very clear it is committed to a long-term strategy to stop using the US dollar as their primary currency in global trade, moving alongside Beijing towards what could be dubbed a post-Bretton Woods exchange system.

Virtually all commodities must be traded in US dollars, and these petrodollars are recycled into US Treasuries. Through this mechanism, Washington has accumulated an astonishing $20 trillion in debt – and counting.

Vast populations all across MENA (Middle East-Northern Africa) also learned what happened when Iraq’s Saddam Hussein decided to sell oil in euros, or when Muammar Gaddafi planned to issue a pan-African gold dinar.

But now it’s China who’s entering the fray, following through on plans set up way back in 2012. And the name of the game is oil-futures trading priced in yuan, with the yuan fully convertible into gold on the Shanghai and Hong Kong foreign exchange markets.

Trades have already taken place! The fundamentals are clear: this triple win (oil/yuan/gold) completely bypasses the US dollar. The era of the petro-yuan is at hand.

Gold is essential in this strategy. Russia, China, India, Brazil & South Africa are all either large producers or consumers of gold – or both. Following what has been extensively discussed in their summits since the early 2010s, the BRICS countries are bound to focus on trading physical gold.

How long until Saudi Arabia decides to sell oil to its largest customer, China, with this alternative to the Petrodollar?   Iran is ready and willing to sell their oil in this manner as well.  https://www.zerohedge.com/news/very-different-take-iran-barters-food-story

As for Chinese aggression.....when did they invade Hong Kong?   Taiwan?   I must have been watching Trailer Park Boys and smoking weed during those invasions.....can you provide a few links to demonstrate how the Chinese have been aggressive towards HK?    I'll capitulate on Tibet.   

As for your claims that China has no plans for a gold backed currency....just do some research.

The end of the Petrodollar is at hand.   Russia and China are both in FAR BETTER fiscal shape than the USA.

The Bush/Obama/Clinton/Trump policy is to punish and intimidate everyone into using the SWIFT system, which means the petrodollar, which means US Treasuries.    Russia, China, Iran, India and many other nations are looking for a workaround to SWIFT, which means US sanctions will be like a barking Chihuahua behind a fence......because the mechanism is already in place and deals have been done and are being done.

I can go on and on......

As you get to know me----assuming I stick around----you'll find that I make bombastic statements and BACK THEM UP WITH FACTS.

Most conservatives and liberals ignore the facts and soon get right to personal insults and the like.   I'm hoping you don't do that.

So, to summarize:

1.  When was China aggressive?
2.  When was Russia Aggressive
3.  When is the USA not aggressive?
4.  China and Russia are already trading oil in their own currencies
5.  NATO is obsolete and does nothing but drain the treasury and manufacture enemies

Let's limit further discussion to one point at at time.....


  As preparations for the 2008 Olympic Games reached their final stages, so did the 1992 ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia. A series of events which began on August 1 eventually culminated into a five-day war between Georgia, Russia, South Ossetia, and Abkhazia, which has been recognized as the first European war of the 21st century. The war ran from 7-12 August 2008 and ended after Russian President, Dmitri Mendelev, announced the cessation of his “peace enforcement” campaign in Georgia.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/south-ossetia-incident.html


Beset by unrest since a 2014 political uprising ousted former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, Kiev's successor government has accused Moscow of seizing the Crimean Peninsula in a disputed referendum and sponsoring an eastern insurgency. Nearly five years into the conflict, Russian Security Council Secretary Nikolai Patrushev warned Tuesday that Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko's current pro-West strategy could lead to a total dismantling of the state.

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-says-ukraine-no-longer-country-1292632

 n Tuesday – the day El Salvador formally switched its allegiance from Taiwan to China – the Chinese state-run Global Times published an editorial, headlined: “After El Salvador, which country will be next to abandon Taiwan?” and a cartoon with the caption: “Taiwan down to 17 ‘allies’ and counting.”

All of this neatly summarizes the triumphalist mood in (the People’s Republic of China and in some respects, such a reaction is understandable.

  http://www.atimes.com/chinas-aggression-against-taiwan-could-backfire/

  ok Nato can burn.  when has the USA just started a war for no reason good or bad.
All men are created equal"
 Filippo Mazzie

DocTrock

  • Guest
Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #475 on: January 17, 2019, 02:07:29 PM »



" Smart money is on China and Moscow for the new century.   Both nations are massively building up gold reserves for a gold-backed currency.  Neither nation is aggressive.   Both are in far better fiscal shape than the USA,  and neither has a long history of International aggressive warfare, sanctions, lies, invasions, etc."


