Topic: Looking further at Ron Paul

[Pandora]

A couple of items that warrant attention, in my opinion.

The first, written by Daniel Greenfield, who also writes Sultan Knish blog:

In July 2010, Barney Frank and Ron Paul co-authored a Huffington Post article rolling out their Sustainable Defense Task Force. The Task Force “consisting of experts on military expenditures that span the ideological spectrum” would recommend a trillion dollars in defense cuts. The experts, however, didn’t quite “span the ideological spectrum” — more like float under it.

...

If you’re tired of reading through all this, then here’s the summary. Of the Paul-Frank Task Force, 9 out of 14 members were linked to Soros’s organs. Two were affiliated with the Cato Institute. One is indeterminate.

The author goes on to information which I doubt is widely known.

The second, from New Zeal blog discusses the source of Ron Paul's "opposition research" on Rick Santorum, which he used during the January 7th debate.

Rick Santorum told Ron Paul in Saturday’s debate: “You should know better than to cite George Soros-like organizations.” The comment came in response to attacks on Santorum’s record from the Texas Congressman and libertarian running in the Republican presidential primaries.

Exposed for using Soros-funded research in an attack ad charging that Santorum had been “one of the most corrupt” members of Congress, Paul had no explanation or response, except to say that “somebody” had done a survey attacking Santorum and he used it in the ad. The Ron Paul ad includes the line, “I’m Ron Paul and I approve this message.”

I'm as worried over this man as I am over any of the others currently running for President, and not just because of foreign policy positions; he either doesn't properly do his research, or have it done for him, or he is very much aware of whom he climbs in bed with, but when caught, pleads ignorance or lack of responsibility.

[BigAlSouth]

Cranky old anti-Semite isolationist.

[Weisshaupt]

I have at times suspected Paul was paid by both parties to make libertarians look bad. if so there is no antiestablishment candidate in the race.
In the end there is precious little the next President can do. when the economy goes so does federal power

[Libertas]

I have at times suspected Paul was paid by both parties to make libertarians look bad. if so there is no antiestablishment candidate in the race.
In the end there is precious little the next President can do. when the economy goes so does federal power

The only silver lining I see...

[charlesoakwood]

Ron Paul is a very consistent man.

Ron Paul on Morton Downey Jr. - 1988

[AmericanPatriot]

I am no longer sure that Ron Paul is any more dangerous than all of the others

[Libertas]

Maybe if we were all on formerly illegal drugs things would appear much better than they are...

That was sarcasm BTW.

[BigAlSouth]

. . .
In the end there is precious little the next President can do. when the economy goes so does federal power

I don't think so. When the economy tanks, the Feds will will out the tanks . . .

[Weisshaupt]

I don't think so. When the economy tanks, the Feds will will out the tanks . . .

Who will drive the tanks? They have a pretty narrow window of opportunity there before the soldiers figure out they aren't getting a pension, VA benefits or a paycheck, and that they are still expected to put themselves in harms way for a rather dubious cause - the subjugation of the American people. I expect half of the army to refuse the order, and the other half will only accept the  work if they get to rape and pillage, which will be made pretty damn difficult given the number of armed Civilans that won't be sitting in their homes waiting for it to happen.

We won't be easy to subdue by direct armed conflict. 3% particpation in an insurrection would be an army 9 million strong - self equipped and ready. (there were 16 Million NICS checks just last year)  They have to get our weapons from us, or use chemical warfare, germ warfare, Nukes/saturation bombing etc in order to generate the required fear to really go full on totalitarian fascist.  I think instead they will be trying to hide their efforts, largely because liberals have to be able to pretend to themselves to be the "good guys" - they have to convince themselves they are acting in the "common good" - maybe they will resort to the above methods,  but I don't know if liberals at large have the stomach for it. Maybe they do, but I doubt it. .

[Sectionhand]

I have a lot more faith in the troops than that ,

[Weisshaupt]

I have a lot more faith in the troops than that ,

Not to be argumentative, but rather to understand what you mean...
In what way do you have faith? That they will continue to serve when not getting paid? That they will unquestioningly follow unconstitutional orders? That they will refuse unconstitutional orders?

