Author Topic: Is the EU Going to Topple?  (Read 104548 times)

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Offline Libertas

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #180 on: May 09, 2012, 09:53:27 PM »
Once the inflation really hits Greece we'll see a whole new level of riots in the streets.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Libertas

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #181 on: May 10, 2012, 06:46:45 AM »
Oh, and add grotesque unemployment to the mix!

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/greeces-jobless-soar-42-unemployment-rises-record-industrial-collapse-accelerates

Ah yes, nothing like hoards of angry unemployed youths on the streets with nothing to do!

Could be a banner year for national socialists, get used to seeing this all over Greece -



And Germany gets to find out if there is such a thing as infinity...


H/T - ZeroHedge
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/europes-most-parabolic-chart-goes-probolic-er
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline BMG

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #182 on: May 11, 2012, 09:39:55 AM »
Return of the drachma!

Quote
Banks are quietly readying themselves to start trading a new Greek currency. Some banks never erased the drachma from their systems after Greece adopted the euro more than a decade ago and would be ready at the flick of a switch if its debt problems forced it to bring back national banknotes and coins.

Wonder how much longer it will be before we see similar stories about the Lira, Mark, Franc, etc...

And then there's this:

LINK

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The Spanish government has told banks they must increase their provisions against property loans from 7pc to 30pc, meaning they must raise another €30bn.

And this:

LINK

Since this is a Yahoo article I'll cut & paste the whole thing...

Quote
EU predicts 0.3 per cent eurozone economic contraction in 2012, says bloc in 'mild recession'
The Canadian Press
By Pan Pylas, Raf Casert, The Associated Press
The Canadian Press – 1 hour 51 minutes ago

     EU Commissioner for the Economy Olli Rehn gestures as he addresses the media on the spring economic forecast at the European Commission headquarters in Brussels, Friday May 11, 2012. (AP Photo/Geert Vanden Wijngaert)

    EU Commissioner for the Economy Olli Rehn gestures as he addresses the media on the …

BRUSSELS - The European Union estimates that the economy of the 17 countries that use the euro is in recession in the wake of a debt crisis that has prompted savage spending cuts and a jump in unemployment to record highs.

The European Commission, the executive arm of the EU, forecasts that the eurozone economy will contract by 0.3 per cent in 2012 and grow by 1 per cent next year. Its prediction for 2012 is far weaker than the one it gave last November, when it predicted growth of 0.5 per cent. A year ago it was predicting growth of 1.8 per cent.

Friday's forecasts provide clear evidence of the impact of Europe's debt crisis on the eurozone economy over the past year as governments have struggled to introduce deficit-reduction measures and business and consumer confidence has taken a dive.

Olli Rehn, the EU's monetary affairs chief, said the recession is likely to be "mild" and "short-lived".

A recession is commonly defined as two consecutive quarters of negative growth and figures next week are expected to show that the eurozone contracted by a quarterly rate of 0.2 per cent for the second quarter running.

Rehn insisted a "recovery is in sight" but urged member countries not to give up on their efforts to get their public finances back into shape. However, he did indicate that more could be done to give growth a boost.

"Sound public finances are the condition for lasting growth, and building on the new strong framework for economic governance, we must support the adjustment by accelerating stability and growth-enhancing policies," said Rehn.

How to get the faltering eurozone economy growing again has become the hot topic in European policymaking circles over the past few weeks. Sunday's presidential election victory by Francois Hollande was due in large part to his promotion of the need for a greater focus on growth in Europe. So far, austerity measures, such as cuts to wages and pensions as well as tax rises, have been the main policy response to too much government debt in a number of eurozone countries.

In Greece, the epicenter of Europe's debt crisis, elections on Sunday illustrated the level of anger against the austerity that's been imposed on the country. Greece is in its fifth year of recession and has record-high unemployment with more than one of two young people out of work.

The Commission laid out the prospect of another grim year ahead. It's forecasting a 4.7 per cent economic contraction in Greece to follow 2011's 6.9 per cent. However, it said the Greek economy should flatline after that on the assumption of unchanged policies.

With a second round of elections appearing likely in Greece next month, there are concerns that the country may not meet its commitments to international creditors and that its bailout may be halted, putting its future in the euro under severe threat.

