Author Topic: Is the EU Going to Topple?  (Read 104477 times)

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Online patentlymn

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #480 on: January 17, 2019, 03:46:40 PM »
I always tried to look at both sides of an issue but it takes time which I don't always have.
I was always considered a right wing pro American pro military guy, by myself and others and any quiz I took on line.

In the past maybe 10 years I have reached shocking conclusions. I agree with Doc on everything or almost everything. When I realized what we did in Libya I felt almost sick. The fake gas attacks in Syria almost as bad. Ukraine also. The high international finance stuff I do not understand. I choose not to dig into Yemen or Serbia. I do not have time.

IF people have any interest in exploring the other side of some issues, here are some links.
Like Doc said, one issue at a time is better.

Youtube stuff below.
The Duran and RT  Cross Talk.  The Sunday show from The Duran is LONG.
Black Pigeon Speaks and  Way of the World.
ADVChina, SerpentZA, and Laowhy86 have video blogs from China going way back. Recently they have become more negative. Lots of videos from cities, the countryside, etc. They stayed away from political subjects until recently. Almost like travel videos.

UK report on Libya. Details in the report.
https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/foreign-affairs-committee/news-parliament-2015/libya-report-published-16-17/

A book on China I liked. A little dated. China is confusing.
The Party: The Secret World of China’s Communist Rulers Paperback – July 31, 2012
by Richard McGregor  (Author)




From another article on line below. The NAZI item takes explaining and is kinda true.
Other sources of news are suggested for Russia and others.
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/01/theres_more_to_russia_than_meets_the_eye.html
January 15, 2019
There's More to Russia than Meets the Eye
By James V. DeLong
While I have only a concerned citizen's knowledge of foreign affairs, I am baffled by the hysterical Russophobia of the MSM and the Democratic Party since the 2016 election.
...


https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2019/01/08/back-to-ussr-how-to-read-western-news.html
PATRICK ARMSTRONG | 08.01.2019 | WORLD / AMERICAS, EUROPE   | FEATURED STORY
Back to the USSR: How to Read Western News
...
But time moves on and while thirty years ago 50 corporations controlled 90% of the US news media, today it's a not very diverse six. As a result, on many subjects there is a monoview: has any Western news outlet reported, say, these ten true statements?

People in Crimea are pretty happy to be in Russia.
The US and its minions have given an enormous amount of weapons to jihadists.
Elections in Russia reflect popular opinion polling.
There really are a frightening number of well-armed nazis in Ukraine.
Assad is pretty popular in Syria.
The US and its minions smashed Raqqa to bits.
The official Skripal story makes very little sense.
Ukraine is much worse off, by any measurement, now than before Maidan.
Russia actually had several thousand troops in Crimea before Maidan.
There's a documentary that exposes Browder that he keeps people from seeing.

Here are some youtube links
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEOmlPM08A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A37k6HwGwmc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uILsh5CaD2g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJV6kwkV0tc
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #481 on: January 17, 2019, 04:14:03 PM »

There is no metric that can show China or Russia to be aggressive.   Postulating about how either nation might act if they possessed more power is not the same as a proven track record of aggression.

This is a bit like asserting that because few poor people had the opportunity to go to college, then none of them would have gone if given the opportunity to do so..
.
Declaring international waters to be your own personal jurisdiction against international law  is aggressive.  Backing a revolution in the Ukraine is aggressive.
Perhaps not as aggressive as what America has done ( tu quoque again)  but that means its a difference of degree- both have a "track record of aggression" just not a track record as egregious as that of US.  ..

I don't see any track record that demonstrates a difference of intent or an unwillingness to be aggressive - so there is no reason to assume given more opportunity to be so, that more egregious aggression will not follow.


DocTrock

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #482 on: January 17, 2019, 04:19:49 PM »

There is no metric that can show China or Russia to be aggressive.   Postulating about how either nation might act if they possessed more power is not the same as a proven track record of aggression.

