Author Topic: New Debt Graphs  (Read 1457 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Weisshaupt

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5733
New Debt Graphs
« on: January 31, 2012, 12:20:15 PM »
Since our trillion dollar deficit made the news again,  thought I would post new graphs.
These are made using data from debt to the penny again.
I estimated 2012 using the YTD number and then assuming that same rate for the rest of the year in both inter-government and regulat debt.
That isn't strictly kosher since expenditures rise and fall over the year, and the amount of intra-government debt is pretty much capped by contributions to pensions etc, so the number projected is probably high, but in the right ball park, +/- 100 Billion or so.







Offline Libertas

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 63974
  • Alea iacta est! Libertatem aut mori!
Re: New Debt Graphs
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2012, 07:17:54 AM »
Paper, paper, paper!!!

That will take care of that!!!

 ::falldownshocked::
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Libertas

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 63974
  • Alea iacta est! Libertatem aut mori!
Re: New Debt Graphs
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2012, 07:15:58 AM »
How not a coincidence that Weisshaupts graphs above start blowing up about the same time as this one below, and in the Obama years stay at stratospheric levels...



http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-charting-federal-reserves-assets-1915-2012

No surprise that toxic sh*t has been piled on with glutonous lust in the Obama era!

This will end well, eh?

 ::outrage::
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Online Weisshaupt

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5733
Re: New Debt Graphs
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2012, 10:33:09 AM »
That key is wrong.

The red should be labeled:

Loans made to taxpayers so they could buy toxic assets

Offline Libertas

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 63974
  • Alea iacta est! Libertatem aut mori!
Re: New Debt Graphs
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2012, 11:56:29 AM »
Also, taxpayers are forced to buy this toxic waste, we have no choice in the matter!

 ::gaah::

Time to take our choice making ability back!
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Libertas

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 63974
  • Alea iacta est! Libertatem aut mori!
Re: New Debt Graphs
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2012, 07:46:48 AM »
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Online Weisshaupt

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5733
Re: New Debt Graphs
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2012, 08:06:09 AM »
Debt to GDP surpasses 101%.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/us-debt-gdp-passes-101-global-debt-ponzi-enters-its-final-stages

To infinity and beyond!

 ::fail::

No need to worry.  You see GDP  is in  Money /time, and debt is just in money. The ratio ends up having a unit involving only time, so  its meaningless.

Quote
That would clearly be nonsense. After all, debt (which is measured in currency units) and GDP (which is measured in currency units per unit of time) yields a ratio in units of pure time. There is nothing special about using a year as that unit. A year is the time that it takes for the earth to orbit the sun, which, except for seasonal industries like agriculture, has no particular economic significance.We should remember this from high school science: always pay attention to units of measurement. Get the units wrong and you are totally befuddled.

If economists did not habitually annualize quarterly GDP data and multiply quarterly GDP by four, Greece’s debt-to-GDP ratio would be four times higher than it is now. And if they habitually decadalized GDP, multiplying the quarterly GDP numbers by 40 instead of four, Greece’s debt burden would be 15%. From the standpoint of Greece’s ability to pay, such units would be more relevant, since it doesn’t have to pay off its debts fully in one year (unless the crisis makes it impossible to refinance current debt).
The fundamental problem that much of the world faces today is that investors are overreacting to debt-to-GDP ratios, fearful of some magic threshold, and demanding fiscal-austerity programs too soon. They are asking governments to cut expenditure while their economies are still vulnerable. Households are running scared, so they cut expenditures as well, and businesses are being dissuaded from borrowing to finance capital expenditures.The lesson is simple: We should worry less about debt ratios and thresholds, and more about our inability to see these indicators for the artificial – and often irrelevant – constructs that they are.

Yeah, and all those studies showing a direct correlation between that "meaningless ratio" and economic problems are just prattle , because I don't multiply the GDP by an arbitrary factor, and I think a quarter is a fourth and therefore multiple quarterly numbers by 4 if I want to estimate an annual number. What I dummy am I! Thanks for the correction professor!