  I was gonna give you time to settle in but I can't take it.


     Yup were backing out of treaties that do nothing but cost us money and abuse from the other signers. 

   Nato we pay and the rest had to be shamed into it but boy if they have a problem watch how fast the call Daddy for help and support.    Paris accords  I don't think I have to explain it do I.  would you want us to keep those monkeys on their free ride at NATO or stay in the Paris accords?


  You're right we are in debt and how!  Part of that debt is once again giving money to the planet and borrowing it to do it . Thank God we can still pay for it and expand the GDP.

   You thin Russia trusts the Chinese enough to use their money for oil?  China that changes the value of their money at will.  If and when enough Russian oil and gas is sold using Chinese currency China can wipe Russia out financially with the stroke of a pen and never fire a shot.

  Russia's military adventures?  Are you watching CNN and Fox?  What military adventures?



  I don't know maybe Georgia and the Ukraine could answer that for you and it's not over.


  China not aggressive?  Tell that to Hong Kong and Taiwan and Tibet. And maybe not sending battle ships all over but they are buying up any and everything they can all over Africa and South America and anywhere else they can get into. 

  " Smart money is on China and Moscow for the new century.   Both nations are massively building up gold reserves for a gold-backed currency.  Neither nation is aggressive.   Both are in far better fiscal shape than the USA,  and neither has a long history of International aggressive warfare, sanctions, lies, invasions, etc."



   China has no plans on going into gold backed currency that would stop them from manipulating their currency which has given them the edge in world business.  They want to open up they drop their money value.


  As for the rest are you suggesting that we withdraw from the world and keep to our borders and leave the world to whoever wants it?  This way we don't have to have wars, lie, put on sanctions or invade for any reason at all?
 

Hi John,

There are several fallacies and false assumptions in your argument.

First off using Ukraine as an example (and your only example really) of "Russian Aggression" is not true.  Russia never invaded Ukraine.  Russia has no military presence in Ukraine, no drone strikes, nothing like that at all.    Russia was not aggressive towards Ukraine in the sense that I mean.   Sure, they want influence, maybe even "control....."

But compared to America's interventions in Ukraine, Russia doesn't even come close.    Again, Russia never invaded Ukraine.

On the other hand.....NATO.    It was promised by America to Russia that NATO would not "expand one inch to the East."   Well that was a lie.    Imagine if Russia put troops and missiles in Mexico,  put a puppet in office and tried to block America from building a pipeline?   That never happened!!!   That would be Russian Aggression.    You've got USA and Russia confused, as do many conservatives.

NATO itself is obsolete and has been for a long, long time.   

Now let's shed light on your claim that Russia and China don't trust eachother enough to do oil deals in their own currencies:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-yuan-rouble/china-establishes-yuan-ruble-payment-system-idUSKBN1CH0ML?ref=hvper.com

What matters, in this case, is that Beijing – as well as Moscow – clearly read the writing on the wall when, in 2012, Washington applied pressure on SWIFT; blocked international clearing for every Iranian bank; and froze $100 billion in Iranian assets overseas as well as Tehran’s potential to export oil. In the event that Washington might decide to slap sanctions on China, bank clearing though CIPS works as a de facto sanctions-evading mechanism.

Last March, Russia’s central bank opened its first office in Beijing. Moscow is launching its first $1 billion yuan-denominated government bond sale. Moscow has made it very clear it is committed to a long-term strategy to stop using the US dollar as their primary currency in global trade, moving alongside Beijing towards what could be dubbed a post-Bretton Woods exchange system.

Virtually all commodities must be traded in US dollars, and these petrodollars are recycled into US Treasuries. Through this mechanism, Washington has accumulated an astonishing $20 trillion in debt – and counting.

Vast populations all across MENA (Middle East-Northern Africa) also learned what happened when Iraq’s Saddam Hussein decided to sell oil in euros, or when Muammar Gaddafi planned to issue a pan-African gold dinar.

But now it’s China who’s entering the fray, following through on plans set up way back in 2012. And the name of the game is oil-futures trading priced in yuan, with the yuan fully convertible into gold on the Shanghai and Hong Kong foreign exchange markets.

Trades have already taken place! The fundamentals are clear: this triple win (oil/yuan/gold) completely bypasses the US dollar. The era of the petro-yuan is at hand.

