Author Topic: Is the EU Going to Topple?  (Read 104403 times)

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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #500 on: January 18, 2019, 10:53:53 AM »
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1.  If Russia and China are aggressive.....what the hell do you call US behavior?
Aggressive sometimes, and self-defensive others, and often at the same time, just like Russia and China and any other nation that engages with others internationally.  That is the world you live in -  The law of the Jungle is the rule unless people agree it isn't - and internationally -  there is no such agreement - which is part of the reason the US acts as it does.  Without such a "policeman" there would be, for instance,  far more nuclear proliferation.  Humans are naturally aggressive. Humans will respond to incentives and disincentives provided.  Humans will typically act in their own self interest to the deteriment of the outsider. If you don't know these things,  welcome to earth.

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2.  If the US is so great, why are so many other nations working night and day to topple SWIFT and the Petrodollar?
Because its obvious to everyone US debt is unsustainable. Who here do you think is arguing for the US being "so great" or blameless?  We are all very well aware of her faults, the problems with the debt,  the abuse of the world currency,  and that often our politicians are not acting in the best interests of the nation or of its people, much less upholding any principles that we hold dear.
   
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3.  If Russia is so evil,  explain why they are protecting Christians in the ME from Jihadists.
Because right now the powers that be in that nation  feel it is in their best interests to do so,  which may or may not be  in the best interests of the Nation or those affected..(for what its worth Putin seems to act far more consistently for the benefit of Russia than American politicians act for the benefit of America, but this is largely because one US party is a cabal actively attempting to destroy the nation, and the other a  controlled opposition to ensure that nothing is overturned when the first is out of power. See Cloward-Piven. If that means its a "false front" operation in your terms, then sure. ) 


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4.  If America is so great, explain why they are arming, training and advising Jihadists who slaughter Christians in the ME.
Because right now the powers that be in that nation feel it is in their best interests to do so,  which may or may not be  in the best interests of the Nation or those affected. Someone who was paying attention might have noticed the Untied  States is approaching a Civil war because of such things. You seem blissfully ignorant of our internal  US politics. I suspect this is because you see Nations via an identitarian lens, and don't want to deal with the messy fact that they are  conglomerations of individuals - often with opposing agendas and viewpoints. Much easier to slap a label on them and suggest that are all the same.

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I've shown that Russia and China.....who will be the ascendant nations in the 21st century are not nearly as aggressive and bent on world domination as the Neoconservative folks and presstitutes tell us

No you really haven't shown that. In fact you have admitted that they act aggressively and with an intent to dominate towards their own people. In order to demonstrate this postulation  you would have to show that they have had the power and ability to act as the United States  does  and have refrained from using that power. And they don't have that power, because they don't have the reserve currency or anywhere near the economic and military reach.  Past performance is no proof here of future performance under different circumstances.  You might was well claim Sears  or AP super markets will always  be a dominant player in the United States Economy because they were at one point.  Circumstances change, and actions and motivations will change with them. Its Axiomatic that power corrupts, so as the power of Russia and China increase, the incentives to use that power increase and the disincentives decrease. Refusing to address this fact will not make it any less true.

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I'm as far from that end of the political spectrum as can be; I'm much less progressive than any liberal/conservative.

Okay so drop your labels and open the box to show us what is inside.. define your position and where you fall on a political axis -  Collectivist vs. individualist?  Socially? Economically?  Or define your own axis and demonstrate how your position is as far from the liberal/conservative positions in America as possible.

You seem the sort that will refuse to define what positions you actually hold, as that would limit your trolling ability. Am I right?

 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 11:04:42 AM by Weisshaupt »

Offline Libertas

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #501 on: January 18, 2019, 11:24:37 AM »
Doc Doesn't Answer hasn't answered my challenge, so in Doc-like fashion I declare myself the winner and he the loser...hey, this subjective authoritarian style of debate is fun!  Thanks Doc, I am learning from the best!



 ::hat-tip::

« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 11:28:47 AM by Libertas »
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

DocTrock

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #502 on: January 18, 2019, 12:02:40 PM »

Okay so drop your labels and open the box to show us what is inside.. define your position and where you fall on a political axis -  Collectivist vs. individualist?  Socially? Economically?  Or define your own axis and demonstrate how your position is as far from the liberal/conservative positions in America as possible.

You seem the sort that will refuse to define what positions you actually hold, as that would limit your trolling ability. Am I right?

I'm Anarcho-Capitalist/individualist politically speaking.   Socially I'm personally quite conservative although I believe public policy should be libertarian so that people can make up their own minds about what they want to do.   Economically: laissez-faire Capitalism all the way.