Yes, I am sure an ratio of GDP to "annual principle and interest due"  would yield a similar result and have "the right units" -and have an even stronger correlation,  but that data isn't readily available in most cases - especially when you are doing surveys covering economic events over hundreds of years.  And this guy is a professor at Yale.  The problem is that clever people are also usually very clever at rationalization, and will stick to spewing crap like this so they can dismiss data rather confront the fact that the data shows them to be totally wrong.  Go ahead prof, divide by 4, and the ratio where you will be in trouble will become divided by 4 as well, and you will still be in trouble when you reach it.  Likewise, multiply the number by 40, and the ratio where you are in trouble will also be multiplied by 40.  Go on you Yale certified moron, tell me why that has significant impact if I am trying to figure out when debt levels lead to calamity?

But wait, the real problem is people, not listening to your infinite wisdom

Quote
What is really happening in Greece is the operation of a social-feedback mechanism. Something started to cause investors to fear that Greek debt had a slightly higher risk of eventual default. Lower demand for Greek debt caused its price to fall, meaning that its yield in terms of market interest rates rose. The higher rates made it more costly for Greece to refinance its debt, creating a fiscal crisis that has forced the government to impose severe austerity measures, leading to public unrest and an economic collapse that has fueled even greater investor skepticism about Greece’s ability to service its debt.

You see, you should let us borrow more because we are just sure that will work. The problem is the people who are paying enough attention to realize that, at some point, growth in  public revenues won't be able to keep up with interest payments and further borrowing. Its like they can do math or something!  And because those silly equations indicate that this simply can't keep on, without cuts in spending, they panic, instead of relying on the opinions of  Ivy league blowhards that reality and math don't matter.



« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 08:23:50 AM by Weisshaupt »

Offline Libertas

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 63974
  • Alea iacta est! Libertatem aut mori!
Re: New Debt Graphs
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2012, 08:17:06 AM »
Good comments Weisshaupt, spot on!  This jackass will learn soon enough that reality in not an option!   ::thumbsup::
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Online Pandora

  • Administrator
  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 19529
  • I iz also makin a list. U on it pal.
Re: New Debt Graphs
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2012, 09:45:21 AM »
Good comments Weisshaupt, spot on!  This jackass will learn soon enough that reality in not an option!   ::thumbsup::

Is that guy saying "it's not as bad as it looks; we just need to think about it differently"?
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Online Weisshaupt

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5733
Re: New Debt Graphs
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2012, 10:08:36 AM »
Is that guy saying "it's not as bad as it looks; we just need to think about it differently"?

No, I think he is claiming that only superstition and random irrationality leads people to believe that a government will reach a point where it won't pay its debts.
There isn't a hard and fast rule about what GDP/Debt ratio will cause a failure. The details do matter- interest rates, the term of the debt, the GDP growth rate, etc.  But historical analysis indicates that as that ratio gets larger,  the risk of a default gets greater.  So you could argue that 90% or 100% isn't all that worrisome, given XYZ. The big expection in our case is that the United States has the reserve currency, meaning that effectively we cannot default, because we can always print more (that is what more means)  As a result the "tipping point" or "point of no return" is proably much higher than it has been for countires who effectively had to borrow from other countires in a currency other than their own.  China owns debt in U.S. Dollars.  Argentina when it defaulted ALSO owned debt denominated  US dollars, so couldn't just "print up" the required amount.  Greece is in the same boat, owing Euros it can't just print.

Problem is, other countries can refuse to buy or use dollar, and will do so more and more often the more we print our debt away. The major factor keeping the dollar in play is Oil, as the majority of the supply can still be obtained only by using dollars as the currency. As that changes ( and a war in the Middle East could end up changing that overnight) the dollar becomes less important and easier to simply refuse.  101% probably isn't our tipping point because of these factors.  It may be 120% Maybe 150% Maybe 200% - no one knows for sure.  But the tipping point is out there, and there is no reason to expect the United States will be changing course before we reach it.
 



« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 12:02:56 PM by Weisshaupt »

Offline Libertas

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 63974
  • Alea iacta est! Libertatem aut mori!
Re: New Debt Graphs
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2012, 11:09:42 AM »
Yes, removing the dollar as reserve currency peg would reimpose a cieling on the level of shennanigans our government could do.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.