Greece has enacted a raft of austerity measures over the past few years in the hope of getting a handle on its borrowings. Some progress is being made on the public finances front but the country is still in a parlous situation. The Commission predicts that the Greek budget deficit will narrow to 7.3 per cent of national income this year. Though down from last year's 9.1 per cent, the level of borrowing is still double the 3 per cent limit that was supposedly enshrined in euro membership.

Just chronicling the obvious...
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 09:44:42 AM by BMG »
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.” 
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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #183 on: May 11, 2012, 11:08:40 AM »
Url=http://www.zerohedge.com/news/visualizing-europes-ponzi-patriotism]Ponzi Patriotism: When all foreign investment leaves your country and your own government buys up those investments and keeps inflating them[/url]

Offline BMG

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #184 on: May 13, 2012, 08:40:51 PM »
LINK

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Greek withdrawal “is not necessarily fatal, but it is not attractive,” European Central Bank Governing Council member Patrick Honohan said in Tallinn on May 12. An exit was “technically” possible yet would damage the euro, he said. German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble reiterated in an interview in Sueddeutsche Zeitung that member states seeking to hold the line on austerity for Greece could not force the country to stay.

LINK

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"We will be in wild bankruptcy, out-of-control bankruptcy. The state will not be able to pay salaries and pensions. This is not recognised by the citizens. We have got until June before we run out of money.

"We have been spending the future for half a century. What [the anti-bailout forces] are really asking from the EU is not just to pay our bills, but also to pay for the deficit which we are still creating.

"I'm sure the Germans don't want Greece to leave the euro. What I don't know is how much they're willing to pay. It depends on the German man on the street. Is he willing to pay his taxes to save Greece? I doubt it."


LINK

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Greek political leaders on Sunday ignored a final plea from the president to form a coalition government to avert a repeat election, pushing the debt-stricken nation closer to bankruptcy and a possible exit from the euro zone.

LINK

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Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives suffered a crushing defeat on Sunday in an election in Germany's most populous state, a result which could embolden the left opposition to step up its criticism of her European austerity policies.

LINK

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LONDON, May 13 (Reuters) - Worsening financial and political turmoil in southern Europe caused a surge of interest in London property last month with buyers from Greece and Spain showing strongly among investors seeking a safe haven for their money.

The number of Greeks searching for homes costing more than 1.5 million pounds ($2.4 million) on the website of property agent Savills jumped 39 percent in April compared with the average of the preceding six months, the company said.

"The reason Greeks are coming is very simple," said Dinos Joannou, a 65-year-old Cypriot who works in the Athenian Grocery in the Bayswater district of London and has seen growing numbers arrive this year. "Greece is screwed, there are no jobs and it has been run by crooks."

LINK

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The situation in the euro zone has become so bleak that it is giving rise to the most improbable rumours. The latest to make the rounds of European hedge fund managers suggests that the euro will be tied to the dollar at close to parity, a dramatic fall from its current level of just under $1.30 and one that would involve the printing of hundreds of billions of euros.

Just updating the thread - seems a lot is happening pretty fast this weekend.
 
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.” 
- Patrick Henry

"The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates."
- Tacitus

Offline BMG

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #185 on: May 13, 2012, 08:47:53 PM »
Eurozone: If Greece goes ...

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The idea of a Greek exit from the eurozone is no longer fanciful. After 70 per cent of voters in elections on May 6 supported parties that rejected the terms under which €174bn of international bailout loans were offered to Athens, many investors now see a fissure in the 17-member eurozone as increasingly likely. European governments are furiously thinking through the various scenarios, while still urging Athens to stick to its agreements on austerity and reform. If those hopes are dashed and Greece goes, what happens next?

Quote
Can the eurozone contain the contagion?

This is the biggest unknown. If the eurozone authorities could persuade investors and the public that Greece was a special case, the effects of an exit could be contained. If not, a Greek exit would soon become a disorderly break-up of the euro project.