Gold is essential in this strategy. Russia, China, India, Brazil & South Africa are all either large producers or consumers of gold – or both. Following what has been extensively discussed in their summits since the early 2010s, the BRICS countries are bound to focus on trading physical gold.

How long until Saudi Arabia decides to sell oil to its largest customer, China, with this alternative to the Petrodollar?   Iran is ready and willing to sell their oil in this manner as well.  https://www.zerohedge.com/news/very-different-take-iran-barters-food-story

As for Chinese aggression.....when did they invade Hong Kong?   Taiwan?   I must have been watching Trailer Park Boys and smoking weed during those invasions.....can you provide a few links to demonstrate how the Chinese have been aggressive towards HK?    I'll capitulate on Tibet.   

As for your claims that China has no plans for a gold backed currency....just do some research.

The end of the Petrodollar is at hand.   Russia and China are both in FAR BETTER fiscal shape than the USA.

The Bush/Obama/Clinton/Trump policy is to punish and intimidate everyone into using the SWIFT system, which means the petrodollar, which means US Treasuries.    Russia, China, Iran, India and many other nations are looking for a workaround to SWIFT, which means US sanctions will be like a barking Chihuahua behind a fence......because the mechanism is already in place and deals have been done and are being done.

I can go on and on......

As you get to know me----assuming I stick around----you'll find that I make bombastic statements and BACK THEM UP WITH FACTS.

Most conservatives and liberals ignore the facts and soon get right to personal insults and the like.   I'm hoping you don't do that.

So, to summarize:

1.  When was China aggressive?
2.  When was Russia Aggressive
3.  When is the USA not aggressive?
4.  China and Russia are already trading oil in their own currencies
5.  NATO is obsolete and does nothing but drain the treasury and manufacture enemies

Let's limit further discussion to one point at at time.....


  As preparations for the 2008 Olympic Games reached their final stages, so did the 1992 ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia. A series of events which began on August 1 eventually culminated into a five-day war between Georgia, Russia, South Ossetia, and Abkhazia, which has been recognized as the first European war of the 21st century. The war ran from 7-12 August 2008 and ended after Russian President, Dmitri Mendelev, announced the cessation of his “peace enforcement” campaign in Georgia.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/south-ossetia-incident.html


Beset by unrest since a 2014 political uprising ousted former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, Kiev's successor government has accused Moscow of seizing the Crimean Peninsula in a disputed referendum and sponsoring an eastern insurgency. Nearly five years into the conflict, Russian Security Council Secretary Nikolai Patrushev warned Tuesday that Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko's current pro-West strategy could lead to a total dismantling of the state.

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-says-ukraine-no-longer-country-1292632

 n Tuesday – the day El Salvador formally switched its allegiance from Taiwan to China – the Chinese state-run Global Times published an editorial, headlined: “After El Salvador, which country will be next to abandon Taiwan?” and a cartoon with the caption: “Taiwan down to 17 ‘allies’ and counting.”

All of this neatly summarizes the triumphalist mood in (the People’s Republic of China and in some respects, such a reaction is understandable.

  http://www.atimes.com/chinas-aggression-against-taiwan-could-backfire/

  ok Nato can burn.  when has the USA just started a war for no reason good or bad.

Georgia....OK.   First, the conflict was started not by Russia but by Georgia, which foolishly attacked the Russian dependency of South Ossetia. Did Georgia make this suicidal move with prior assurance of American backing? If so, Washington provoked the conflict, which would be as great a crime as the Bush administration lying us into war with Iraq.   If not, and Georgia just thought they could take  on Russia then Russia was not and is not being aggressive here.....they were in fact being defensive, having been attacked by Georgia.   

On to China's aggression in El Salvador.....are you serious?  This is your definition of military aggression?   El Salvador aligned itself with China.   They did that.  How in the world do you see this as evidence of Chinese aggression?   It seems to me to be quite the opposite.

Ukraine:  Who caused the uprising that led to the ouster of Viktor Yanukovych?  The CIA.   After that, it's no wonder the people in Crimea elected via referendum to go back to Russia.   Again, no Russian aggression here....more like cause (CIA meddling in Ukraine) and effect (Russia taking defensive steps to protect itself)

If you call this "aggression" what in the hell do you call the USA's behavior?

Offline Weisshaupt

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5442
Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #476 on: January 17, 2019, 02:44:23 PM »
"If you call this "aggression" what in the hell do you call the USA's behavior?"