This is a bit like asserting that because few poor people had the opportunity to go to college, then none of them would have gone if given the opportunity to do so..
.
Declaring international waters to be your own personal jurisdiction against international law  is aggressive.  Backing a revolution in the Ukraine is aggressive.
Perhaps not as aggressive as what America has done ( tu quoque again)  but that means its a difference of degree- both have a "track record of aggression" just not a track record as egregious as that of US.  ..

I don't see any track record that demonstrates a difference of intent or an unwillingness to be aggressive - so there is no reason to assume given more opportunity to be so, that more egregious aggression will not follow.

Huh?  The USA fomented and "backed" the revolution in Ukraine.  Not Russia.

America has declared the entire planet to be "in our national interest."   This means that Georgia attacking S. Ossetia---both are within the Russian sphere of influence, not America's----is America's business.   Assad using his own troops in his own country is aggression against the USA.....

Pretty much everything anyone does anywhere in the world without explicit permission from the US is seen as an attack on America amongst the liberal/conservative. crowd.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make.  You're certainly not rebutting mine.

DocTrock

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #483 on: January 17, 2019, 04:39:05 PM »


People in Crimea are pretty happy to be in Russia.
The US and its minions have given an enormous amount of weapons to jihadists.
Elections in Russia reflect popular opinion polling.
There really are a frightening number of well-armed nazis in Ukraine.
Assad is pretty popular in Syria.
The US and its minions smashed Raqqa to bits.
The official Skripal story makes very little sense.
Ukraine is much worse off, by any measurement, now than before Maidan.
Russia actually had several thousand troops in Crimea before Maidan.
There's a documentary that exposes Browder that he keeps people from seeing.


Crimea has always been Russian, until recent times when it was part of Ukraine temporarily.  They are indeed happy to be back in Russia!  That's why they overwhelmingly voted in that way.

Indeed, the US armed, trained, advised and fought alongside ISIS.  America and Americans are responsible for slaughtering the oldest Christian communities in the world....which were protected and supported by Assad and which he will protect and support again, now that he has fought off the invading, US-backed forces that have vainly tried to topple his legitimate government.

The "gas attacks" in Syria were false flag operations.   No question about that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A few posts up John from Florida said that "there is no way russia and China will cooperate with their currencies."  paraphrased.   I've proven that wrong.

He also said Russia was aggressive in Georgia, which I also proved wrong. 

As for China being aggressive because El Salvador decided to align with PRC and not Taipei.....this is not aggression at all.   It's an example of diplomacy.

America is a false-front operation: 
You claim to be peaceful....yet you are perpetually at war.   
You claim to be powerful, yet you cannot win a war, no matter who the enemy is.   
You claim to stand for human rights/women's rights and yet you closely ally yourself to Saudi Arabia for 30 pieces of oily silver.
You claim that your "democracy" is the envy of the world....but you must use bullets, missiles, drones and sanctions against everyone who disagrees or won't bow to US pressure.
You claim to stand for free and fair, democratic elections....but if those elections have outcomes that don't match liberal/conservative agendas,  you undermine the will of the people and foment 'regime change' via the CIA.   You did this in Ukraine, Libya, and right here with Trump.   
You claim to have the "moral high ground" and yet the nation is a taxpayor funded abortion mill.

I remember arguing about the Afghan and Iraq wars back in 2008.  I made the statement back then that "America will always be at war, because the neoconservative foreign policy demands it."   I was laughed at by liberal/conservatives back then.....and here we are!  Still at war.  No end in sight.

At what point does a rational person say ENOUGH!  At what point does common sense and facts prevail over propaganda?   

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Back to the EU.  Let's pray it topples and NATO with it.   The future of the human race depends on it. 


Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #484 on: January 17, 2019, 05:05:43 PM »


Committing armed forces to any internal dispute in a foreign land - on the side of the rebelsor on the side of the (then) government would be considered aggressive to the opposing side would it not? Simply because you sympathize with one side or the other doesn't make it a non-aggressive act.

But you seem determined to characterize Russia and China as non-aggressive up till now.  Have at it. As with stocks,  Past performance is not an indication of  future results.  I have complete confidence that the combination of  power and human nature will have the same result as it always has.