The Army is a very socialistic organization - enlistment to grave health care,  a roof, clothing, food, belonging and a purpose.  I am not suggesting this is wrong or other than it should be, and the irony of the situation has long been noted, but it does attract a considerable number of American-value-hating socialists into the service. They usually aren't consciously there to undermine or destroy, but as you know the ideology itself is corrosive of existing institutions, and there have seen several individuals  who have caused harm to the service, from the outright shooting of their fellow soldiers, to leaking intelligence info.

The question is how many of these individuals, having entered the service primarily to obtain the benefits (not to protect their country, or the American people)  will continue to serve when the benefits are gone, and how many will so need the belonging and purpose that they will follow obviously unconstitutional orders?  The Third Reich was built mostly of that need to belong - giving those who felt powerless and unimportant the opportunity to be strong and bully others and be lauded for it? Its Eric Hoffer's True Believers that worry me. Men like the operative in Serenity, who do evil because they believe that in doing so  that  they will create a "world without sin" - the Marxist Utopian world that Obama and his sheep believe will come about as soon as jerks like us stop resisting.

I think there will be a group of currently enlisted ( and another group that can be recruited) to drive those tanks. Obama's plan is to create fear and desperation- to create legions of people who feel powerless and unimportant - they just make the most motivated and loyal shock troops. But an army needs to be supplied, and post collapse the Fed will have difficulty in doing that using any other means but forceful confiscation, meaning ( I hope) forceful opposition.

Yes, some units, because of one respected man steeping forward, may stand down. Its largely going to depend on the individual character and makeup of each group. There will be groups where this goes the other way. The $64 question is how will this break statistically.  I think the best we can hope for is 80/20 on out side  , but I suspect that 50/50 is probably more likly is such events were to occur.

[Sectionhand]

Who said they won't get paid ? Historically a certain number of men have always joined the army because they couldn't find a living in civilian life . I find the comparisons to the army of Nazi Germany particularly insulting . Anyone can come up with wild-eyed worst case scenarios . I know the the U.S. Military intimately and I find your prognostications well beyond reasonable credulity .

[Weisshaupt]

Who said they won't get paid ? Historically a certain number of men have always joined the army because they couldn't find a living in civilian life . I find the comparisons to the army of Nazi Germany particularly insulting . Anyone can come up with wild-eyed worst case scenarios . I know the the U.S. Military intimately and I find your prognostications well beyond reasonable credulity .

Its not my intention to provide insult - only to indicate there is a population of unknown size that joins the military and has no interest in their oath to protect the Constitution- much like congress.  I would be interested in your frank evaluation of how many units will refuse orders to confiscate weapons, round up or fire upon U.S. civilians given that the U.S. Military is now actively training for those scenarios.  I really don't know the answer. That guns were confiscated during Katrina by National Guard is a fact. That some units refused those orders, is a fact.  I haven't seen any evidence of what career military would do either way. I don't think its wild-eyed to suggest that some will refuse and some will not, though my 80/20 or 50/50 guesses may be entirely wrong.

Payment comes into question because the collapse, if it comes, will be in the form of dollar devaluation.  Yes, the government could print up the cash promised, but when that cash no longer buys anything, do we still consider the soldiers  paid? Will they?   There is nothing really very wild-eyed about that thought. Fiat currencies have failed everywhere and at every time in history they have ever been tried. We have a government currently printing dollars to pay its debts, we see inflation in foods and other commodities,  and its isn't hyperinflation yet because the amount of wealth destruction going on in CDS and other securities is so high, the actual velocity of the money is very low.  The fed show no signs of stopping, and with Europe imploding,  they will have to step in to keep banks in the U.S. solvent again. Meanwhile the Federal government continues to rack up ever more debt and has over 30 Trillion in liabilities.  The government is shooting for some high level of inflation - 8-15% that would allow them to keep things stable and to pay down that debt.  However, if there is a panic - either here or abroad, and the faith of the U.S. Government is questioned, a real collapse could ensue.  The government could either implement austerity measures resulting in the same strikes and civil strife erupting in Europe, they could issue bonds at higher interest rates forcing bankruptcy, or they could issue more currency. I suspect they will do some combination of all three, but the major component will be the last: dollar printing (really is dollar prinintg and loaning, with the tax payer onthe hook for the interest on the just created dollar) .