The inevitable question after a departure is: “Who’s next?” Eyes would turn rapidly to Portugal, which followed Greece into the bailout club. Investors would sell Portuguese bonds, seek to extract money from the country’s banks and take euros across the border for fear of an exit and devaluation. Currency risk has been evident in the European banking system since late last year, but the incentives to move deposits into German banks from those in Portugal, Ireland, Spain and Italy would be clear.

If the political will to hold the single currency together exists, the eurozone has a big weapon in its arsenal to contain the contagion: unlimited action by the ECB. It could restart bond-buying at very high levels to limit rises in sovereign bond yields and offer unlimited liquidity to peripheral-nation banks to offset a run on deposits. This would worry Berlin, which feels the ECB has already gone too far in underwriting bank and sovereign debt in peripheral countries. But the alternative is worse, as the EU has no other sufficiently powerful defence against a systematic bank run in such nations.

The answer, therefore, is that the eurozone could limit contagion, but it is highly uncertain whether it would. If it did not, the end of the euro would be nigh.

In either case, the outlook for the European economy is highly risky. After the Lehman collapse in 2008, it was not a dearth of bank lending that plunged the region into its worst recession since the second world war, but a collapse in confidence and spending as households and companies decided simultaneously to tighten their belts in fear of what might happen next. Unless the European authorities are extremely skilful in ringfencing Greece, a similar scenario would be a severe danger.

So this is what I got from this article. It looks like one of three things is about to happen (seemingly sometime between now and the end of the year):

A) The EU collapses and the world economy steps back into the dark ages.
                           OR
B) The EU is separated from Greece one way or another and the world economy steps one foot back into the dark ages which is most likely to end up at A above a short while later.
                           OR
C) Greece is somehow convinced that the EU isn't going to forgive all their past debts AND allow them to stop with all their austerity AND allow them to remain in the EU (which is what the Greek voters seem to believe is going to happen right now) and they immediately go back to their previously prescribed austerity measures from before their last vote.

Essentially it looks to me like things are EXCEEDINGLY wobbly in the EU after last week's leftist incursions into various European governments and collapse is all but guaranteed at this point.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 08:57:16 PM by BMG »
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.” 
- Patrick Henry

"The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates."
- Tacitus

Offline Libertas

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #186 on: May 14, 2012, 06:35:59 AM »
Regarding Greece, interesting take here -

So here is the 3-point plan:

1. Renounce all debts denominated in the euro, i.e. a 100% writedown.

2. Accept the U.S. dollar as the national currency of Greece.

3. Engage in a transparent national dialog and reach a consensus about taxation and the role of the state in the Greek society and economy.

We might add a fourth point: renounce scams and kicking problems down the road rather than addressing them directly, sweeping dysfunction under the rug, etc.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-crazy-idea-might-just-work-greeces-new-currency-us-dollar

I think the first two points could be called the "Nuclear Option"...the only reason to do #2 is because you just told the EU to go screw itself, but #3 and #4 have no chance...starting over from scratch the socialists will just fire up the free-spending merry-go-round...but who will lend to them?  Also, since American banks are also in on this scam we would not be immune from the effects of all that bad paper going up in smoke.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #188 on: May 14, 2012, 05:17:20 PM »

Germany was correct when it said Greece should sell some
of its islands.  They should be cut off and if American bankers,
Jamie Dimon comes to mind, are involved in this let the first
money come from their pockets till they are empty then the
board's money.  That would stop American bankers doing dopey
deals.


Offline Libertas

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #189 on: May 15, 2012, 07:15:46 AM »
Corrupt politicans and corrupt private sector bosses who sold their shareholders , bondholders and customers down the river...

There ought to be trials and executions...

But Soros, Corzine & Falcone are still walking unimpeded and breathing free air, right?

Same for all the rotten politicians the world over too, eh?

But there will only be more corruption, more lies, more abuse...

...until the SHTF...then it will be BITS.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #190 on: May 15, 2012, 07:17:10 AM »
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/must-see-greece-explained-one-picture

Obama is aiming for this picture...



...but it is not certain he will be able to control it!
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline BMG

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #191 on: May 15, 2012, 07:38:56 AM »
LINK

Quote
Attempts to form a new government in Athens have been thwarted for the past nine days, although the country’s president will meet all major parties this afternoon to discuss the forming of a “technocratic” administration rather than a coalition.