Pretty much everything anyone does anywhere in the world without explicit permission from the US is seen as an attack on America amongst the liberal/conservative. crowd.

Yes sure,  because the US has become the defacto world "policeman" - and much US treasure and debt is spent on filling  that role, however poorly...
but if  you think Russia and China will shoulder that task when the US is gone with benevolence and good will, I think you are wrong.

As far as rebuttal - you could start by explaining why Russians backing an internal force withing a country isn't aggression- but the US doing the same is, or china building military bases in international waters isn't aggression, but the proliferation of overseas US military bases is.  OR is aggression simply defined as "anything the United States does"  and "non-aggression" as anything other countries do?


DocTrock

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #485 on: January 17, 2019, 05:32:14 PM »


Committing armed forces to any internal dispute in a foreign land - on the side of the rebelsor on the side of the (then) government would be considered aggressive to the opposing side would it not? Simply because you sympathize with one side or the other doesn't make it a non-aggressive act.

But you seem determined to characterize Russia and China as non-aggressive up till now.  Have at it. As with stocks,  Past performance is not an indication of  future results.  I have complete confidence that the combination of  power and human nature will have the same result as it always has.

Pretty much everything anyone does anywhere in the world without explicit permission from the US is seen as an attack on America amongst the liberal/conservative. crowd.

Yes sure,  because the US has become the defacto world "policeman" - and much US treasure and debt is spent on filling  that role, however poorly...
but if  you think Russia and China will shoulder that task when the US is gone with benevolence and good will, I think you are wrong.

As far as rebuttal - you could start by explaining why Russians backing an internal force withing a country isn't aggression- but the US doing the same is, or china building military bases in international waters isn't aggression, but the proliferation of overseas US military bases is.  OR is aggression simply defined as "anything the United States does"  and "non-aggression" as anything other countries do?

I think we need to define aggression:

When it comes to individuals,  if you attempt to harm my life, liberty or property and you make the first move.....you are the aggressor.   Period.  Self defense is not aggression, rather it is the antidote to aggression.

When it comes to nations,  if any nation attempts to harm the lives, liberty or property of another nation and they make the first move.....that nation is the aggressor.  Period.  Self defense is NOT aggression.   Invasions in order to accomplish "regime change" is quintessential aggression.

The problem we have now is that our words have no permanent meaning anymore.   Iraq was never a threat to America's soil, economy or Americans living in America.  They never had the ability to harm the US on US soil.   Therefore,  the ongoing Iraq war was started by US aggression.  Ditto all the others until we go back to WWII.

Now, let's talk about persuasion.   China persuaded El Salvador to change "allegiance" from Taipei to Beijing.   This is persuasion, not aggression.  Diplomacy and statesmanship should be persuasive and defensive....never aggressive.    Russia persuaded Crimea to come back into the fold.  They did not bomb them in order to win their hearts and minds.....the people voted overwhelmingly to come home.   Again, this is not aggression.

Now, let's look at NATO's expansion Eastward.  An explicit promise made that no such thing would occur....and yet as soon as liberals/conservatives  (LC's from now on) sensed weakness they broke the promise, expanded and then placed missiles on Russia's border!   

I suppose we could claim Russia was aggressive by placing their border so close to NATO military equipment, but it seems more in keeping with rational thought to recognize that the USA/NATO aggression towards Russia has put them on the defensive.  Every time they move to defend themselves,  the presstitute media ( and people here who don't follow events closely) call it "Russian Aggression!"   Nonsense.

The attempt to label Russia's actions with regard to Georgia's aggressive invasion of S. Ossetia is a great example of this.   Historical ignorance, coupled with pressitutes pumping out propaganda causes folks who subscribe to LC doctrine to call Russia's actions aggressive, when in fact they are defensive.

Now, regarding being the world-cop.....there is no indication that either Russia or China would like to take on such a foolish role.  On the other hand, America has not only taken on this role, they see it as their divine right and can't imagine the world working without the US dictating what everyone else can and can't do.