I reject the welfare/warfare (liberal) state and equally reject the Warfare/Welfare state (conservative.)


DocTrock

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #503 on: January 18, 2019, 12:03:25 PM »
Doc Doesn't Answer hasn't answered my challenge, so in Doc-like fashion I declare myself the winner and he the loser...hey, this subjective authoritarian style of debate is fun!  Thanks Doc, I am learning from the best!



I apologize for not anwering your "challenge."  What is your challenge?  I'll certainly answer it.

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #504 on: January 18, 2019, 12:25:39 PM »
Anarcho-Capitalist/individualist politically speaking.
I reject the welfare/warfare (liberal) state and equally reject the Warfare/Welfare state (conservative.)

Oh look, undefined labels. Couldn't see that coming.
Try opening the box and start defining what each of those terms means to you in terms of principles, ideology and policy.


DocTrock

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #505 on: January 18, 2019, 01:11:12 PM »
Anarcho-Capitalist/individualist politically speaking.
I reject the welfare/warfare (liberal) state and equally reject the Warfare/Welfare state (conservative.)

Oh look, undefined labels. Couldn't see that coming.
Try opening the box and start defining what each of those terms means to you in terms of principles, ideology and policy.

uhh.....just because you don't know what something means doesn't mean it is undefined.   In such cases it usually means the person demanding "labeling" is dishonest and no matter what the other person might say they won't have it.....and it can mean ignorance.  Usually---not always--- it is both.

Anarchy means something.....so does Capitalism.  Imagine melding the two together......not so hard is it?

Principles:  Individual liberty, private property,  sound (real) money,  free markets,  anti-state.
Ideology:  mixed in with principles....but it could be summed up as the Non-Aggression Principle applied to all aspects of life......Non-Interventionism is another way to describe it.
Policy: Dismantle everything.  Bring the troops home.  Legalize everything except aggression.   Government's responsibility is LIMITED to:

Court system,  weights/measures,  records, national DEFENSE.

I won't ask you to define conservatism.....too messy and ethereal. 

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #506 on: January 18, 2019, 01:22:02 PM »
Anarcho-Capitalist/individualist politically speaking.
I reject the welfare/warfare (liberal) state and equally reject the Warfare/Welfare state (conservative.)

Oh look, undefined labels. Couldn't see that coming.
Try opening the box and start defining what each of those terms means to you in terms of principles, ideology and policy.

uhh.....just because you don't know what something means doesn't mean it is undefined.   In such cases it usually means the person demanding "labeling" is dishonest and no matter what the other person might say they won't have it.....and it can mean ignorance.  Usually---not always--- it is both.

Anarchy means something.....so does Capitalism.  Imagine melding the two together......not so hard is it?

Principles:  Individual liberty, private property,  sound (real) money,  free markets,  anti-state.
Ideology:  mixed in with principles....but it could be summed up as the Non-Aggression Principle applied to all aspects of life......Non-Interventionism is another way to describe it.
Policy: Dismantle everything.  Bring the troops home.  Legalize everything except aggression.   Government's responsibility is LIMITED to:

Court system,  weights/measures,  records, national DEFENSE.

I won't ask you to define conservatism.....too messy and ethereal.

Just because you use terms, doesn't mean you are using them correctly. I want to know what you mean by them.
You said conservatism/liberalism was the opposite end of the spectrum from you - it is not incumbent for you to describe what  that axis is based upon since it is your assertion?





DocTrock

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #507 on: January 18, 2019, 01:29:48 PM »
Anarcho-Capitalist/individualist politically speaking.
I reject the welfare/warfare (liberal) state and equally reject the Warfare/Welfare state (conservative.)

Oh look, undefined labels. Couldn't see that coming.
Try opening the box and start defining what each of those terms means to you in terms of principles, ideology and policy.

uhh.....just because you don't know what something means doesn't mean it is undefined.   In such cases it usually means the person demanding "labeling" is dishonest and no matter what the other person might say they won't have it.....and it can mean ignorance.  Usually---not always--- it is both.

Anarchy means something.....so does Capitalism.  Imagine melding the two together......not so hard is it?

Principles:  Individual liberty, private property,  sound (real) money,  free markets,  anti-state.
Ideology:  mixed in with principles....but it could be summed up as the Non-Aggression Principle applied to all aspects of life......Non-Interventionism is another way to describe it.
Policy: Dismantle everything.  Bring the troops home.  Legalize everything except aggression.   Government's responsibility is LIMITED to:

Court system,  weights/measures,  records, national DEFENSE.

I won't ask you to define conservatism.....too messy and ethereal.