An outgoing Greek minister warned that the country could descend into “civil war” amid the chaos of a euro exit. “If Greece cannot meet its obligations and serve its debt the pain will be great,” Michalis Chrysohoidis was quoted as telling a local radio station. “What will prevail are armed gangs with Kalashnikovs and which one has the greatest number of Kalashnikovs will count … we will end up in civil war.”

Coming soon to a country near you...


Quote
“The British recovery has been damaged over the last two years not by Britain getting a grip on its public finances but by uncertainty in the eurozone. It is that uncertainty, not austerity, that is doing the real damage to the European recovery, and indeed the British recovery.”

This is pretty funny to me. It is well known that socialists breed uncertainty in any market. These people apparently know that too judging by this quote. And yet, they continue to follow socialist ideals. They want uncertainty, but then complain about all the uncertainty they've created! Rich!
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.” 
- Patrick Henry

"The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates."
- Tacitus

Offline Libertas

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #192 on: May 15, 2012, 08:45:19 AM »
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline BMG

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #193 on: May 15, 2012, 09:00:17 AM »
Wow. Just finished reading some of the comments at that Zerohedge link Libertas. Talk about a bunch of anti-Semitic, hate-spewing jerks over there. That site seems to have it's fair share of them! Yikes!

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.” 
- Patrick Henry

"The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates."
- Tacitus

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #194 on: May 15, 2012, 09:21:31 AM »
Wow. Just finished reading some of the comments at that Zerohedge link Libertas. Talk about a bunch of anti-Semitic, hate-spewing jerks over there. That site seems to have it's fair share of them! Yikes!



Amazing how some hatreds just never die.  Wonder if those same people would turn right around and call me intolerant for standing against gay "marriage".
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #195 on: May 15, 2012, 09:45:20 AM »
Wow. Just finished reading some of the comments at that Zerohedge link Libertas. Talk about a bunch of anti-Semitic, hate-spewing jerks over there. That site seems to have it's fair share of them! Yikes!

The Comments at Zero-hedge are a huge snark-fest. They are often entertaining, and in some cases impart more information than the article itself.

The nice thing about Zero-hedge is that it does seem to attract all types.. and from all over the world- often giving you a much broader perspective on how events are being perceived in different places and cultures.  Antisemitism is common in Europe - thousands of years of  Jews being the more successful "other" have ensured that. That particular article brought out that characteristic more violently than I have seen it before.

You also have a large contingent of Ron Paulbots, Gold Bugs, Anti-Corporate OWS types, Alex Jones adherents and a bunch of people who like to push the buttons of the preceding groups.   

Offline BMG

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #196 on: May 15, 2012, 09:54:30 AM »
That's just the thing Pan. Leftism is a ideology that espouses tolerance, etc but certainly does not practice it. It espouses it so that it looks good. And then when the leftist is later noted as advocating the death of their opponents the hypocrisy is rarely pointed out and even more rare is it that if pointed out, anything is ever made of it.

Meanwhile, when a conservative voices their opposition to something like homosexuality they are immediately branded with the 'Hitler' descriptor and said to want to 'murder all the gays'. When in fact, the conservative simply says they don't like it and won't support it.

How people can support an ideology that does this sort of thing is beyond me to even contemplate. It is so prevalent and so obvious that it seems a very lame notion to attribute a lack of 'paying attention to the issues' as the reasoning behind the misguided support. A blind man can see this happening it is so obvious. How people can think that others support this ideology simply because they aren't paying attention doesn't ring true to me. I think it is a matter of 'going along to get along' learned through generations of indoctrination and not simply a matter of 'not paying attention to the issues'.

If that is correct then I don't think it can be overcome.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.” 
- Patrick Henry

"The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates."
- Tacitus

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #197 on: May 15, 2012, 10:31:46 AM »
I think it is a matter of 'going along to get along' learned through generations of indoctrination and not simply a matter of 'not paying attention to the issues'.