In a violent conflict, there is always someone who aggressed and someone who defended themselves.   Sure, they can switch roles if the conflict carries on long enough.  But the point is the USA is the aggressor all over the globe, while Russia, China, Iran, Syria, Libya and other nations are not.



Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #486 on: January 17, 2019, 06:14:38 PM »
And when one people want to be free of their government and want self determination,  and their government doesn't wish it?
A foreign nation that allies against the people, is the aggressor.
A foreign nation that allies against the government is the aggressor.

Groups of people ( being the general populace, or those in the government)  can claim "self defense" in either case and simultaneously and both be right from their own perspectives. You will have to explain why one perspective is "wrong"

All you seem to have done is define Aggression in terms of self defense, while leaving the term self-defense vague and subject to your own preferences.

  In both cases FORCE is being threatened and applied to achieve an end.  All you are proving is that you want to define aggression based only on your own perspective and whose side you are sympathetic with in any given situation. I don't see a general principle  that determines what can legitimately be called "self defense"  at work here.. other than your own prejudices.

As far as China and Russia not engaging as World's Policemen.. they may not.. and you think that is likely to lead to a more peaceful world, when any strongman with power anywhere in the world perceives no threat from larger powers? And when the people rebel against such a strong man? Are they acting in self defense?  What if Russia/China benefit from that strong man being in power? By backing him , are they acting in "self-defense" - if they wish to remove that strong man because he is not of benefit to them, are they acting in self defense of the people?

Self defense can only have meaning in terms of individual inalienable rights, and neither China nor Russia has a stellar track record in recognizing those.


DocTrock

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #487 on: January 17, 2019, 07:03:58 PM »
And when one people want to be free of their government and want self determination,  and their government doesn't wish it?


All you seem to have done is define Aggression in terms of self defense, while leaving the term self-defense vague and subject to your own preferences.



Self defense can only have meaning in terms of individual inalienable rights, and neither China nor Russia has a stellar track record in recognizing those.

If the government is taking life, liberty or property from its people without due process of law, then the government is the aggressor and the people have a right to defend themselves.   That's easy to understand.  Such an understanding used to be a foundational principle in your country.

As for me leaving the term "self defense" vague  I must disagree.  I've defined aggression clearly.   Self defense comprises an action taken to repel aggression and recover stolen life, liberty and property.  Easy.  How can you possibly not understand this?

As for this sentence:  ""Self defense can only have meaning in terms of individual inalienable rights, and neither China nor Russia has a stellar track record in recognizing those.""  I am in 100% agreement with you here.   

Offline John Florida

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #488 on: January 17, 2019, 07:16:56 PM »

  Please be kind enough to click the link.
http://www.atimes.com/chinas-aggression-against-taiwan-could-backfire/
  Crimea was part of Ukraine they don't just decide that they are not and not to mention the Russian tanks and artilary at the border making sure the have the upper hand.

  But so far as far as you are concerned the US hasn't done one right thing but Russia and China are up for saint hood.  And no I don't agree with everything we've done.

I read all your links.  Thanks for providing them.

Crimea was indeed part of Ukraine.....until the people of Crimea via the democratic process decided to become part of Russia again, as they historically were.   They speak Russian in Crimea.   Always have.   That's not aggressive behavior by Russia.

As for tanks on the border.....it's when they cross the border that aggression occurs.   The USA has tanks near the Mexican border.  Does this mean the USA has invaded Mexico?   If you say "no" than your notion that Russia has been aggressive in Crimea and Ukraine is exposed as baseless.   If you say "yes, this is aggressive behavior, having one's own tanks on one's own soil, near a border" then again......what the hell do you call America's behavior?

Neither Russia or China has invaded anyone.  Neither country has anything close to the number of foreign military bases that the USA has.  Neither spend as much on their military either....mainly because they don't use it for everything from fighting Ebola to supporting ISIS and invading everywhere.


