Author Topic: Those Useless Wind Farms  (Read 1944 times)

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Offline BMG

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Those Useless Wind Farms
« on: November 20, 2011, 01:53:31 PM »
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/16/us-dutch-wind-idUSTRE7AF1JM20111116

Quote
The government now plans to transfer the financial burden to households and industrial consumers in order to secure the funds for wind power and try to attract private sector investment.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/prince-philip/8901985/Wind-farms-are-useless-says-Duke.html

Quote
The Duke of Edinburgh has made a fierce attack on wind farms, describing them as “absolutely useless”.
In a withering assault on the onshore wind turbine industry, the Duke said the farms were “a disgrace”.
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Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: Those Useless Wind Farms
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2011, 02:16:29 PM »
I recently read that a plans for a proposed windfarm here in Washington state was canceled after a feasibility study concluded that there would be no payoff date - ever - for the investment. They would be throwing money away to make the appearance of being 'green'.

Offline BMG

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Re: Those Useless Wind Farms
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2011, 03:01:51 PM »
I wouldn't doubt that in the least Soup...sounds about right. When it comes to wind power everything I've ever read points to it being impractical unless it's on a very small scale...like using a wind mill to power a water pump and nothing more.  Even on an individual basis I've read accounts of people that were using wind generators to power their houses and always ended up scrapping the idea altogether and going with something like solar instead.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.” 
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Online Pandora

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Re: Those Useless Wind Farms
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2011, 03:05:30 PM »
Quote
"Even if you take everything into account, wind energy is not expensive. Take into account the hidden costs of fossil fuels. For example, transport of coal generates more carbon dioxide emissions and no-one calculates that into the electricity price."

 ::gaah::
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Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: Those Useless Wind Farms
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2011, 03:10:07 PM »
Quote
"Even if you take everything into account, wind energy is not expensive. Take into account the hidden costs of fossil fuels. For example, transport of coal generates more carbon dioxide emissions and no-one calculates that into the electricity price."

 ::gaah::

Yea, let's not talk about the fact that most of the electricity generated at windfarms is lost in the transmission lines getting from the generation site to "town".

Edited to add: It is my belief that most utilities add wind (and to a degree solar) to their production capabilities because;

A. They are intimidated into it by leftist government and,
B. They are taking advantage of the heavy federal subsidies.

Remove either one and you'd never hear of wind power again.

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Re: Those Useless Wind Farms
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2011, 03:12:22 PM »
I wouldn't doubt that in the least Soup...sounds about right. When it comes to wind power everything I've ever read points to it being impractical unless it's on a very small scale...like using a wind mill to power a water pump and nothing more.  Even on an individual basis I've read accounts of people that were using wind generators to power their houses and always ended up scrapping the idea altogether and going with something like solar instead.

Soup recently linked to a City Data thread, running into a hundred-plus pages, detailing a couple's building of their small off-the-grid home.  They started with solar panels and a wind-turbine, then two, and then took them down in favor of more solar panels.  Even on top of hilly ground in E. Tenn., the things were too ineffective to bother with, and too unstable.
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Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: Those Useless Wind Farms
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2011, 03:18:04 PM »
I wouldn't doubt that in the least Soup...sounds about right. When it comes to wind power everything I've ever read points to it being impractical unless it's on a very small scale...like using a wind mill to power a water pump and nothing more.  Even on an individual basis I've read accounts of people that were using wind generators to power their houses and always ended up scrapping the idea altogether and going with something like solar instead.

Soup recently linked to a City Data thread, running into a hundred-plus pages, detailing a couple's building of their small off-the-grid home.  They started with solar panels and a wind-turbine, then two, and then took them down in favor of more solar panels.  Even on top of hilly ground in E. Tenn., the things were too ineffective to bother with, and too unstable.

Personally, I think that their greatest problem with that installation was that he under-engineered it. It looked too much like a "Harbor-Freight" solution to me, and nothing that I would want to trust my comfort - or my life to.

Online Pandora

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Re: Those Useless Wind Farms
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2011, 03:21:58 PM »
I wouldn't doubt that in the least Soup...sounds about right. When it comes to wind power everything I've ever read points to it being impractical unless it's on a very small scale...like using a wind mill to power a water pump and nothing more.  Even on an individual basis I've read accounts of people that were using wind generators to power their houses and always ended up scrapping the idea altogether and going with something like solar instead.

Soup recently linked to a City Data thread, running into a hundred-plus pages, detailing a couple's building of their small off-the-grid home.  They started with solar panels and a wind-turbine, then two, and then took them down in favor of more solar panels.  Even on top of hilly ground in E. Tenn., the things were too ineffective to bother with, and too unstable.