No, its deeper than that - these people derive their self-worth from believing as they believe. Their teachers made it clear to them that if you are a good person if you vote Democrat, and a bad person if you don't. They were never taught how to pay attention to the issues or how to think for themselves - they have an ingrained, Pavlovian response to politics - because the Democrats have been marketed to them since they were children. Unicorns and skittles have been associated with the Democrats and the Nazis and Hilter are the embodiment of the political right. They  don't think about it any more than they think about buying Coke vs. Pepsi, making that decision on who's ads make them feel best about themselves.

MichelleO took the daughter to a Girl Scout meeting last night.  The other moms were discussing the impending budget cuts at the elementary  school - The principal is threatening to not have enough desks for the children and requiring Class sizes of over 37 next year. The other moms had no clue as to why.. after all there was money in previous years! None of them understood that unemployment meant less income  tax revenue. None of them understood that falling house values meant falling mill levy revenues. Non of them could connect the dots on their own, and were all for a Mill Levy Tax increase that the County is proposing -as if that would have no effect on them at all - its all of those evil retired old people in the county who don't want their real estate taxes raised! (no I didn't make that up)   Could that be because they are on  fixed incomes and inflation is killing them? 



They will only start trying to pay attention when the reality of the situation affects them personally - like when their kid sits on the floor during school, and then their response will be to demand even more of what they don't pay for, never once stopping to think about what they are doing, or if it is right or moral.  They are all 5 year old children. They want and they take. They aren't "trying to get along" because they have never once learned to feel empathy for others. They have no clue others are out there, and they certainly don't care what effects their actions may have on them.  No "Its for the Children!" a phase that has as much meaning to them as "I'd like to buy the  world a coke"  - its just said by rote- sheep bleating to other sheep - "Hey I am a sheep!" , "Hey, I am a Sheep too!", "I feel happy being together as sheep!", "So do I!"

If they actually cared about their children they would realize that all hope for a prosperous  future for their children is about to vanish. And they will cancel Music! And "Outdoor Lab!"  Its a good thing I wasn't there because I would have told them flat out - "You voted for Democrats, they over promised on pensions to teachers and you have no money because the retired teachers are still paid near a full salary and other benefits - for doing nothing.  You have condemned your children to grow up in a 3rd world country, where they will be lucking if they learn to read and write - much less get access to "outdoor labs" and Music lessons.  If you cared about your children at all you would have spent a minute and asked yourself how you can consume more than you produce without being a drain on everyone and everything around you. You worry about preserving the planet because it strokes your pathetic little egos, and you never once thought about preserving the system that brought peace and prosperity to America - and instead you vote to change it,  impoverish your children, and destroy their futures, because you are too selfish and too stupid to know there is no free lunch. "

MichelleO doesn't let me out much.


Online Pandora

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #198 on: May 15, 2012, 10:56:05 AM »
Quote
MichelleO doesn't let me out much.

I can see why; you're just plain mean.

 ::)

We're dealing with the same thing here as far as school budgets.  The first thing cut is teachers -- no union -- never the many of the admin.  We've been living here and paying property taxes for almost twenty years and never had a child in the schools, but there is no time I've voiced a negative opinion of any or all of the issue that I haven't gotten a nasty lecture on the importance of "education".   ::SNORT::

I believe that's part of what's going on with your "Looter Mawms", Weisshaupt.  They've been thoroughly indoctrinated in the virtues of mo' mo' mo' money for "education" so dot-connection is far less important than appearing to be "for" the "right things".  What could be more important for the future of our country than proper education of its citizens.  Why, these children will grow up and become the doctors, lawyers, and indian chiefs on which YOU will depend.

Needless to say, as to the ones who do become productive members of society, even wealthy ones, the "Mawms" will be the first to decry their "greed".
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

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Re: Is the EU Going to Topple?
« Reply #199 on: May 15, 2012, 11:44:55 AM »
And while I'm on the subject, a pet peeve:

If I could, I would MAKE people stop calling mothers, "mawms".  "Mom" is what a kid calls his mother; why the HELL would a mother want to refer to herself as "a mom".  What the hell is a mom, anyway?  Say it often enough, mommommommommom, and it stops sounding like a real word, which it isn't anyhow; it's a slangy word that marginalizes and diminishes the meaning of Mother.

/rant off
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"