  So now what get rid of the military?  Cab you tell me anything that the military has done right?
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Online patentlymn

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #489 on: January 17, 2019, 07:35:45 PM »

  Please be kind enough to click the link.
http://www.atimes.com/chinas-aggression-against-taiwan-could-backfire/
  Crimea was part of Ukraine they don't just decide that they are not and not to mention the Russian tanks and artilary at the border making sure the have the upper hand.

  But so far as far as you are concerned the US hasn't done one right thing but Russia and China are up for saint hood.  And no I don't agree with everything we've done.

I read all your links.  Thanks for providing them.

Crimea was indeed part of Ukraine.....until the people of Crimea via the democratic process decided to become part of Russia again, as they historically were.   They speak Russian in Crimea.   Always have.   That's not aggressive behavior by Russia.

As for tanks on the border.....it's when they cross the border that aggression occurs.   The USA has tanks near the Mexican border.  Does this mean the USA has invaded Mexico?   If you say "no" than your notion that Russia has been aggressive in Crimea and Ukraine is exposed as baseless.   If you say "yes, this is aggressive behavior, having one's own tanks on one's own soil, near a border" then again......what the hell do you call America's behavior?

Neither Russia or China has invaded anyone.  Neither country has anything close to the number of foreign military bases that the USA has.  Neither spend as much on their military either....mainly because they don't use it for everything from fighting Ebola to supporting ISIS and invading everywhere.


  So now what get rid of the military?  Cab you tell me anything that the military has done right?
The US military does not get to pick where they go. The politicians do that. Even then the military is bound by rules of engagement decided by politicians. IMO the military does a lot of things right or as best they can.  Their job is to break things and kill people.

It would be nice if the navy would stop colliding with commerical ships but even that may be partly determined by political girl friendly directives from politicians.

When NATO moved East after the USSR fell apart I saw that as agression.

I think China may come up with their own version of the Monroe Doctrine and that will suck.
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

DocTrock

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #490 on: January 17, 2019, 08:50:23 PM »


  So now what get rid of the military?  Cab you tell me anything that the military has done right?

When did I suggest such a thing as getting rid of the military?   Never, that's when.  Why say such a thing?

The American military is the most expensive, best paid, military in the history of the world.   It's taken 18 years, but the fight against the Taliban is almost over....and the Taliban won.    Why?

1.  Nature of the mission
2.  Leadership (or lack thereof in this case)
3.  Philosophy on the nature of warfare.   The USA is PC to the extreme.

The military hasn't fought a defensive-morally correct war since WWII.     It isn't being used properly.   This is a political problem, not a problem with the military.

If America used its armed forces for defense of American soil and not to meddle and mind others business, playing cop/mafia/opium farmer "over there" the entire world would be much better off.  Christians in the MidEast would still have their ancient churches, not to mention their lives.   Americans would still be welcome around the world.     We would all be much better off!

So, I've never suggested, intimated or bandied about the very stupid idea of "getting rid" of the military.   I wonder why you said such a thing?    How about America stops trying to dominate and subjugate the world using the military and economic sanctions?  How about the military is used to protect the US from invasion?   

This is a sincere question:  Are you more loyal to your military than to liberty?

Offline John Florida

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #491 on: January 17, 2019, 09:19:00 PM »
  All you've done is bitch about wars bases and aggression.  btw you never mentioned the Taiwan link.  Why are you so much better at military strategy than the military.
All men are created equal"
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Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #492 on: January 17, 2019, 09:40:23 PM »
This is a sincere question:  Do you walk to school or carry your lunch?

DocTrock

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #493 on: January 17, 2019, 09:47:02 PM »
  All you've done is bitch about wars bases and aggression.  btw you never mentioned the Taiwan link.  Why are you so much better at military str ategy than the military.

Wars are worth bitching about.

What is it in the Taiwan link that I need to understand?  You used it to demonstrate how aggressive the Chinese are.   I've already touched on that.   I think you confuse aggression with persuasion.   Or perhaps you assign persuasion to USA and aggression to everyone the USA attacks.  That's how Mitt Romney and John McCain used to think....American exceptionalism and the like.   