Personally, I think that their greatest problem with that installation was that he under-engineered it. It looked too much like a "Harbor-Freight" solution to me, and nothing that I would want to trust my comfort - or my life to.

Could be; they looked a bit flimsy to me as well, but IIRC, Lisa had written that even when working as expected, there wasn't enough wind, thus a return, to make them a viable option, when it was the solar panels doing the majority of the battery-recharging work.
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Offline John Florida

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Re: Those Useless Wind Farms
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2011, 04:12:32 PM »
Quote
"Even if you take everything into account, wind energy is not expensive. Take into account the hidden costs of fossil fuels. For example, transport of coal generates more carbon dioxide emissions and no-one calculates that into the electricity price."

 ::gaah::


  Only an idiot wouln't know that the price power companies pay for coal in dilivered on sight.What hidden cost?
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Online Pandora

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Re: Those Useless Wind Farms
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2011, 04:17:36 PM »
Quote
"Even if you take everything into account, wind energy is not expensive. Take into account the hidden costs of fossil fuels. For example, transport of coal generates more carbon dioxide emissions and no-one calculates that into the electricity price."

 ::gaah::


  Only an idiot wouln't know that the price power companies pay for coal in dilivered on sight.What hidden cost?

The "carbon dioxide emissions" that are poisoning the air and heating up the atmosphere.

Everything they dislike has an obscure "hidden cost" to these loonatics; if it was toilet paper that was "hated", they'd cite butt-chafing as a "hidden cost" to its use.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 04:20:47 PM by Pandora »
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Offline Delnorin

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Re: Those Useless Wind Farms
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2011, 07:21:21 PM »
I wouldn't doubt that in the least Soup...sounds about right. When it comes to wind power everything I've ever read points to it being impractical unless it's on a very small scale...like using a wind mill to power a water pump and nothing more.  Even on an individual basis I've read accounts of people that were using wind generators to power their houses and always ended up scrapping the idea altogether and going with something like solar instead.

All these green ideas I like on a personal/small scale.  My own bank account paying for my own power for my own house.  When it goes into society engineering that's where I stop supporting it.

I'd just LOVE to have my own solar panels with windmills.  Here when the sun stops shining the wind picks up... when the wind drops down the clouds part and out comes the sun.  I love geothermal... I like underground houses... there are so many 'environmental' ideas that are spectacular on a small scale.

But... why the hell do I have to pay higher taxes to outfit someone elses house?

Screw that.

Offline Papa Bear

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Re: Those Useless Wind Farms
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2011, 09:27:26 PM »
It is my belief that most utilities add wind (and to a degree solar) to their production capabilities because;

A. They are intimidated into it by leftist government and,
B. They are taking advantage of the heavy federal subsidies.

Remove either one and you'd never hear of wind power again.
You are quite correct on wind. Here are just a few of the problems:

1.) Wind power looks best with the first installations. Engineers are smart and pick the places with the most consistent/fastest winds. As number of installations goes up, the load factor goes down. (Load factor is the percentage of power delivered to customers vs the amount of power the installations are rated for).
2.) When environmental factors are the worst (the hottest part of the summer and the coldest part of the winter), wind power tends to be at its worst.
3.) Windmill gearboxes tend to have significant reliability issues. The vast majority of windmills 10+ years old have either had a gearbox removal and replacement or a major retrofit. Average time between major maintenance is approximately 7 years.
4.) Windmills either require backup power to compensate for their unreliability or they need to put the power into a storage mechanism such as pumped hydro.
5.) Power output is proportional to the cube of speed.
  • Let me give an example: a windmill is rated to give 2 MW (2,000,000 W) at 20 mph. Rated power is 2 MW. Rated windspeed is 20 mph. If the wind blows faster, the windmill cannot produce more power. If it blows MUCH faster, the windmill has to be shut down to prevent damage. If the wind blows slower, the windmill produces much less power. If the wind blows 10 mph (1/2 its rated speed), the windmill would only make .25 MW (250,000 watts - 12/5% of its rated power).  If the wind is blowing 5 mph (1/4 its rated speed), the windmill would make only  .03 MW (31,250 watts - 1.56% of its rated output).
6.) Windmills cannot be spaced close together or they will interfere with each other

I think I will start a full blown "expose" post on the politics of wind power.

Solar power is also half baked.