Just because you use terms, doesn't mean you are using them correctly. I want to know what you mean by them.
You said conservatism/liberalism was the opposite end of the spectrum from you - it is not incumbent for you to describe what  that axis is based upon since it is your assertion?

Just because you don't know what a term means doesn't mean I'm not using them correctly.   I want to know what you think I mean by the term "capitalist."   Silly game.....yours.

Liberal/conservative is:

1. Statist
2. Interventionist
3. Collectivist
4. Central planning

I'm anti-state,  Non-interventionist, individualist and Laissez-faire.   (LOL, your spell check wants to correct to "bouillabaisse.")

Many people can see how being Statist is opposite Anti-state.  Can you?

Again, I answer your questions directly and succinctly.  Will you do the same if I ask one?

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #508 on: January 18, 2019, 02:05:47 PM »
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Liberal/conservative is:

1. Statist
2. Interventionist
3. Collectivist
4. Central planning

More undefined terms but fine , I will tell you what I think they mean, shall I?

Liberal and conservative are diametrical opposites in the context of the United States.  Conservatives in the States ( not to be confused with Republicans who are a controlled opposition party) are trying to conserve the original Republic - and are therefore anti-statist, anti-central-planning and anti collectivist , whereas the "liberals" ( not to be confused with classical liberals)   are statist (as in the State is the supreme arbiter) , collectivist (as in the community comes before the individual)  and pro-central planning ( as in the government "plans" the economy)

Economic Interventionism  is of course hand in hand with central planning,

And you think that is using the terms correctly? Certainly not as the terms are used in the United States

but since you  didn't provide any context - assuming I am telepathic or something, I rather suspect this last  refers to your naive view that a country can simply become isolationist and dis-involve themselves from any conflicts. The early American founders tried that - and oddly - the other world powers didn't go along with it.  Its almost like stronger powers will mess with weaker powers, because they can.  Oh right,  that is because that is exactly what happens..

And if you ignore such things too long, it will come back to bite you. Or is it your opinion the United States should not  have intervened in WWI or WWII? After all it was a purely European problem wasn't it? Yes. Until it isn't and V2s with Nukes are raining down on North America. But maybe that wouldn't have happened? No one can see the future, so no one can really say if a policy is interventionist or not -- should they consult you first before acting? You seem to consider yourself an authority on such matters.

 If you are isolationist you are also cutting yourself off from world trade , and if you aren't ,  then at some point, the dictator you made the trade deal with is threatened by other powers.. as the many proxy wars the United States had with the USSR during the cold war can attest.

You can go live in your ideal world where that isn't the case if you like,  but one ignores reality at their peril. SO if looking out for what appears to be in the best interests of a nation is intervention ,  then sure - that is probably a facet of both Liberalism and Conservatism in the United States ( but a liberal and a conservative would have wildly different ideas about what constitutes the best interests of the nation)   However the reason it is an element of both is because its a necessary fact of life. It is the reason Russia is in involved in Syria at all. It is the reason any nation ever gets involved in the affiars of another.. because trade , or strategic concerns are weighed into the decisions.
 Ignoring such concerns will ensure that your nation won't exist for long enough for anything else to be of concern.

DocTrock

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #509 on: January 18, 2019, 03:15:56 PM »
Quote
Liberal/conservative is:

1. Statist
2. Interventionist
3. Collectivist
4. Central planning

More undefined terms but fine , I will tell you what I think they mean, shall I?

Liberal and conservative are diametrical opposites in the context of the United States.  Conservatives in the States ( not to be confused with Republicans who are a controlled opposition party) are trying to conserve the original Republic - and are therefore anti-statist, anti-central-planning and anti collectivist , whereas the "liberals" ( not to be confused with classical liberals)   are statist (as in the State is the supreme arbiter) , collectivist (as in the community comes before the individual)  and pro-central planning ( as in the government "plans" the economy)



The rest of your post was you assigning positions to me that I do not hold.   Isolationism is NOT Non-interventionism.   The current policy of the USA, supported by liberal/conservatives is Isolationism.    We're not even supposed to talk with Russian, Iranians, etc.   We're to isolate them via sanctions, embargoes, etc.    That is Isolationism in practice....but you call it something else.

Conservatives in the USA march in lockstep with liberals.   They are not opposites at all.    More like right and left wheels of the same wheelbarrow.

Liberals want deficit spending, massive government, military intervention, and government control over all aspects of life.
Conservatives also want deficit spending, massive government....etc.   

The only difference is who is in control,  (R) or (D).   

Conservatives are also completely detached from reality, much more so than Liberals.  Conservatives imagine that a guy like Paul Ryan is a "fiscal hawk," or that Republicans will overturn Roe v Wade, etc.   They also have a false belief that conservatives want to shrink government.