Also, in addition to bitching I've also answered all your questions, countered the points you tried to make about China, Russia etc.  and I looked at all your links.   Did you read mine?   

Do you remember when you said, " You thin Russia trusts the Chinese enough to use their money for oil?  China that changes the value of their money at will.  If and when enough Russian oil and gas is sold using Chinese currency China can wipe Russia out financially with the stroke of a pen and never fire a shot."?

It's funny, you said that as if you knew all about Russia and China and money and oil and I didn't.   But the reality of the situation is that Russia and China have already done oil deals in RMB.   Russia is happy to sell it to them and China is happy to pay, both without using the Petrodollar.   China hasn't "wiped out" Russia.  On the contrary, the nations are closer than they've ever been.

The links I provided proved you wrong.  Dead wrong.   And yet there's no sign of you admitting the truth.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 09:56:48 PM by DocTrock »

Offline John Florida

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #494 on: January 18, 2019, 07:48:15 AM »
  All you've done is bitch about wars bases and aggression.  btw you never mentioned the Taiwan link.  Why are you so much better at military str ategy than the military.

Wars are worth bitching about.

What is it in the Taiwan link that I need to understand?  You used it to demonstrate how aggressive the Chinese are.   I've already touched on that.   I think you confuse aggression with persuasion.   Or perhaps you assign persuasion to USA and aggression to everyone the USA attacks.  That's how Mitt Romney and John McCain used to think....American exceptionalism and the like.   

Also, in addition to bitching I've also answered all your questions, countered the points you tried to make about China, Russia etc.  and I looked at all your links.   Did you read mine?   

Do you remember when you said, " You thin Russia trusts the Chinese enough to use their money for oil?  China that changes the value of their money at will.  If and when enough Russian oil and gas is sold using Chinese currency China can wipe Russia out financially with the stroke of a pen and never fire a shot."?

It's funny, you said that as if you knew all about Russia and China and money and oil and I didn't.   But the reality of the situation is that Russia and China have already done oil deals in RMB.   Russia is happy to sell it to them and China is happy to pay, both without using the Petrodollar.   China hasn't "wiped out" Russia.  On the contrary, the nations are closer than they've ever been.

The links I provided proved you wrong.  Dead wrong.   And yet there's no sign of you admitting the truth.



  You seem to see sanctions as aggression when the US does it and persuasion when China or Russia does it's pressure and is pressure in whatever form . 

  China Russia oil deals are one thing but Russia only dealing with Chinese currency from the rest of the planet is when they have replaced the dollar till then it's petrodollars .  What you know or I know has nothing to do with anything it's how we see it is completely different or what you thin and I thin is where we differ.

  Whose truth? yours or mine.

  BTW Russia /Afghanistan was just pressure not war.
All men are created equal"
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Offline Libertas

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #495 on: January 18, 2019, 08:07:56 AM »
Doc not only likes the Putin punch...I think he asked for and got the recipe and likes sharing it.

Everything Doc writes does fit the progressive debate template to a "T".  Ignore reality that doesn't fit your chosen dogma...like Russia never invaded et al...make assertions and ignore and attack, ask for proof and offer none. 

Yes, the irregular forces, the spies...those are all baseless accusations of the corrupt warmongering Americans!  Blah blah blah.  Y'all are making the same mistake people make with progressives...thinking that logic, reason and facts means something to true-believers, they are merely things to manipulate, ignore or attack.

There is no objectivity in people this driven by dogma...it is the same BS I slap people down with on Zerohedge all the time.

This BS that (primarily) Russia and (secondarily) China are the standard bearers of truth, justice and liberty and all others are evil...or just merely worse and deserving the status of world enemy.

When one can claim the atrocities committed by Russia (even post-Soviet, though Ukraine and former Soviet satellites have direct history to Soviet actions...and the continued link to Russia...which in history was always by force and will be so forevermore), China, Iran, Syria and Libya do not exist and no matter what America is more evil nah nah nah nah nah nah...you have to realize you are trying to reason with the same kind of mindset that believes despite overwhelming evidence that the Holocaust was a myth, lies by Jews and Jew sympathizers.