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Offline BMG

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Re: Those Useless Wind Farms
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2011, 08:39:25 AM »
@Delnorin:

Oh, I like alternate sources of power as well because they provide INDEPENDANCE. Not because they are some fantasy-land 'green' cure-all for 'dirty' fossil fuels. On a small scale they work well enough. But as soon as the government steps in and demands this stuff on a large scale it all falls apart.
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Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: Those Useless Wind Farms
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2011, 08:51:46 AM »
When I drive to see my daughter I pass a wind farm with dozens of turbines.  In the last couple of years I've only seen a few of them ever turning.  They annoy me so much that I have to annoy who's ever in the car with me with a rant of how I hate them. Perfectly good farm land wasted.  And I doubt they'll ever come down.  Can you imagine the outrage at the mere suggestion?

When I see them I think they're a perfect testiment to stupidity.
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Online Pandora

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Re: Those Useless Wind Farms
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2011, 10:01:26 AM »
As socialists believe they can simply will into being new laws of economics, so they believe as well about the laws of physics.
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Offline Papa Bear

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Re: Those Useless Wind Farms
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2011, 12:13:54 PM »
When I drive to see my daughter I pass a wind farm with dozens of turbines.  In the last couple of years I've only seen a few of them ever turning.  They annoy me so much that I have to annoy who's ever in the car with me with a rant of how I hate them. Perfectly good farm land wasted.  And I doubt they'll ever come down.  Can you imagine the outrage at the mere suggestion?

When I see them I think they're a perfect testiment to stupidity.

That is the problem with the gearboxes not being reliable. Often times, the cost to fix/replace the gearbox is more than the consumer will pay for the electricity the windmill will produce (even with subsidies).

You are seeing the result (dead windmills).

charlesoakwood

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Re: Those Useless Wind Farms
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2011, 12:30:35 PM »
When I drive to see my daughter I pass a wind farm with dozens of turbines.  In the last couple of years I've only seen a few of them ever turning.  They annoy me so much that I have to annoy who's ever in the car with me with a rant of how I hate them. Perfectly good farm land wasted.  And I doubt they'll ever come down.  Can you imagine the outrage at the mere suggestion?

When I see them I think they're a perfect testiment to stupidity.

That is the problem with the gearboxes not being reliable. Often times, the cost to fix/replace the gearbox is more than the consumer will pay for the electricity the windmill will produce (even with subsidies).

You are seeing the result (dead windmills).

As soon as the subsidies dry up they will go into disrepair. 
Idle they will deteriorate and will either be sold for scrap
or given to a scrapper for the cost/liability of tearing them
down.

Online Pandora

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Re: Those Useless Wind Farms
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2011, 01:05:08 PM »
Quote
As Jimi Hendrix may have put it: “And the wind cries bankrupt…”

Minnesotans for Global Warming report that in the last 30 years, the United States has had 14,000 wind turbines abandoned. Apparently, once the subsidies and the wind run out, these 20-story high Cuisinarts are de-bladed and retired. This means more bats and migratory birds will live.

From Minnesotans for Global Warming: “The symbol of Green renewable energy, our savior from the non existent problem of Global Warming, abandoned wind farms are starting to litter the planet as globally governments cut the subsidies taxes that consumers pay for the privilege of having a very expensive power source that does not work every day for various reasons like it’s too cold or  the wind speed is too high.”

Andrew Walden of American Thinker explored nearly 2 years ago the demise of the 37-turbine wind farm at Kamaoa Wind Farm in Hawaii: “Built in 1985, at the end of the boom, Kamaoa soon suffered from lack of maintenance. In 1994, the site lease was purchased by Redwood City, CA-based Apollo Energy. Cannibalizing parts from the original 37 turbines, Apollo personnel kept the declining facility going with outdated equipment. But even in a place where wind-shaped trees grow sideways, maintenance issues were overwhelming. By 2004 Kamaoa accounts began to show up on a Hawaii State Department of Finance list of unclaimed properties. In 2006, transmission was finally cut off by Hawaii Electric Company.California’s wind farms — then comprising about 80% of the world’s wind generation capacity — ceased to generate much more quickly than Kamaoa. In the best wind spots on earth, over 14,000 turbines were simply abandoned. Spinning, post-industrial junk which generates nothing but bird kills.”

When an honest history of this period in the United States is written, it will no be kind to the corporate cronyism that preyed upon public ignorance of earth science to create a crisis — global warming — to exploit and loot the Treasury.

http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/archives/46519
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Offline Sectionhand

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Re: Those Useless Wind Farms
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2011, 04:53:35 AM »
If this had ever been a viable source of electricity , those turds at G.E. would have been ( and still be ) all over it .