Topic: The "entitlement" dilemma

[Glock32]

The same article is posted at the OC Register. One of the commenters there summarized the Western predicament more succinctly than I've been able to:

Western, Judeo-Christian thought and organization in a few hundred years built the the most tolerant, prosperous, and generous societies in human history, but now the looters, alleging imperfection in the system they can't build themselves, sense weakness and opportunity. With "leaders" like Obama, why wouldn't they?

And as Pandora says, THERE. IS. NO. MONEY. Steyn's article hits that exact point:

I see that recent polls supposedly show that huge majorities of Americans don't want any modifications to Medicare or Social Security. So what? It doesn't matter what you "want." The country's broke, and you can vote yourself unsustainable quantities of government lollipops all you like, but all you're doing is ensuring that when, eventually, you're obliged to reacquaint yourself with reality, the shock will be far more devastating and convulsive.

I'm definitely getting sick of seeing polls and "man on the street" segments about what people want. It's time for real adults to step forward and say "It doesn't matter what you want, this is what we have." Or, to the point, what we don't have. I still can't believe that in just a few generations we're managing to completely flush down the toilet centuries of Western evolution. Self-indulgence is our civilization's fatal flaw, and I rate misplaced sentimentality (such as "they just want a better life" defenses of mass immigration) as a form of self-indulgence. It's moral vanity. And it's destroying our entire civilization.

[charlesoakwood]

We are not broke, we are not bankrupt.  We have more than money, we have the value of invention, creation, perseverance, production, and manufacturing.  

What we do not have is leadership that is willing to turn it loose.
Just as GWB constrained our DOGS in the middle-east  our  "strange shrunken spectator who serves as President of the United States" is stripping and abusing the US of all its hallowed glory while spending 7 trillion dollars to boot.  

There are serious problems and they need to be addressed. Politicians today think they are going for the soft target and that remains to be seen.  They can create the biggest immoral legacy in our history. They can eviscerate SS, breach the contract with the elderly and show themselves a fraud, and America will still go broke.

It will go broke from the special interest entitlement groups that pay nothing and take more and more each election, this includes all the bureaucrat acronyms. It will go broke because of the yoke on our necks that is choking to death the very things that enabled America to be the Shining City on the Hill.
These are the ramparts of Communism, not SS, and until they are breached America will continue its downward spiral.  

 




 

[Pandora]

We are not broke, we are not bankrupt.  We have more than money, we have the value of invention, creation, perseverance, production, and manufacturing.

Bless you, Charles, that you believe that.  The young people have been stifled and zero-toleranced and gun-controlled to the point where I fear for the retention of any sense of adventure or invention.  

Our manufacturing base has left the building, taking production with it.  

What we do not have is leadership that is willing to turn it loose.

Yes.  They took what didn't belong to them and claimed it off-limits to its rightful owners.

Just as GWB constrained our DOGS in the middle-east  our  "strange shrunken spectator who serves as President of the United States" is stripping and abusing the US of all its hallowed glory while spending 7 trillion dollars to boot.  

There are serious problems and they need to be addressed. Politicians today think they are going for the soft target and that remains to be seen.  They can create the biggest immoral legacy in our history. They can eviscerate SS, breach the contract with the elderly and show themselves a fraud, and America will still go broke.

It will go broke from the special interest entitlement groups that pay nothing and take more and more each election, this includes all the bureaucrat acronyms. It will go broke because of the yoke on our necks that is choking to death the very things that enabled America to be the Shining City on the Hill.
These are the ramparts of Communism, not SS, and until they are breached America will continue its downward spiral.

I for one am glad that SS is finally to be strangled.  Such a thing should never have been allowed to exist in the land of the free.

[charlesoakwood]

You're glad it's going to be strangled.  You advocate just cutting people who are enrolled in SS to be cut loose, set free from any ties of support from this society?

They younger one's have not been stripped of sense of adventure, they are frustrated, unrestrained they will turn into massive adventurers.

And manufacturing is not gone, we just don't make simple crap we export that.  We invent it, we design it, we improve it. We make it.
When they give manufacturing numbers they are down for sure. How many less auto workers, that's a big number. How many high tech manufacturing jobs have left? Where did the high tech manufacturing go and what is it?  All the manufacturing jobs that have left the nation are "operator" or assembler" jobs.