And this is easily proven, I do it all the time at Zerohedge.

When pressed some extreme Russophiles will admit that the American people are not the enemy, but the American government and the good 'ol MIC and their Jew masters are...but then go on to equate every anti-American argument as if there is no difference...and more importantly, many of them do not care.  Their extremism is easily proven when challenged about Trump.  Trump is the trap that snares them and destroys their imagined impartiality and mythical objectivity!  Trump, the ultimate outsider who achieved where St. Ron Paul failed, where H. Ross Perot failed and where the useful idiot rogue John McCain failed...he bulldozed the Republican Establishment and secured the GOP nomination, he campaigned as an outsider and made the presstitutes and Clinton his bitches...and then the Demonazi/DeepState/MFM coup plan goes into effect when the unthinkable happens and the outsider wins the Presidency!  The American people and the Russophiles never had a better leader in place to start dismantling the DeepState apparatus from within than with this President.  And what do they do to support him?  Not a goddamend thing.  In fact most go on to demonize him just as the progressives demonize him!  You want America to GTFO out of NATO?  You want America out of Syria?  Apparently not, your actions ONLY SERVE THE DEEPSTATE!

People like this enrage me even worse than the goddamned progressives and muzzies.  At least progs and muzzies are honest with themselves...and even let it slip out here and there to confirm it to people too stupid to figure it out otherwise.  But people who should know better and act better acting all morally and intellectually superior backstabbing the only allies they could ever have?  Yeah, they can all go screw themselves.

Y'all can do what you want, arguing with cult-like true believers in fantasyland is something I'll pass on.

No offense Doc, but I think you're full of sh*t.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 08:14:11 AM by Libertas »
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #496 on: January 18, 2019, 08:46:34 AM »

If the government is taking life, liberty or property from its people without due process of law, then the government is the aggressor and the people have a right to defend themselves.

So Putin's support for Al Assad in Syria.. supported for the purposes of maintaining the Black Sea military base there, where Human rights violations had been recorded on a regular basis since the 60s and certainly  against the Arab Spring forces,  must qualify as Russian Aggression,  since it certainly isn't force used in self defense to protect the rights of individuals.

Yes, I am sure you will simply assert something else was going on there, and yes other things were going on- as they are at all points in history. Which is why such simple and juvenile categorizations are often not terribly helpful. The world is not black and white, and this good guy/bad guy narrative you are spinning is absurd. No one has clean hands - and China and Russia have been aggressors  in some ways, and acting in self defense in others - often within the same context and situation.  Claiming otherwise is intellectually dishonest.  Groups of people act for all sorts of different motives.  Some in the Arab spring ( on both sides )  were undoubtedly acting to advance the cause of liberty and stability and rule of law ..  others were acting to simply to become the new oppressors.  This is why justice is an act upon an individual and not a group.  Individuals  don't act in perfect concert of approval or from the same motives.

I have no idea why the good guy/bad guy narrative is so important for you to maintain or what primary position it holds in your world view,  but it simply isn't the case that China and Russia have NEVER  been the aggressors ( which by your own statement above admits is acting against the liberties of individuals) since even their  OWN CITIZENS can't  enjoy protection of life, liberty or property or the  due process of law - those governments  are aggressors within their own borders- and yet you seem to be asserting that protecting such principles guides their actions internationally in foreign lands.

Human behavior is complex, motives are never pure in an individuals and never consistent across a group, and adopting a worldview that accounts for that would probably help you develop a better model of the world you inhabit.

DocTrock

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #497 on: January 18, 2019, 09:42:42 AM »
Until you folks get to know me better, let me just clarify a few things:

Ad hominem/personal attacks are not something I do.   I always view such things as a sign of weakness and when I hear them It's because the debate is over.....the target of the attacks has won.    That would be me, in this case.

Calling me a progressive is laughable.   I'm as far from that end of the political spectrum as can be; I'm much less progressive than any liberal/conservative.