Tu Quoque is still a fallacy.
Neither of these two nations possesses the world reserve currency (yet)  so what is the point of arguing over who is worse given one set doesn't have anywhere near the global reach and power of United States,  and no one knows how they will behave if given that sort of power.

What is clear from history is that power corrupts.  No matter how virtuous nor not these countries have been before , it would be expected that with additional power, they will act less virtuously.  Putin was and is thug.. not a stupid man by any means, but I can assure that his dealings on the world stage are not motivated by altruism or benevolence. And China has certainly been rattling sabers..   Suggesting either nation is "virtuous" or not aggressive simply doesn't fit with facts.  That they are probably to be considered less so than the US is probably a result in the disparity of power, not because of purity of motive.
 

 

Online John Florida

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 9035
  • IT'S MY FONT AND I'LL USE IT IF I WANT TO!!
Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #477 on: January 17, 2019, 02:57:55 PM »



" Smart money is on China and Moscow for the new century.   Both nations are massively building up gold reserves for a gold-backed currency.  Neither nation is aggressive.   Both are in far better fiscal shape than the USA,  and neither has a long history of International aggressive warfare, sanctions, lies, invasions, etc."


  I was gonna give you time to settle in but I can't take it.


     Yup were backing out of treaties that do nothing but cost us money and abuse from the other signers. 

   Nato we pay and the rest had to be shamed into it but boy if they have a problem watch how fast the call Daddy for help and support.    Paris accords  I don't think I have to explain it do I.  would you want us to keep those monkeys on their free ride at NATO or stay in the Paris accords?


  You're right we are in debt and how!  Part of that debt is once again giving money to the planet and borrowing it to do it . Thank God we can still pay for it and expand the GDP.

   You thin Russia trusts the Chinese enough to use their money for oil?  China that changes the value of their money at will.  If and when enough Russian oil and gas is sold using Chinese currency China can wipe Russia out financially with the stroke of a pen and never fire a shot.

  Russia's military adventures?  Are you watching CNN and Fox?  What military adventures?



  I don't know maybe Georgia and the Ukraine could answer that for you and it's not over.


  China not aggressive?  Tell that to Hong Kong and Taiwan and Tibet. And maybe not sending battle ships all over but they are buying up any and everything they can all over Africa and South America and anywhere else they can get into. 

  " Smart money is on China and Moscow for the new century.   Both nations are massively building up gold reserves for a gold-backed currency.  Neither nation is aggressive.   Both are in far better fiscal shape than the USA,  and neither has a long history of International aggressive warfare, sanctions, lies, invasions, etc."



   China has no plans on going into gold backed currency that would stop them from manipulating their currency which has given them the edge in world business.  They want to open up they drop their money value.


  As for the rest are you suggesting that we withdraw from the world and keep to our borders and leave the world to whoever wants it?  This way we don't have to have wars, lie, put on sanctions or invade for any reason at all?
 

Hi John,

There are several fallacies and false assumptions in your argument.

First off using Ukraine as an example (and your only example really) of "Russian Aggression" is not true.  Russia never invaded Ukraine.  Russia has no military presence in Ukraine, no drone strikes, nothing like that at all.    Russia was not aggressive towards Ukraine in the sense that I mean.   Sure, they want influence, maybe even "control....."

But compared to America's interventions in Ukraine, Russia doesn't even come close.    Again, Russia never invaded Ukraine.

On the other hand.....NATO.    It was promised by America to Russia that NATO would not "expand one inch to the East."   Well that was a lie.    Imagine if Russia put troops and missiles in Mexico,  put a puppet in office and tried to block America from building a pipeline?   That never happened!!!   That would be Russian Aggression.    You've got USA and Russia confused, as do many conservatives.

NATO itself is obsolete and has been for a long, long time.   

Now let's shed light on your claim that Russia and China don't trust eachother enough to do oil deals in their own currencies:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-yuan-rouble/china-establishes-yuan-ruble-payment-system-idUSKBN1CH0ML?ref=hvper.com

What matters, in this case, is that Beijing – as well as Moscow – clearly read the writing on the wall when, in 2012, Washington applied pressure on SWIFT; blocked international clearing for every Iranian bank; and froze $100 billion in Iranian assets overseas as well as Tehran’s potential to export oil. In the event that Washington might decide to slap sanctions on China, bank clearing though CIPS works as a de facto sanctions-evading mechanism.

