Topic: A Republic Not An Empire

[JohnnyW]

Just finished this book by Pat Buchanan, Great read. Lots of history.
I didn't realize the fork in the road came so long ago.

[charlesoakwood]

Where did Buchanan say the fork occurred.

[JohnnyW]

From what I understood, it began with president Wilson.

[IronDioPriest]

From what I understood, it began with president Wilson.

Doesn't Beck say a similar thing? I haven't watched Beck all that much to be honest, but I know that Wilson is at least a major progressive marker on his timeline.

[JohnnyW]

I don't keep up with GB. His antics drives me nuts.

[Pandora]

From what I understood, it began with president Wilson.

Doesn't Beck say a similar thing? I haven't watched Beck all that much to be honest, but I know that Wilson is at least a major progressive marker on his timeline.

Yes, Wilson put the "Progressive" on overdrive.

[Glock32]

I know it is a controversial thing, but I think you could say the US Federal government took on its "imperial" quality with the Civil War. All the usurpations by the Federal government since have depended, at least implicitly, on its willingness to use force of arms against one or more of the states that created it in the first place.

[charlesoakwood]

And a growing acceptance by the states. 
The 17th amendment passed in 1912 was another big
step states took in ceding their autonomy.

[IronDioPriest]

I know it is a controversial thing, but I think you could say the US Federal government took on its "imperial" quality with the Civil War. All the usurpations by the Federal government since have depended, at least implicitly, on its willingness to use force of arms against one or more of the states that created it in the first place.

Not only that, but the post-civil war amendments have been used to redefine the role of the federal government. When it comes right down to it, it wasn't North vs South. It was the federal government vs sovereign states. The federal government won, and essentially the result was new rules going forward in response to the victory.

[radioman]

Ho Bait

That's what I call it. The federal government offers money to the states, the states take the money, and in return, the state just gave up its rights and became a slave to the feds.

All politicians accept Ho Bait and even brag about it to their constiuents, so that they can get relected. They use the slogan bring home the bacon, but what is happening, is the states relinquishing its rights for the money.

Fed issues regulations also, send funds to the states, and compliance has to follow.

All 50 states are now slaves to the federal government. No guns, just Ho Bait.

Earmarks, and all of its kissing cousins.......Ho Bait.

The sole purpose of all acronym departments like the department of education is to send money to the states for compliance. Ho Bait.

[Glock32]

Ho Bait

That's what I call it. The federal government offers money to the states, the states take the money, and in return, the state just gave up its rights and became a slave to the feds.

All politicians accept Ho Bait and even brag about it to their constiuents, so that they can get relected. They use the slogan bring home the bacon, but what is happening, is the states relinquishing its rights for the money.

Fed issues regulations also, send funds to the states, and compliance has to follow.

All 50 states are now slaves to the federal government. No guns, just Ho Bait.

Earmarks, and all of its kissing cousins.......Ho Bait.

The sole purpose of all acronym departments like the department of education is to send money to the states for compliance. Ho Bait.

Yes, money that was taken from the states in the first place. It then gets chewed up in the maw of Washington DC and, like a mother bird, some small fraction of it regurgitated back into the mouths of its chicks.

But oh, they say, if this model is not used then the poorest states will not have the resources to implement Leviathan's dictates. So we must have it seized from the citizens of all the states, doled back out disproportionately and with an enormous cut to the house, in what is really just another form of wealth redistribution.

[Pandora]

Before the Civil War, we were these United States.  After, THE United States.

[Glock32]

Indeed.  I recall making that point on here back at the old site. The USA was always referred to in the plural; since in the singular. It is a grammatical subtlety that says much about what transpired.

[Pandora]

Indeed.  I recall making that point on here back at the old site. The USA was always referred to in the plural; since in the singular. It is a grammatical subtlety that says much about what transpired.

I didn't remember you said that.  I've slept since then. 

[Glock32]

Indeed.  I recall making that point on here back at the old site. The USA was always referred to in the plural; since in the singular. It is a grammatical subtlety that says much about what transpired.

I didn't remember you said that.  I've slept since then. 

That was back when I was deliberately using the plural in reference to the USA, in the thinking that it might cause people to notice its oddity and wonder about it. I figure it's a lost cause by now.

[Libertas]

I often wonder if the post Civil War era would have been different if Lincoln had not been killed.  It is apparent in my reading of the man that the things done during the war were to be temporary in nature, apart from freeing the slaves that is.  It does not mean that another President could not come along later and do the same things, but it would have had to rise to the level of another civil war to trigger it.  I think had Lincoln lived he may have been able to reign in the hotheads in congress who helped grow the imperial state and the weak presidency of Andrew Johnson ensured harsh measures during Reconstruction would go unchallenged.  In that regard I find it ironic that perhpas the South would have been better off after the war had Lincoln lived.

Beck likes to blame Wilson and Teddy Roosevelt for accelaerating the rise of the progressive imperial state, but it seems to me that Teddy was much more progressive when he broke away and formed the Bull Moose Party.  And FDR just took it all to a whole new and disasterous level, and we are still paying that price today.

[LadyVirginia]

There's always been tension between the  idea of a strong federal government and the authority of the states from the time independence was declared.  George Washington saw the problem with trying to conduct the war without a federal government to pay and muster troops.  He was frustrated with having to contact every state government to get what he needed. But he had to walk a fine line--the war was about throwing off tyranny yet there was some need for centalization and unity in action and the imposition of rules. Washington among others believed the growth of the US would come through an expansion west and that would come through the federal govenment. The war was about independence and nation-building for many of the Founders.

Many of the issues we discuss today the Founders were well aware of--they were not all on the same "side".  Washington and Jefferson were often at odds.  Many of the early patriots lined up behind one ot the other and plotted and planned to push their agendas. 

[Weisshaupt]

 The foundets took sides basef on degree. How much power was too much for the Fed.
They all agreed there was such a point. The left doesnt believe there should be sny limit,
The civil war did set the stage for that, becausr Lincoln was determined to not only
Put the union back together, and prevent slavery from spreading to the frontier, but to
Force the states with a Constitutional right to slavery to abolish it. The south rejoined under force
And had to accept amendments they had no hand in crafting.

I am not bemoaning the loss of slavery, but this did begin the modern era for Federal power
and now we will probably fight anothet civil war to strike a new balance

[Libertas]

Could be a short fight Weisshaupt, I wake up, see what's going on and am as much (if not even more) torked off at the lack of concern of my fellow citizens at what is happening.  I often find myself damning them and walling off any sympathy for what awaits them.

[Glock32]

Could be a short fight Weisshaupt, I wake up, see what's going on and am as much (if not even more) torked off at the lack of concern of my fellow citizens at what is happening.  I often find myself damning them and walling off any sympathy for what awaits them.

The cynic in me says it is no coincidence that for most of human history, Man's condition has been one of bondage. Is our entire civilization just an anomalous blip on the radar? Now the masses, grown fat and comfortable on the sacrifices of generations past, are regressing to the mean?