This we can't crap is an excuse for politicians lack of courage to release us from bondage or those who want us bound.

[Pandora]

You're glad it's going to be strangled.  You advocate just cutting people who are enrolled in SS to be cut loose, set free from any ties of support from this society?

This pisses you off every time I espouse this opinion, but it isn't merely an opinion, Charles; it's a real bill coming due.  No, of course I don't advocate just cutting people off - those "people" would include my parents - but the coming crash will guarantee an end to enslaving future generations in the bullsht as well as hanging the people to whom we've made promises.  And they had no right, despite being assured of same, to assume "ties of support from this society".  We are NOT a collective, goddamit.

They younger one's have not been stripped of sense of adventure, they are frustrated, unrestrained they will turn into massive adventurers.

I dunno.  Cut people off long enough from their own sense of adventure and creativity and it dies, murdered in its infancy.

And manufacturing is not gone, we just don't make simple crap we export that.  We invent it, we design it, we improve it. We make it.

Again, I don't know.  I hope you're right.
 

When they give manufacturing numbers they are down for sure. How many less auto workers, that's a big number. How many high tech manufacturing jobs have left? Where did the high tech manufacturing go and what is it?  All the manufacturing jobs that have left the nation are "operator" or assembler" jobs.

This we can't crap is an excuse for politicians lack of courage to release us from bondage or those who want us bound.

I know from experience that people told often enough they "can't", even as in, "no, you may not", hear "you can't" and come to believe they cannot.

[charlesoakwood]

There is not going to be a crash.  The only reason we have a crash is because the pols will not cut everything.

http://www.lifenews.com/2011/03/04/obama-would-veto-spending-bill-de-funding-planned-parenthood/

President Barack Obama would veto the House-approved long-term spending bill for the federal government that contains the Pence Amendment, a measure that would de-fund the Planned Parenthood abortion business.

They start cutting this and the 99 other pieces of garbage and acronyms and I and the other gazillion OF's will accept they are trying.  Until then they are merely cashing a paycheck like the rest of the whores.

I know from experience that people told often enough they "can't", even as in, "no, you may not", hear "you can't" and come to believe they cannot.

This is the saddest and worst part and it must be rebuffed and illustrated wrong at every opportunity.

[rickl]

I see that recent polls supposedly show that huge majorities of Americans don't want any modifications to Medicare or Social Security. So what? It doesn't matter what you "want." The country's broke, and you can vote yourself unsustainable quantities of government lollipops all you like, but all you're doing is ensuring that when, eventually, you're obliged to reacquaint yourself with reality, the shock will be far more devastating and convulsive.

Well said.  Karl Denninger has been shouting that from the rooftops for about three years now.

[Pandora]

There is not going to be a crash.  The only reason we have a crash is because the pols will not cut everything.

And, since the pols will not cut everything ?  What happens next, hmm?

[Pandora]

There is not going to be a crash.  The only reason we have a crash is because the pols will not cut everything.

And, since the pols will not cut everything ?  What happens next, hmm?


THERE. IS. NO. MONEY.  

[trapeze]

Yes, sorry to disagree with you Charles but SS does need to be cut off.  The eligibility age needs to be rolled back a few more years and there needs to be a date certain put on the program's death.  

Cut off those already dependent on it?  No.  Means test the current recipients and kill it off as soon as possible.

I am close enough to that age now that I receive AARP junk mail and, knowing what I know, paying attention to what has always gone on with SS, being able to do basic math...I have always believed that I would never see a dime of my "contributions."  There is no trust fund.  There is no "lock box" and there never has been.

Our debt is now an existential threat to our country and to our freedom.  SS (and Medicare and Medicaid) is the biggest part of our debt and its perpetual growth.  There are only two ways to deal with existential threats:  Ignore them (not take them seriously) and perish or destroy them regardless of the collateral damage and live to fight on.

I prefer life.

