Topic: An Ounce of Preparation is Worth a Pound of C4

[charlesoakwood]

How many hours at 120v/amps does that translate to?

All my calculations were at 120 volt AC power.

How many hours at a draw at 120v and  __amps have you achieved from the storage batteries?

[Weisshaupt]

How many hours at 120v/amps does that translate to?

Power (Watts)  = Voltage (V)  * Current (I) 
Electric usage is measured in Watt-hrs or Killowatt hours -  a 100 Watt light bulb left on for one hour will use .1 Kw-Hr, or 100 watt-hrs.


Batteries are rated in Amp-Hrs and operate at a specific voltage - be careful to note the Amp Hour Rate on the battery  (most are rated at 20 Hours - i.e.  a 100 Amp-Hr battery (20 hr rating) will supply 100 amps over a period of 20 Hours.  Also be away YOU CAN'T USE 80% of that rating. Discharging most batteries more than 20%  results in damage to the battery.- even deep cycles will be damaged- the only difference is how much they will be damaged.

So for my system  I have  20% * 830 Amps-hr  * 48 V = 7.968 Kw-hrs of storage. Or enough for one day of "essentials only" power usage at my cabin.  The Panels should provide 6000W * 4 hr = 24 kw-Hr a day charging at minimum, so that gives me something like 16Kw hours to use (or loose) during the day if my Grid disappears --  and that is winter wattage - in the summer I can expect a good 5-5.5 hours of production. or 30 KW-Hrs. Under normal conditions any power I don't use would be shunted to the grid giving me a Kw-Hr credit with the co-op that I can use later.   You try to come out of a net of zero because they pay you wholesale for over production - using the power grid as your battery eliminates a huge cost, and that is why grid tie systems are so popular.  Of course with a grid tie, when the grid looses power - YOU LOOSE POWER - the inverter MUST shut off otherwise it will try to power the entire grid by itself and people working on "dead" lines may find them energized.

  Usually batteries have a rating on how many times they can be" fully cycled" - some have a full cycle rating to 20%, some to 50% and some more. . If I should loose sunlight for some reason ( a week of storms)  the Batts I have are designed to be cycled to 80% charge 2000 times. . Of course, that uses up a bit of their useful life span. But it I had to do it, I would have .8 * 830*48 = 31.872 KW-Hrs of storage, or enough for around 4 days -assuming little or no charging while the sun is up.

 

[Papa Bear]

Interesting discussion!

Unfortunately, I live so close to "civilization" that prepping the house for living off the grid would be impossible. I use the term "civilization" pretty loosely because when you live less than 20 miles from 8 mile (Detroit city limits) & less than 10 miles from Pontiac, it is stretching reality to call high population density "civilization". I was going to ask for advice on how to handle that, but maybe it would be better to start a new thread ...

Anyways, I know a bit about energy related things and I would be happy to help where I can (I am a research engineer working in the "alternative energy" - can't say much more than that. I am not allowed too ).

P.S. I get into the practical side of things too. I am currently building skid steer attachments, a geothermal energy system and building a basement under my house.

[IronDioPriest]

...when you live less than 20 miles from 8 mile (Detroit city limits) & less than 10 miles from Pontiac, it is stretching reality to call high population density "civilization".

 

I was going to ask for advice on how to handle that, but maybe it would be better to start a new thread ...

I think we have a thread going on urban/high pop-density emergency living. I'll see if I can dig it up...

[Delnorin]

Meeting Update:

The friend at work that was my 'in' into the group...

His wife got sick before the big meeting and he had to back out.  I haven't been able to meet up with the group yet.

[Delnorin]

That's a great idea... which reminds me.  I purchased a garage sale item last summer.  It's about the size of a small cooler that you carry your lunch to work in.  It's a little fridge that fits between the back seat(s) of the car and plugs into the 12 volt DC outlet.  That's perfect.  Okay... now I'm getting excited.

I found a place that is selling the mini-fridge thing that I picked up at the yard sale.  Neat.

This is good.. the one I bought had no data-plate.. now I know it draws about 3.3 amps... needed to know that.



http://www.earthtechproducts.com/wagan-thermo-fridge-warmer-6-liter.html

Keep your foods at perfect serving temperatures even when outside of your home. Take this highly adaptable 6-Liter Thermo-Fridge/Warmer from Wagan on your next outdoor trip and get the luxury of having a portable mini fridge always at the ready wherever you might be.