Take comfort in this, liberal/conservatives:  The Status Quo is here to stay until there is spectacular collapse.   You'll have your wars, you'll be able to pretend you're the policeman of the world,your taxes, your regulations and oh my.....you'll have your debt.   Indeed, you'll have your spectacular national debt.

Trump is outspending Obama, who outspent Bush, who outspent Clinton, ad infinitum.    You'll have your big government and you'll lament the fact that republicans aren't in full control of it all the time, as if it matters.

So, to recap:

I've shown that Russia and China.....who will be the ascendant nations in the 21st century are not nearly as aggressive and bent on world domination as the Neoconservative folks and presstitutes tell us.   I've shown that recent history of events as repeated on the TV is false.

I've reminded you that America is a false-front operation.

And I've backed up my statements with easily provable facts.   

I'll end with this: 

1.  If Russia and China are aggressive.....what the hell do you call US behavior?
2.  If the US is so great, why are so many other nations working night and day to topple SWIFT and the Petrodollar?   
3.  If Russia is so evil,  explain why they are protecting Christians in the ME from Jihadists.
4.  If America is so great, explain why they are arming, training and advising Jihadists who slaughter Christians in the ME.

Now, let's all pray that the EU crashes and burns and people regain a tad of power over their governments.  Let's also pray that NATO goes away too. 




Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #498 on: January 18, 2019, 10:07:02 AM »
Quote
Until you folks get to know me better, let me just clarify a few things:

This presupposes that we would want to get to know you better. The jury is still out on that.

We're not a closed community here, but we are a close knit community. We like and encourage more voices but I doubt that a single one of us are interested in being lectured to or browbeat. Now I recognize that you may not think that is what you are doing. I hope that this is the case because (if true) I believe that you can modify your approach and we can overcome it.

If however, your sole intent is to "win" arguments then enjoy your victory - it may be fleeting.

Welcome to IAL.

Offline John Florida

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #499 on: January 18, 2019, 10:22:27 AM »
Until you folks get to know me better, let me just clarify a few things:

Ad hominem/personal attacks are not something I do.   I always view such things as a sign of weakness and when I hear them It's because the debate is over.....the target of the attacks has won.    That would be me, in this case.

Calling me a progressive is laughable.   I'm as far from that end of the political spectrum as can be; I'm much less progressive than any liberal/conservative.

Take comfort in this, liberal/conservatives:  The Status Quo is here to stay until there is spectacular collapse.   You'll have your wars, you'll be able to pretend you're the policeman of the world,your taxes, your regulations and oh my.....you'll have your debt.   Indeed, you'll have your spectacular national debt.

Trump is outspending Obama, who outspent Bush, who outspent Clinton, ad infinitum.    You'll have your big government and you'll lament the fact that republicans aren't in full control of it all the time, as if it matters.

So, to recap:

I've shown that Russia and China.....who will be the ascendant nations in the 21st century are not nearly as aggressive and bent on world domination as the Neoconservative folks and presstitutes tell us.   I've shown that recent history of events as repeated on the TV is false.

I've reminded you that America is a false-front operation.

And I've backed up my statements with easily provable facts.   

I'll end with this: 

1.  If Russia and China are aggressive.....what the hell do you call US behavior?
2.  If the US is so great, why are so many other nations working night and day to topple SWIFT and the Petrodollar?   
3.  If Russia is so evil,  explain why they are protecting Christians in the ME from Jihadists.
4.  If America is so great, explain why they are arming, training and advising Jihadists who slaughter Christians in the ME.

Now, let's all pray that the EU crashes and burns and people regain a tad of power over their governments.  Let's also pray that NATO goes away too.


  I haven't attacked you personally so I hope that wasn't for me.  I never said we were not aggressive but it's a rough world is it takes aggression so be it.  EU is crashing as we speak IE France is on fire and Brexit so lets hope it happens soon.

  NATO can go to hell as The U.N. can go to hell with them. They need us more than we need them.

  But to hear you tell it I have not shown you anything or you choose to ignore it.

 
All men are created equal"
 Filippo Mazzie