Last March, Russia’s central bank opened its first office in Beijing. Moscow is launching its first $1 billion yuan-denominated government bond sale. Moscow has made it very clear it is committed to a long-term strategy to stop using the US dollar as their primary currency in global trade, moving alongside Beijing towards what could be dubbed a post-Bretton Woods exchange system.

Virtually all commodities must be traded in US dollars, and these petrodollars are recycled into US Treasuries. Through this mechanism, Washington has accumulated an astonishing $20 trillion in debt – and counting.

Vast populations all across MENA (Middle East-Northern Africa) also learned what happened when Iraq’s Saddam Hussein decided to sell oil in euros, or when Muammar Gaddafi planned to issue a pan-African gold dinar.

But now it’s China who’s entering the fray, following through on plans set up way back in 2012. And the name of the game is oil-futures trading priced in yuan, with the yuan fully convertible into gold on the Shanghai and Hong Kong foreign exchange markets.

Trades have already taken place! The fundamentals are clear: this triple win (oil/yuan/gold) completely bypasses the US dollar. The era of the petro-yuan is at hand.

Gold is essential in this strategy. Russia, China, India, Brazil & South Africa are all either large producers or consumers of gold – or both. Following what has been extensively discussed in their summits since the early 2010s, the BRICS countries are bound to focus on trading physical gold.

How long until Saudi Arabia decides to sell oil to its largest customer, China, with this alternative to the Petrodollar?   Iran is ready and willing to sell their oil in this manner as well.  https://www.zerohedge.com/news/very-different-take-iran-barters-food-story

As for Chinese aggression.....when did they invade Hong Kong?   Taiwan?   I must have been watching Trailer Park Boys and smoking weed during those invasions.....can you provide a few links to demonstrate how the Chinese have been aggressive towards HK?    I'll capitulate on Tibet.   

As for your claims that China has no plans for a gold backed currency....just do some research.

The end of the Petrodollar is at hand.   Russia and China are both in FAR BETTER fiscal shape than the USA.

The Bush/Obama/Clinton/Trump policy is to punish and intimidate everyone into using the SWIFT system, which means the petrodollar, which means US Treasuries.    Russia, China, Iran, India and many other nations are looking for a workaround to SWIFT, which means US sanctions will be like a barking Chihuahua behind a fence......because the mechanism is already in place and deals have been done and are being done.

I can go on and on......

As you get to know me----assuming I stick around----you'll find that I make bombastic statements and BACK THEM UP WITH FACTS.

Most conservatives and liberals ignore the facts and soon get right to personal insults and the like.   I'm hoping you don't do that.

So, to summarize:

1.  When was China aggressive?
2.  When was Russia Aggressive
3.  When is the USA not aggressive?
4.  China and Russia are already trading oil in their own currencies
5.  NATO is obsolete and does nothing but drain the treasury and manufacture enemies

Let's limit further discussion to one point at at time.....


  As preparations for the 2008 Olympic Games reached their final stages, so did the 1992 ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia. A series of events which began on August 1 eventually culminated into a five-day war between Georgia, Russia, South Ossetia, and Abkhazia, which has been recognized as the first European war of the 21st century. The war ran from 7-12 August 2008 and ended after Russian President, Dmitri Mendelev, announced the cessation of his “peace enforcement” campaign in Georgia.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/south-ossetia-incident.html


Beset by unrest since a 2014 political uprising ousted former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, Kiev's successor government has accused Moscow of seizing the Crimean Peninsula in a disputed referendum and sponsoring an eastern insurgency. Nearly five years into the conflict, Russian Security Council Secretary Nikolai Patrushev warned Tuesday that Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko's current pro-West strategy could lead to a total dismantling of the state.

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-says-ukraine-no-longer-country-1292632

 n Tuesday – the day El Salvador formally switched its allegiance from Taiwan to China – the Chinese state-run Global Times published an editorial, headlined: “After El Salvador, which country will be next to abandon Taiwan?” and a cartoon with the caption: “Taiwan down to 17 ‘allies’ and counting.”

All of this neatly summarizes the triumphalist mood in (the People’s Republic of China and in some respects, such a reaction is understandable.

  http://www.atimes.com/chinas-aggression-against-taiwan-could-backfire/

  ok Nato can burn.  when has the USA just started a war for no reason good or bad.