[rickl]

I'm 53, so I've been paying into SS and Medicare for over 30 years.  Nevertheless, I realize that they need to go away.  They are unsustainable.  I've been saying for years that I would happily write off the money I've already paid if only they would quit taking it out of my paycheck.

Some provision must be made for people who are already retired, but it's starting to look like that choice will be made for us, by bankruptcy.

[Pandora]

I'm 53, so I've been paying into SS and Medicare for over 30 years.  Nevertheless, I realize that they need to go away.  They are unsustainable.  I've been saying for years that I would happily write off the money I've already paid if only they would quit taking it out of my paycheck.

Some provision must be made for people who are already retired, but it's starting to look like that choice will be made for us, by bankruptcy.

That's what I'm saying.  And, AND - it's going to come out of my pocket at least twice (and in other ways, but - ):  once for me and Gunsmith who will see nothing in return from the money taken from our pay, his is still ongoing, and the second way in helping my parents just make their bills and live.

[charlesoakwood]

Yes Pandora, it was a poorly constructed sentence.

Yes, sorry to disagree with you Charles but SS does need to be cut off.  The eligibility age needs to be rolled back a few more years and there needs to be a date certain put on the program's death. 

That is an easy out. Cutting off SS and more importantly Medicare is a death sentence, do you really want to do that?  Those who will then knowingly be condemned, do you expect them to scruff their toe in the dirt, scratch their head and go quietly away? Or do you propose to load us onto trains so that you do not have to suffer the sight?

Second point.  There are a multitude of obvious persistent virulent programs growing in cost exponentially why not cut them first.  Priorities are out of order.



 

[charlesoakwood]

Pandora

That's what I'm saying.  And, AND - it's going to come out of my pocket at least twice (and in other ways, but - ):  once for me and Gunsmith who will see nothing in return from the money taken from our pay, his is still ongoing, and the second way in helping my parents just make their bills and live.

You are talking an easy 1/2 mil, for 2 sets of parents, more.  It is good that you can afford to take care of your folks.  What about those that are on their own? Those that are on their own outnumber those that have loved one's to support for them.

I see all those $1,000 dollar suits in DC and think, you want to come after me?

[Pandora]

Pandora

That's what I'm saying.  And, AND - it's going to come out of my pocket at least twice (and in other ways, but - ):  once for me and Gunsmith who will see nothing in return from the money taken from our pay, his is still ongoing, and the second way in helping my parents just make their bills and live.

You are talking an easy 1/2 mil, for 2 sets of parents, more.  It is good that you can afford to take care of your folks.  What about those that are on their own? Those that are on their own outnumber those that have loved one's to support for them.

What the hell do you want from me, Charles?  What?  I'm willing to take care of my one-set of parents - that's all we've got - and take care of own selves re: retirement, simultaneously.  "Good that you can afford"?  It'll take everything we have and everything we can scrape up to do so.  The "good" thing we don't have children, to boot.  Neither me at 57, nor Gunsmith, who is 46, will see a dime of SS after a work-life of confiscation, and I'm supposed to support you going forward as well?  How much are you willing to demand of folks like me?

I see all those $1,000 dollar suits in DC and think, you want to come after me?

Come after you?  No.  Nobody's coming after you.  What I'm saying is nobody can any longer afford you coming after us.

The plan is to get the guys in $1,000 suits out of the running and prioritize the rest; we'll do the best by you and those like you that we can, but your life, and ours, is in for a hard change.

[IronDioPriest]

...It's time for real adults to step forward and say "It doesn't matter what you want, this is what we have." Or, to the point, what we don't have....

The intentions of the person or people who deliver this message is infinitely important, because the person or people delivering this message will intend to offer solutions.

Just having someone with the balls to tell the American people that we're out of money is not the primary necessity. It is imperative that whoever delivers that message has an unbreakable bond to the constitution, or this country is through.

I can imagine Barack Hussein Obama "manning up" to tell the American people that the bill has come due for our way of life, and that there is no more money for anything. As hyper-inflation destroys the American way of life, and makes the staples of living unaffordable to millions, I can imagine him doing it in a way that encourages people to blame America and capitalism for the devastation they are experiencing, and encouraging "workers" to demand and extract restitution from those who he tells them caused the devastation.

