Author Topic: Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy  (Read 2480 times)

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Offline Delnorin

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Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy
« on: November 29, 2011, 06:27:18 PM »
Several months back my wife started to talk to me about friends she has back in Michigan.  The family was asking for prayer for their little boy because he had cancer.  Hundreds/thousands of people started to pray for the little boy as he was going through chemo.

Time passes..... a PET scan is done and he's cancer free (at that time)...  Much rejoicing.

A little time passes and we get another prayer request.... the doctors are insisting to continue chemo, even after the PET scans are telling them that the little boy no longer has cancer.. they want to keep pumping the poisons into him anyway.

I'll let the story below tell the full issue.. it covers everything very well.

My wife is subscribed to a Homeschool newsletter and it was interesting that this information about people she knows back in Michigan showed up in the Homeschool newsletter.  I thought I'd share it with everyone here so you can see:  Just how close you can be from the government taking your children from you any time they get the whim.
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http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/mi/201111290.asp

Who Makes the Really Tough Decisions: Parents? Or Doctors?
by Michael Farris
HSLDA Chairman

Who should make very difficult decisions for children? Parents or doctors?

In March of this year, 8-year-old Jacob Stieler was diagnosed with Ewing Sarcoma, a dangerous bone cancer. His parents took him to a highly-rated children’s oncology center in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Jacob had surgery to remove the tumor, which was followed by several rounds of chemotherapy. The treatment was incredibly difficult, and Jacob’s mom, Erin, told me that when she looked her son in the eyes, she knew in her heart that he simply could not survive many more rounds of these drugs.

Erin and Ken, Jacob’s mom and dad, joined by hundreds of others, prayed for Jacob and his complete recovery.

After all of these rounds of chemotherapy were completed, there was a PET scan done to check on the status of the cancer. There was no evidence of cancer detected in Jacob’s body. Jacob’s family and friends rejoiced in his healing—praising God for this wonderful outcome.

But the doctors wanted to give Jacob several more rounds of chemotherapy and radiation, despite the clean PET scan. When asked why they wanted to keep giving Jacob these incredibly dangerous drugs, the doctors replied that this was “the standard of care” for his illness.

Jacob’s parents begged the doctors to make an individual diagnosis, rather than simply following unbending standards. But the doctors were steadfast. All children with this cancer needed multiple rounds of these drugs—regardless of PET scan results, the doctors contended.

Jacob’s parents did extensive study of the side effects of the five different chemotherapy drugs that the doctor wanted to administer. And they believed that the risk of the drugs was far greater than the risk of recurrent cancer, since Jacob had a clean PET scan. They said no to the doctors. No more chemotherapy treatment for now.

But the doctors would not take no for an answer. They called child protective services in Jacob’s county and asked the agency to file charges against the family for medical neglect.

 
After looking into the matter, both the local CPS agency and the local prosecuting attorney refused to file charges. They believed that the parents were making reasonable decisions for Jacob.

The doctors still would not take no for an answer. They called higher authorities in the state level CPS agency. The doctors had to make several calls before they finally found someone who would agree with them.

As a result of all of these calls, the local CPS agency was pressured into filing medical neglect charges against the parents.

The local prosecutor still refused to take a case against the family, so the state level CPS officials hired an independent private lawyer to serve as the prosecutor against Ken and Erin Stieler.

A jury trial is scheduled for early January to determine if the doctors will be given the authority to take over the medical decision-making for Jacob.

When I heard about this case—and checked out the facts—I knew that I could not sit on the sidelines and watch this family be overrun and parental rights be trashed by well-meaning but overzealous doctors.

I recently flew to Michigan and took the depositions of all three doctors who were scheduled to testify against the family.

Jacob’s treating physician is the key.

I prepared for the depositions by obtaining copies of the official “package inserts” that the FDA requires all drug companies to give to physicians and patients. Undoubtedly, you have seen these inserts when you have picked up prescriptions for your children.