Georgia....OK.   First, the conflict was started not by Russia but by Georgia, which foolishly attacked the Russian dependency of South Ossetia. Did Georgia make this suicidal move with prior assurance of American backing? If so, Washington provoked the conflict, which would be as great a crime as the Bush administration lying us into war with Iraq.   If not, and Georgia just thought they could take  on Russia then Russia was not and is not being aggressive here.....they were in fact being defensive, having been attacked by Georgia.   

On to China's aggression in El Salvador.....are you serious?  This is your definition of military aggression?   El Salvador aligned itself with China.   They did that.  How in the world do you see this as evidence of Chinese aggression?   It seems to me to be quite the opposite.

Ukraine:  Who caused the uprising that led to the ouster of Viktor Yanukovych?  The CIA.   After that, it's no wonder the people in Crimea elected via referendum to go back to Russia.   Again, no Russian aggression here....more like cause (CIA meddling in Ukraine) and effect (Russia taking defensive steps to protect itself)

If you call this "aggression" what in the hell do you call the USA's behavior?

  Please be kind enough to click the link.
http://www.atimes.com/chinas-aggression-against-taiwan-could-backfire/
  Crimea was part of Ukraine they don't just decide that they are not and not to mention the Russian tanks and artilary at the border making sure the have the upper hand.

  But so far as far as you are concerned the US hasn't done one right thing but Russia and China are up for saint hood.  And no I don't agree with everything we've done.
All men are created equal"
 Filippo Mazzie

DocTrock

  • Guest
Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #478 on: January 17, 2019, 03:35:49 PM »
"If you call this "aggression" what in the hell do you call the USA's behavior?"

Tu Quoque is still a fallacy.
Neither of these two nations possesses the world reserve currency (yet)  so what is the point of arguing over who is worse given one set doesn't have anywhere near the global reach and power of United States,  and no one knows how they will behave if given that sort of power.

What is clear from history is that power corrupts.  No matter how virtuous nor not these countries have been before , it would be expected that with additional power, they will act less virtuously.  Putin was and is thug.. not a stupid man by any means, but I can assure that his dealings on the world stage are not motivated by altruism or benevolence. And China has certainly been rattling sabers..   Suggesting either nation is "virtuous" or not aggressive simply doesn't fit with facts.  That they are probably to be considered less so than the US is probably a result in the disparity of power, not because of purity of motive.

There is no metric that can show China or Russia to be aggressive.   Postulating about how either nation might act if they possessed more power is not the same as a proven track record of aggression.

Also, I'm not suggesting that China or Russia is "virtuous."  Rather, I'm stating that the USA is by far the most aggressive nation and the most indebted nation.   Furthermore, I'm saying that the trend clearly favors China and Russia this century.  Both have far less debt than America,  both are working on a gold-backed alternative to the dollar and neither are wasting their wealth on foreign aggressive warfare all over the globe.  Both feature a growing middle class, improved economies (despite US sanctions) far lower tax rates and much sounder fiscal practices than the USA.   

These facts prove my point.

Nothing I've said isn't 100% factual.   It is also factual that what I'm saying does not fit into the right/left/liberal/conservative political framework.

DocTrock

  • Guest
Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #479 on: January 17, 2019, 03:44:18 PM »

  Please be kind enough to click the link.
http://www.atimes.com/chinas-aggression-against-taiwan-could-backfire/
  Crimea was part of Ukraine they don't just decide that they are not and not to mention the Russian tanks and artilary at the border making sure the have the upper hand.

  But so far as far as you are concerned the US hasn't done one right thing but Russia and China are up for saint hood.  And no I don't agree with everything we've done.

I read all your links.  Thanks for providing them.

Crimea was indeed part of Ukraine.....until the people of Crimea via the democratic process decided to become part of Russia again, as they historically were.   They speak Russian in Crimea.   Always have.   That's not aggressive behavior by Russia.

As for tanks on the border.....it's when they cross the border that aggression occurs.   The USA has tanks near the Mexican border.  Does this mean the USA has invaded Mexico?   If you say "no" than your notion that Russia has been aggressive in Crimea and Ukraine is exposed as baseless.   If you say "yes, this is aggressive behavior, having one's own tanks on one's own soil, near a border" then again......what the hell do you call America's behavior?

Neither Russia or China has invaded anyone.  Neither country has anything close to the number of foreign military bases that the USA has.  Neither spend as much on their military either....mainly because they don't use it for everything from fighting Ebola to supporting ISIS and invading everywhere.