The person or people who deliver the required honesty about our fiscal situation must have restoration of the constitution in mind, or their "honesty" will be used as a weapon perhaps even more easily and effectively than it could be used as a "wake-up call".

[rickl]

...It's time for real adults to step forward and say "It doesn't matter what you want, this is what we have." Or, to the point, what we don't have....

The intentions of the person or people who deliver this message is infinitely important, because the person or people delivering this message will intend to offer solutions.

Just having someone with the balls to tell the American people that we're out of money is not the primary necessity. It is imperative that whoever delivers that message has an unbreakable bond to the constitution, or this country is through.

I can imagine Barack Hussein Obama "manning up" to tell the American people that the bill has come due for our way of life, and that there is no more money for anything. As hyper-inflation destroys the American way of life, and makes the staples of living unaffordable to millions, I can imagine him doing it in a way that encourages people to blame America and capitalism for the devastation they are experiencing, and encouraging "workers" to demand and extract restitution from those who he tells them caused the devastation.

The person or people who deliver the required honesty about our fiscal situation must have restoration of the constitution in mind, or their "honesty" will be used as a weapon perhaps even more easily and effectively than it could be used as a "wake-up call".

Bingo.  Well said.

[John Florida]

Once again were at the point where we agree/disagree about programs that were forced upon us and say that we can't afford this or that,and the way things are we can't. But the blame for all this is mismanagement of the programs themselves.


  When DC gets their hands on any money they do the only thing they know how SPEND IT with the theory being the next guy can deal with it only the next guy borrows to cover the shortfall and so it been around and around till the pyramid scheme fall down around DCs ears and they pass it on to us. And to make things better they started new programs and the excuse has always been "this is America the richest country in the world and we don't provide this or that for our people"??

   That's like saying "for the children"when it's about pay raises or votes. It's all bull sh*t they got theselves in a hole and now they want a bigger deeper hole and we get to dig it and pay for it.

And now we get this!

[IronDioPriest]

....Cut off those already dependent on it?  No.  Means test the current recipients and kill it off as soon as possible....

I agree with this. As Pan says, there is no money, and we are broke. If we do nothing, our economy and government will collapse under the weight of debt - Ponzi entitlements being the primary driver of that debt. Even if we act aggressively, by cutting spending and unleashing capital investment, some kind of forced-reality reordering of our entitlement house is imminent.

So assuming that we have to try something as opposed to doing nothing, and assuming that what is required is some level of austerity, the question becomes what level of austerity, and what is politically possible? Paul Ryan has made some proposals along these lines, and it seems the only sane thing to try. We have to find a way to do the best we can to fulfill promises made to those who are currently benefiting from the system, and those who will be in the near future. There should be a means-test for these entitlements, and a slight increase in the retirement age. It will be hard for people to swallow, but it will not devastate those who have the means to support their own retirement.  

Then something needs to be done about younger people who are being told that the SS/Medicare they have been paying into for 20 years (or whatever the number is) is going away, but will be replaced by (whatever - tax-free personal investment accounts, sliding-scale tax incentive for increased retirement savings, Idduno).

If we can get a grip on wasteful government spending, and eliminate retirement entitlements for people under a certain age while continuing them with some kind of a means test for those in or about to enter into the system, then it seems to me that that is about all that can be done. If we still collapse under the weight of behemoth government, we still did what could be done.

The other option is crash and burn, and deal with whatever America becomes in the aftermath. I don't like the prospects of that for my children or grandchild.

[rickl]

slight increase in the retirement age

Slight increase?  I'd raise it to 75 right now.  It wouldn't fix the problem, but it would push forward the day of reckoning and buy time to come up with a more permanent solution.

Since the average life expectancy has greatly increased since the 1930s, the retirement age should have gradually increased in step with it.  There is nothing magical about the number 65 (or 55 for certain public employees).  Yet we have come to believe that retirement is our God-given right.  It's not.  It's never been the case anytime in human history.

Of course, doing this would expose yet another problem:  our moribund economy isn't creating enough jobs to go around.  That won't change until the government gets its boot off the neck of the free market.