The inserts tell you several things:

Indicated uses—that is a list of the diseases for which there is evidence that the drug is a safe and effective treatment.
Warnings—these are strong cautions that indicate serious potential issues.
Side effects—these disclose all of the potential consequences that arise from taking the drug.
Approved for children—there is a specific disclaimer on many drugs that indicate whether the drugs have been proven to be safe and effective for children.
“Have all of these drugs been approved by the FDA as safe and effective for children?” I asked Jacob’s treating oncologist.

“Yes,” she replied, they have been FDA-approved for children.

According to the official package inserts that we were able to obtain, she is just flat wrong.

 
She wanted to continue to give Ifosfamide to Jacob.

The FDA disclosure for this drug says: “Pediatric Use: Safety and effectiveness in pediatric patients have not been established.”

The oncologist wanted to give Jacob a weeks’ worth of Etoposide.

The FDA disclosure says: “Pediatric Use: Safety and effectiveness in pediatric patients have not been established.”

The warning on the drug Doxorubicin says: “Pediatric patients are at increased risk for developing delayed cardiotoxicity.” This means that the drug can cause severe harm to a child’s heart—at even higher rates than it can in adults.

In fact, as it turned out, the treating doctor had never even seen, much less read, these official FDA-required package inserts. She did state that she had seen similar information from other sources.

Most of the drugs did not list Jacob’s form of cancer as an “indicated use.” This means that these drugs had not been tested and validated as safe and effective for this particular kind of cancer—even for adults, much less for children.

And then we get to the official warnings and side effects.

In addition to the strong warnings about “congestive heart failure” from Doxorubicin, other drugs the doctor wanted to give were known to have caused cancer—new forms of cancer—in patients being treated for an original cancer. Vincristine’s label is typical of these warnings: “Patients who received chemotherapy with vinchristine sulfate in combination with anticancer drugs known to be carcinogenic have developed second malignancies.” The warning labels say that sometimes these second cancers develop years after the treatment.

All five of the drugs that the doctors want to give Jacob are either known to cause other cancers or have not been fully tested.

Some of the other side effects for these drugs include:

Damage to the cranial motor nerves
Serious infections
Failure of boys to sexually mature
The inability to father children
Anorexia
It would take pages to recite all of the warnings and side effects.

 
Parental rights are increasingly being lost in the medical arena. I am beginning to wonder why physicians even bother asking for parental consent if they will just do an end run around the parents whenever it is convenient for them to do so.

This is not an easy case. It is not a case where a child has a current illness and the treatment is tested and proven to be safe and effective—those cases are easily resolved. The best evidence is that Jacob no longer has objective evidence of cancer. And not a single drug that the doctors want to give Jacob is FDA-approved for children for his kind of cancer.

This is a case where there must be a judgment call—a balancing of risks.

Who makes that call?

The doctor told me during the deposition that she thinks that she should make the call—for every child in this situation. And she would give the same answer every time, rather than making an individual judgment.

I can’t imagine a more clear case of the need for parental rights. This is a decision that requires the wisdom of God.

HSLDA was established to defend parental rights in the context of homeschooling. But the assault on parental rights comes to us on many fronts. This is why we have set up the Homeschool Freedom Fund to enable us to fight important cases for the broader principle of parental rights. Our regular membership fees do not stretch far enough to cover these kinds of cases. We truly need your help to be able to fight for the principles we all hold dear.

If you would like to stand with us in this critical battle for parental rights, I would ask you to send the very best gift you can to the Home School Foundation’s Homeschool Freedom Fund. All gifts to HSF are tax-deductible.

This trial is coming soon—we will send out email alerts if there is any change in the schedule.

Fighting a case of this magnitude is an expensive proposition. I hope you will be as generous as possible so that we may cover travel costs, local counsel, and deposition expenses—for this case and future cases where justice demands action to preserve freedom.

Our nation was founded upon the traditions of Western Civilization. This civilization was founded on the principles of the Word of God. God gives children to parents—not to the state, and not to doctors. In cases like this one, our legal system must remain steadfast in following the principle that God has delegated these kinds of decisions to parents, not to doctors, social workers, or courts.