•    6-Liter Electric Cooler Warmer Designed for Easy Use on Outdoor Adventures
•    Dual Adaptability - will work with 12V Car Plug (car lighter plug) or AC Adapter
•    User-Friendly Interface – simple Hot/Cold/Off switch with LED temperature display
•    Fit a 6 Pack and More - has a 6 Liter Capacity equivalent to fitting up to 9 cans
•    Space Saving Design - conveniently fits at front console or back seat with 2 cup holders at the front
•    Comes with a 1 Year Warranty

Ever wanted a cold drink while out camping? How about a warm cup of soup while out fishing in the wee hours of the night? With the Wagan 2260 Thermo Fridge Warmer, controlling the coldness and warmth of your food and beverages is now in your hands. Simply plug it into your car lighter plug and get cold or hot food and drinks in a really short time. Lightweight, portable and very durable, get the best out of the outdoors with this 6-Liter electric cooler warmer from Wagan.


SPECIFICATIONS
Manufacturer:    Wagan
Product Name:    2260 6-Liter Thermo Fridge Warmer
Product Type:    Thermo Fridge/Warmer
Dimensions:    10.50" Height x 7.50" Width x 13" Depth
Weight:    6.50 lbs
Capacity:    6 liters (9 cans)
Cooling capacity:    45°F - 50°F below room temperature
Minimum temperature:    24.8°F (-4°C)
Maximum temperature :    140°F (60°C)
Input power:    3.3 Amps, DC 12V
Brushless motor:    20,000 hr
Insulation material:    Polyurethane foam
Manufacturer's Warranty:    1 year

[Weisshaupt]

This is good.. the one I bought had no data-plate.. now I know it draws about 3.3 amps... needed to know that.

Looks like a heater cooler that uses the peltier/seeback effect
Neat, but really inefficient from a power conversion perspective.   It will use much more power  than other methods.  3.3 Amps @ 12 Volts is approximately  40 Watts.  That could run a laptop.  If it had to run all day it would use almost 1 Kw-Hr of power - or almost enough to run a full size fridge.  And the smaller volume makes it harder to keep cool ( or hot)   I still think converting a chest freezer into a  Fridge is the best approach... or at least the best I have found so far..

[Delnorin]

This is good.. the one I bought had no data-plate.. now I know it draws about 3.3 amps... needed to know that.

Looks like a heater cooler that uses the peltier/seeback effect
Neat, but really inefficient from a power conversion perspective.   It will use much more power  than other methods.  3.3 Amps @ 12 Volts is approximately  40 Watts.  That could run a laptop.  If it had to run all day it would use almost 1 Kw-Hr of power - or almost enough to run a full size fridge.  And the smaller volume makes it harder to keep cool ( or hot)   I still think converting a chest freezer into a  Fridge is the best approach... or at least the best I have found so far..

The planned application is to keep my daughter's insulin cold while we are evacuating out of the desert of Arizona and trying to get up/out.  In transit it would plug into the car... until such time we run out of fuel and I have to start scouting/bartering for fuel to continue travel, etc.  Man.. 1 tank of gas isn't going to get us very far at all when the roads are all closed down and the gas stations are all out of fuel.

I've been pricing jeeps and small trailers.  Whatever I buy next has to have off-road abilities.  A Kia Spectra (with no trailer hitch) just isn't going to get you up into the mountains off-roading.  The established roads will be deathtraps and/or collection points for the re-education camps.

Time to also add military metal jerry cans for fuel to the list.

[Weisshaupt]

The planned application is to keep my daughter's insulin cold while we are evacuating out of the desert of Arizona and trying to get up/out.

Yep, this is perfect for that app. Its still a significant load. I would probably see what it did your your fuel economy ahead of time. 

1 tank of gas isn't going to get us very far at all when the roads are all closed down and the gas stations are all out of fuel.

A lot of people suggest getting a fuel-safe hand pump-- that way you can still get the gas out of the tank in the ground - paying an attendant or not.

I've been pricing jeeps and small trailers.

Older jeeps are a good idea.  The ones based on military designs being best since they are easy to disassemble and work on and parts are plentiful.  However, I am still partial to a truck.-- I don't know how I would be getting things done at the Teotwaki place without one.  Diesel or Alcohol capable vehicles are also interesting in case you ever have to make your own fuel and/or are dependant upon local sources for fuel. 

I don't think we are going to get to the point where you see road blocks on interstates- or at least you will see martial law declared in local areas before they will go all out on it - and you should be long gone before they get to clamping down on interstate travel ( it will be easier for them to restrict fuel via rationing than try to patrol roads anyway)  A lot of folks cache fuel on their planned route if more than one tank is required.  Jerry cans may be confiscated  or stolen at check points.  As a a practical consideration, you can't prep a place when its over 3-4 hours away. Too much driving, too little time to work. If you need more than a tank to get where you are going, you better be meeting a group who can help prep the location.. 

[Libertas]

I'll echo the pump idea, I have one, I want another (larger/longer one)...if power goes out, pumps won't work.  I think in our TEOTWAWKI thread we had info on the markings to look for on the covers so as to draw from the right tank for the fuel you want.