[Libertas]

"The government could either implement austerity measures resulting in the same strikes and civil strife erupting in Europe, they could issue bonds at higher interest rates forcing bankruptcy, or they could issue more currency. I suspect they will do some combination of all three, but the major component will be the last: dollar printing (really is dollar prinintg and loaning, with the tax payer onthe hook for the interest on the just created dollar) ."

The Neo-Keynesian's have boxed themselves into a corner and there is little they can do other than more of the same, so yes inflationary devaluation is coming.

As for the rest, I shudder at the prospect of any level of our Armed Forces turning on us, I know many serving who I think will refuse such unlawful orders, especially if directed from the SCoaMF occupying the WH at present, but could some blindly follow such orders?  I cannot say some would not, and that makes my blood run cold.  God spare us that day, because that alone will guarantee a protracted civil war!

[Sectionhand]

Who said they won't get paid ? Historically a certain number of men have always joined the army because they couldn't find a living in civilian life . I find the comparisons to the army of Nazi Germany particularly insulting . Anyone can come up with wild-eyed worst case scenarios . I know the the U.S. Military intimately and I find your prognostications well beyond reasonable credulity .

Its not my intention to provide insult - only to indicate there is a population of unknown size that joins the military and has no interest in their oath to protect the Constitution- much like congress.  I would be interested in your frank evaluation of how many units will refuse orders to confiscate weapons, round up or fire upon U.S. civilians given that the U.S. Military is now actively training for those scenarios.  I really don't know the answer. That guns were confiscated during Katrina by National Guard is a fact. That some units refused those orders, is a fact.  I haven't seen any evidence of what career military would do either way. I don't think its wild-eyed to suggest that some will refuse and some will not, though my 80/20 or 50/50 guesses may be entirely wrong.

Payment comes into question because the collapse, if it comes, will be in the form of dollar devaluation.  Yes, the government could print up the cash promised, but when that cash no longer buys anything, do we still consider the soldiers  paid? Will they?   There is nothing really very wild-eyed about that thought. Fiat currencies have failed everywhere and at every time in history they have ever been tried. We have a government currently printing dollars to pay its debts, we see inflation in foods and other commodities,  and its isn't hyperinflation yet because the amount of wealth destruction going on in CDS and other securities is so high, the actual velocity of the money is very low.  The fed show no signs of stopping, and with Europe imploding,  they will have to step in to keep banks in the U.S. solvent again. Meanwhile the Federal government continues to rack up ever more debt and has over 30 Trillion in liabilities.  The government is shooting for some high level of inflation - 8-15% that would allow them to keep things stable and to pay down that debt.  However, if there is a panic - either here or abroad, and the faith of the U.S. Government is questioned, a real collapse could ensue.  The government could either implement austerity measures resulting in the same strikes and civil strife erupting in Europe, they could issue bonds at higher interest rates forcing bankruptcy, or they could issue more currency. I suspect they will do some combination of all three, but the major component will be the last: dollar printing (really is dollar prinintg and loaning, with the tax payer onthe hook for the interest on the just created dollar) .

Sorry . I ain't buyin' what your sellin' .

[Weisshaupt]

Sorry . I ain't buyin' what your sellin' .

Which part?  That there is some portion of the U.S. Armed forces that will follow unconstitutional orders, or that there is a very real danger of dollar devaluation? Both?   Why are you not "buying it"? What evidence/reasoning leads you to the conclusion that I am full of it? Maybe I am.

[Pandora]

A certain number will stay "loyal" to the military establishment simply to keep their families fed and housed by it.

[AlanS]

A certain number will stay "loyal" to the military establishment simply to keep their families fed and housed by it.

I thought soldiers with families lived off base? I would pray they paid attention when sworn in and defend the Constitution when the feces hits the blades.

[trapeze]

As an aside, my son arrived in Kyrghastan over the weekend. He is living in a heated tent with 300 other soldiers. Within the next 24 to 48 hours he will arrive in Kandahar.

He joined the Army for a variety of reasons and he did so with the knowledge that he would be sent to a war zone.

[Libertas]

As an aside, my son arrived in Kyrghastan over the weekend. He is living in a heated tent with 300 other soldiers. Within the next 24 to 48 hours he will arrive in Kandahar.

He joined the Army for a variety of reasons and he did so with the knowledge that he would be sent to a war zone.

May God bless and watch over him!