Please pray for the Stieler family’s case and help as best you can. Thank you.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 06:38:00 PM by Delnorin »

Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2011, 08:01:40 PM »
Ah, the sacred doctor-patient bond...
until you dare question the doctor.
"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

Offline Delnorin

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Re: Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2011, 08:05:15 PM »
Just can't wait until Obama's death-panels are fully implemented.

Online IronDioPriest

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Re: Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2011, 09:02:56 PM »
I see the problem not so much as one of an overzealous doctor, but one of bureaucracy run amok. After all, a conflict between what a doctor thinks is best and what a patient thinks is best is common and likely. In a sane world, the conflict would end when the patient or patient's guardian said "No more". The patient would walk away and be left to the consequences of his decision. The doctor would have no mechanism with which to appeal the wishes of the patient. Case closed.

Government has inserted itself into the most intimate areas of our lives, and that insertion is increasingly being wielded as control.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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charlesoakwood

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Re: Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2011, 09:34:20 PM »

...also the Dr. should suffer no liability for allowing them their decision.


Offline Delnorin

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Re: Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 09:36:03 PM »

...also the Dr. should suffer no liability for allowing them their decision.



Unfortunately.. the doctor is the one playing god here.  The CPS didn't want to press the issue... the doctor had to jump through hoops and call in favors and make promises to get some scum-bag to put pressure on the CPS to force them to do this.

This is a doctor that thinks they are all-powerful... how DARE you question their decision?!?!

Online IronDioPriest

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Re: Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2011, 09:51:08 PM »

...also the Dr. should suffer no liability for allowing them their decision.



Unfortunately.. the doctor is the one playing god here.  The CPS didn't want to press the issue... the doctor had to jump through hoops and call in favors and make promises to get some scum-bag to put pressure on the CPS to force them to do this.

This is a doctor that thinks they are all-powerful... how DARE you question their decision?!?!

This is all true Del, but even so, if there was not an institutional bureaucracy available for this doctor to appeal to, his desire to play god would be utterly impotent.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Delnorin

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Re: Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2011, 09:51:58 PM »

...also the Dr. should suffer no liability for allowing them their decision.



Unfortunately.. the doctor is the one playing god here.  The CPS didn't want to press the issue... the doctor had to jump through hoops and call in favors and make promises to get some scum-bag to put pressure on the CPS to force them to do this.

This is a doctor that thinks they are all-powerful... how DARE you question their decision?!?!

This is all true Del, but even so, if there was not an institutional bureaucracy available for this doctor to appeal to, his desire to play god would be utterly impotent.


Aye.. true.

Offline Delnorin

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Re: Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2011, 08:34:07 PM »
Update:

A doctor (pediatrician) at a hospital that the family has never gone to called the Judge in the case and claimed she was the child's doctor.  She started feeding info to the judge.  The judge was forced to recuse himself.  The hospitals are playing dirty politics and using the law/courts to get rid of the judges that may rule against them by lying and claiming they are the child's doctor, etc to force the judges out until they get one that agrees with them.

Also... the couple children's hospitals involved have FaceBook pages.  The FaceBook pages have become swamped with comments against what the hospital(s) are doing to this family and the child.  Now the Hospitals have wiped all comments that speak out on the issue.  Unless of course you support what they are doing; they let those comments stay on the FaceBook page.

Here is a blog that has taken up the Family's Cause rather well... they cover info nicely:
http://kellythekitchenkop.com/2011/12/shocking-details-on-the-horrific-case-against-jacob-stielers-parents.html


Offline Libertas

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Re: Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2011, 06:54:50 AM »
I agree with IDP in that it is the bureaucracy (the core of the system) that acts as a protective blanket for such instances to occur, and only the character of the institution and its doctors could trump that, but for liability purposes they are choosing not to.  By doing what they are doing they are placing their doctors and institutions above their Hippocratic oath, so it is obvious you are not dealing with the most ethical people here.  I would also caution people to not read into this that every doctor and every hospital behaves the same, they don't.  It's always the exceptions that bring the gross excesses to light.  But we are going the wrong way (ObamaCare) and adding more bureaucracy and less patient control over their health, so if we continue down this path things will get markedly worse.