There is zero proof for these beliefs, as every republican/conservative politician has increased spending,  not overturned Roe v Wade,  increased the size and power of government and the like.

Your claim that liberals and conservatives are diametrically opposed is totally detached from reality.  There has never been a single instance of any conservative anywhere doing anything remotely conservative, the way you seem to define it.

You choose to deny reality with your labels.   I incorporate reality in mine, which is a big difference between us.

I'll not fight for the charade,  finance it, applaud it or make excuses.   How about you?  Are you going to enable the United State to continue down the path to ruin?   

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #510 on: January 18, 2019, 05:39:56 PM »
Most of us here consider ourselves "conservative" and hold none of those positions.
As Already explained the so-called "Conservative party"  in America  is controlled opposition for the Democrats, so I can see why an uneducated and ignorant outsider might see Republicans as representing conservatives or  being in lock step with Democrats and not realize that has nothing at all to do with being an American conservative. But hey, you obviously aren't interested in being educated on this are you?

Read the previous posts in the forum.  We don't call the Republicans the stupid party for nothing. We don't want deficit spending. We don't think Paul Ryan is a fiscal hawk. We know full well the Republican party  doesn't represent the interests of conservative people . And we know full well that Republicans never overturn anything - I HAVE ALREADY SAID SO.  However, the tenacity and entrenched nature of the two party system  means we can currently either split the vote, letting the Democrats win or vote for the lesser evil and put in a Republican who will probably slow (but never stop) the bleed.  But I guess you don't understand that you can only choose from the choices  you get, and in reality - since Republicans are a branch of the Democrat party, we don't really get a choice - other than to buy firearms and wait for the inevitable.

But Obviously you  feel you  know better than I do  what I and others here  think and believe  and better than I do what those terms mean, in reality,   in my own country. To me they are just labels, and your labels aren't going to modify reality in the slightest. 
If it makes you feel good to define these terms  in this way, then go ahead but you are misusing them in this context and they do not commonly denote the meanings you are ascribing to them.
But then I guess shouldn't expect you to use words according to their common meanings  , as you also appear to  think Wheel barrows commonly have 2 wheels.

You may now have the last word if you wish it.  I'm done.




« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 08:11:21 AM by Weisshaupt »

DocTrock

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #511 on: January 19, 2019, 10:36:35 AM »
However, the tenacity and entrenched nature of the two party system  means we can currently either split the vote, letting the Democrats win or vote for the lesser evil and put in a Republican who will probably slow (but never stop) the bleed.  But I guess you don't understand that you can only choose from the choices  you get, and in reality - since Republicans are a branch of the Democrat party, we don't really get a choice - other than to buy firearms and wait for the inevitable.



I concede to you the wheelbarrow example.   I should have said cart.  Mea Culpa.

So.....you're voting for Republicans and you claim they slow the bleed.

If that were remotely true, I might have voted for a republican.   Can you give an example of a republican administration or congress that slowed the bleed?   

According to reality,  they've only sped it up.....

Offline John Florida

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #512 on: January 19, 2019, 11:39:57 AM »
However, the tenacity and entrenched nature of the two party system  means we can currently either split the vote, letting the Democrats win or vote for the lesser evil and put in a Republican who will probably slow (but never stop) the bleed.  But I guess you don't understand that you can only choose from the choices  you get, and in reality - since Republicans are a branch of the Democrat party, we don't really get a choice - other than to buy firearms and wait for the inevitable.



I concede to you the wheelbarrow example.   I should have said cart.  Mea Culpa.

So.....you're voting for Republicans and you claim they slow the bleed.

If that were remotely true, I might have voted for a republican.   Can you give an example of a republican administration or congress that slowed the bleed?   

According to reality,  they've only sped it up.....


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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #513 on: January 19, 2019, 01:13:51 PM »
I don't believe he/she/it voted  or if they did, probably did so and illegally  for a Democrat because since they are probably overstaying a VISA or never obtained one.. .  They sure don't see themselves as American

Quote
America is a false-front operation:
You claim to be peaceful....yet you are perp
etually at war.   
You claim to be powerful, yet you cannot win a war, no matter who the enemy is.   
You claim to stand for human rights/women's rights and yet you closely ally yourself to Saudi Arabia for 30 pieces of oily silver.
You claim that your "democracy" is the envy of the world....but you must use bullets, missiles, drones and sanctions against everyone who disagrees or won't bow to US pressure.
You claim to stand for free and fair, democratic elections....but if those elections have outcomes that don't match liberal/conservative agendas,  you undermine the will of the people and foment 'regime change' via the CIA.   You did this in Ukraine, Libya, and right here with Trump.