As for this case, it would still be a jury trial, right?  Finding a judge let alone a jury not sympathetic to the parents could be more than daunting.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2011, 11:44:02 AM »
I have known many health care practioners.  My father taught in medical schools so I met many students through the years.
They are trained for the 95-99% of cases that follow the same old pattern.  They are often blind to or ill-equiped to handle the exceptions.   


But it's been rare to find a doc really willing to work with me as either a patient or parent.  Needless to say I've changed docs over the years.  I treasure the few I have found.

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

Online Pandora

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Re: Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2011, 12:35:49 PM »
I have known many health care practioners.  My father taught in medical schools so I met many students through the years.
They are trained for the 95-99% of cases that follow the same old pattern.  They are often blind to or ill-equiped to handle the exceptions.   


But it's been rare to find a doc really willing to work with me as either a patient or parent.  Needless to say I've changed docs over the years.  I treasure the few I have found.

As you say. 

What I have found over the years is it's like pulling teeth to get a doctor to hypothesize on probable outcomes without running into "hard to tell; everybody's different", yet they're resistant to applying the same attitude to personalizing care, generally.

I treasure, as well, the two I have found who are willing to listen and appreciate that I know me better than they do.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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charlesoakwood

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Re: Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2011, 01:32:41 PM »

It's frustrating as all get out.  We know they have an opinion and up to
five hypotheses for each problem.  They, by nature are ego driven and
love to express themselves.  Liability is probably the number one
reason for closed lips.


Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2011, 01:34:38 PM »
What I have found over the years is it's like pulling teeth to get a doctor to hypothesize on probable outcomes without running into "hard to tell; everybody's different", yet they're resistant to applying the same attitude to personalizing care, generally.



YES! <jumping up and down> that's soooooooo true!
"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

Offline Delnorin

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Re: Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2011, 02:38:46 PM »
Amazing news !!

The new judge on the case...

Threw the case out.  I'll try and get the news/official data on it here soon.  My wife just sent me a text while I was at work telling me that the Judge threw the case out.

WooHoo!

 ::grouphug::

Offline Delnorin

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Re: Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2011, 05:02:46 PM »
Quote
Victory!  Michigan parents win medical decision-making case.

The Probate Court of Marquette County has granted HSLDA's motion to dismiss the prosecution of Ken and Erin Stieler for medical neglect. The Stielers had refused to continue chemotherapy for their son, Jacob, after surgery and the first phase of treatment resulted in clear PET scans. Circuit court judge Thomas Solka ruled today that the family had not neglected their son by refusing to continue with additional rounds of chemotherapy. He recognized that the parents were behaving reasonably by weighing the less-than-certain chance of cure with the risks of very serious side effects. He also placed reliance on HSLDA's argument that three of the five chemotherapy drugs had not been FDA-approved as safe and effective for pediatric sarcoma.

Read the Decision Here:
http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/mi/stielerdecision.pdf

The State of Michigan does have the option of appealing this decision. Please join us in praising God for this important victory for parents and families! Also, continue to pray for Jacob, his parents, and for HSLDA's continued ability defend parental rights.

Blessings to you all,

J. Michael Smith, Esq.
President, HSLDA.

The pdf file is worth the read.. it is extreamly well written and lays out all of what happened.

Online Pandora

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Re: Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2011, 05:42:23 PM »
The State of Michigan has option of appealing?  O rly.  Time to get the hell out of Michigan right now, then.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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Offline Libertas

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Re: Keep Killing My Child: It Makes The Doctors Happy
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2011, 10:41:14 AM »
Indeed Pan, the more this kind of tyranny is exposed, there will no doubt be more exodus from such areas...Detroit on a larger scale...just get out...while you can.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.