What is for sure and positive is that they can't look up and read simple charts, and prefers to troll instead. .




Not that it matters because entitlement programs are the main drivers anyway , Democrats passed a doozy of a new one with ACA, ,and since that spending is mandatory and a third rail,  neither party can do much to affect it -- which is something else someone who actually was actually an informed American would know. Problem doesn't even know Congress is responsible to submit and pass a  budget (except , you know all of those years when Democrats didn't)  The guy is just some paid foreign troll - probably followed someone back here from Zerohedge.  ( I am looking at you Libertas  ::rockethrow:: )
 I don't even think he has much of an agenda beyond stating "America is Bad."   I expect Orange Man Bad will be next.  After all that was an illegal regime change apparently - aided  I guess with  collusion with Putin.. but wait is that aggression or  self defense on Putin's part \?  I am so confused. Its like this guy has no internal consistency to his "arguments" . Troll.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 10:13:33 AM by Weisshaupt »

Offline Libertas

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #514 on: January 20, 2019, 10:46:34 AM »
Yes Weisshaupt, he's a troll...

I don't know if I should admire your patience or be exasperated by it.   ;)

His self-negating positions and circling arguments are the hallmarks of a dogmatic mind.

It's easy to be righteous when you know you are right.



The righteous don't have to justify their righteousness to anyone.

I see these types at Zerohedge all the time.  People incapable of a depth of thought capable of seeing the gradations of corruption and complicity in all societies...and I mean all societies...because unlike them picking winners and losers is a micro thing not a macro thing.  It's why their statements are so consistently inconsistent and illogical.  And like most of these types they bristle at having their beliefs pinned down...God-forbid people really know what they believe!  It is because they embody the pack-mentality of our distant ancestors...the same pack mentality embraced by the more ruthless and vicious criminal organizations on the planet.  Worse than mob rule...that's for the dregs at the bottom...they want to live as thug royalty.

No wonder they get tingle up the leg while admiring the Rus...closest thing on the planet to their ideal society. 

The greater the wealth and power, the more freedom.  Might makes right.

Well, the fate of such is simple too...in anarchy nobody is expected to give a damn what happens to you...I'm already there.



Hang in there...you got yourself in that bind...you can get yourself out.

Maybe something interesting is on RT while you wait.

We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline AlanS

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #515 on: January 20, 2019, 04:07:45 PM »

Conservatives are also completely detached from reality, much more so than Liberals.  Conservatives imagine that a guy like Paul Ryan is a "fiscal hawk," or that Republicans will overturn Roe v Wade, etc.   They also have a false belief that conservatives want to shrink government.

There is zero proof for these beliefs, as every republican/conservative politician has increased spending,  not overturned Roe v Wade,  increased the size and power of government and the like.

Your claim that liberals and conservatives are diametrically opposed is totally detached from reality.  There has never been a single instance of any conservative anywhere doing anything remotely conservative, the way you seem to define it.

You choose to deny reality with your labels.   I incorporate reality in mine, which is a big difference between us.

I'll not fight for the charade,  finance it, applaud it or make excuses.   How about you?  Are you going to enable the United State to continue down the path to ruin?   

I'm late to this party as I don't regularly visit this thread. But it appears I haven't miss much.
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."

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Offline Libertas

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #516 on: January 20, 2019, 04:22:28 PM »
Recap -

Doc will not answer me, Weisshaupt, JF...nobody.  Just wants to lecture from above until we agree he is correct about everything.

Could tease some more...let you carry on with it if you like?

I would ask:  What does the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the annexation of Crimea and the Russian presence in Syria all have in common?  There is only one correct and honest answer and I bet it will not be properly answered.

 ::stirpot::
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #517 on: January 20, 2019, 06:59:01 PM »
What does the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the annexation of Crimea and the Russian presence in Syria all have in common? 




They are all Examples of Russian's acting in self defense of themselves or others? I especially love how they are saving those poor Syrians from their despotic ruler.

Wait? Waht is that you say?
Al Assad is the despotic ruler?

Well at least they are cozying up Al Assad for oil and not those other dictators  in Saudi Arabia.

What? No , its not the same thing! Its different when the Russians do it. Because...
shut up, you American liberal/conservative meany.

Offline Libertas

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #518 on: January 21, 2019, 06:49:45 AM »
Kitteh has exited the bag.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline John Florida

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #519 on: January 21, 2019, 09:31:05 AM »
  Where is he/she/it ?  Suddenly quiet.
All men are created equal"
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