Author Topic: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk  (Read 3437 times)

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Offline Libertas

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Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« on: February 13, 2012, 12:14:24 PM »
Yeah, because you know unpasteurized milk is the greatest threat in the...nation...today...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/feb/13/feds-shut-down-amish-farm-selling-fresh-milk/print/

What a massive overreach!!!  This is so pathetic...

"By crossing state lines it became part of interstate commerce, and thus subject to the FDA's ban."

BS!  Eff the FDA!

 ::doublebird::



We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2012, 12:18:57 PM »

"By crossing state lines it became part of interstate commerce, and thus subject to the FDA's ban."


According to the Supreme court, making and drinking that milk on your own farm and not selling it to anyone is "interstate commerce"
I am pleased that in this case there was actually a state line involved.

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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2012, 12:28:21 PM »
Quote
After the FDA first took action Mr. Allgyer changed his business model. He arranged to sell shares in the cows themselves to his customers, arguing that they owned the milk and he was only transferring it to them.

But Judge Stengel called that deal "merely a subterfuge."

"The practical result of the arrangement is that consumers pay money to Mr. Allgyer and receive raw milk," the judge wrote in a 13-page opinion.

Really.  Wonder what Judge Stengel thinks of Duh Wun's "accomodation" to the Catholic Church.
 
I don't give a crap WHAT the FDA thinks about raw milk being unhealthy; it ought not be their business

The government is too big, the FDA needs to go --- brokenrecordbrokenrecordbrokenrecord ........
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Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2012, 01:19:26 PM »
Oh, those Amish!  They'll be the ruin of this country if we don't stop them.

I guess the FDA finally decided they weren't going to put up with that!  I've seen articles about people buying eggs and milk this way--they own the animal and retrieve the product when its available.

Meanwhile, I just read another article about how Monsanto's Roundup pesticide has been linked to numerous, documented birth defects but the information has been covered up for years and the gov has gone along with them. (Sorry I don't have a link.) I guess Monsanto's lobbying budget is larger than the Amish's.

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Offline michelleo

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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2012, 03:16:04 PM »
Yet another encroachment on freedom by our government.  I wish I could convince more people at the caucus the other night that the Catholic church contraceptive issue is just one of many ways the government is trampling on our rights of conscience and individual liberty. If more conservatives don't wake up soon, our liberties will be lost forever.

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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2012, 03:35:33 PM »
Did most there buy into the faulty premise, michelle?

I'd be most interested in hearing how things went, what you heard, saw and said.
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Offline BigAlSouth

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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2012, 05:40:06 PM »
IIRC, the Fed "raid" on the Amish Dairy Farm was a travesty. Lucky nobody got shot.
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Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2012, 05:59:12 PM »
IIRC, the Fed "raid" on the Amish Dairy Farm was a travesty. Lucky nobody got shot.

He must not have had any dogs. I hear they like to practice on dogs (or is that SWAT teams?)  >:(

Offline michelleo

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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2012, 06:35:12 PM »
Did most there buy into the faulty premise, michelle?

I'd be most interested in hearing how things went, what you heard, saw and said.

The Catholic church contraception issue was the one galvanizing point in the room.  When I suggested that one of the Republican party's planks should be to strengthen the 1st amendment to clarify a right of conscience, I didn't get a lot of comment.  I went on that the government is intruding in many aspects of our lives and shouldn't have the power to tell us what to eat, what to drive, what to buy, how we express our religious beliefs in public, etc.  I talked about how Obamacare was a violation to our right of conscience on many levels. Catholic churches should not be required to pay for people's contraceptives/abortions, but neither should any individual either (through taxation).  It shouldn't be up to government to mandate what we must buy from private companies.  The natural progression of Obamacare is that government will mandate what we are allowed and/or required to eat.  Treatment will be mandated by government, not a decision made between me and my doctor.  Our rights are being stripped from us by government in many ways that go beyond Obamacare, too.  The conversation kept steering back to how the contraception requirement was a violation of freedom of religion.  I couldn't seem to get many folks to think beyond that.  

It made me see first hand the divide that's happening among the Right.  There are those for whom social conservatism is the primary issue of importance, and then there are those for whom individual liberty and fiscal responsibility are the primary issues.  One younger fellow (late 30s) chimed in he might offend some, but thinks we have to start caring a lot less about making abortions illegal than guaranteeing liberty for all.  There were quite a few who chimed in they didn't agree with him at all.  

When I added that I thought many of the battles on social issues (gay marriage, abortion) need to be fought culturally not legislatively, I got quite a bit of pushback.  No one can legislatively dictate that anyone accept a gay couple as "married" under God. Shouldn't it be up to churches to decide under what circumstances they would perform a marriage ceremony?  By a right of conscience, a government cannot mandate any church to perform same-sex marriage ceremonies, and a government cannot force you to accept a civil union as a moral equivalent of a marriage.  Then someone chimed in that the Republican party needs to make a clear moral stand by seeking a ban on abortion and an amendment that says a marriage is between one man and one woman.   Then the younger fellow said, "Do you really think we should start throwing women and their doctors in jail for having/performing abortions?"  Again, I would argue that we should fight that fight culturally (by convincing people a fetus is a person, that pregnancy is a blessing, and that adoption is a gift not a shame) not legislatively (by prosecuting women who have abortions).

I tried to make a larger point that the country is headed for some serious social conflict if we don't start butting out of each other's lives.  If we believe WE can dictate the decisions of others based on our morality, then we have to concede that the government can dictate decisions for us based on "social justice" or "common good".  I don't think there were very many people in the room who agreed with me.

Other topics discussed:

- Term limits for Senate (2 terms) and Congress (4 terms).  
- Bills need to be single item topic only or word-limited - no more 3000 page bills
- Balanced budget amendment
- Flat tax

Offline John Florida

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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2012, 07:51:20 PM »
  What the hell is so hard about people wanting the freedom to eat and drink a healthy glass of milk. ::angry::
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Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2012, 07:52:14 PM »
I have to respectfully disagree, Michelleo.

The most powerful witness for my faith and convictions I can make is to fight for it publicly, in the public square and in our democratic institutions.

I truly believe that an unborn child has a right to live.  Trying to separate social issues out from other issues is folly.  If I truly believe that an unborn child has a right to live, it behooves me to do everything I can to protect that child including fight for its protection legislatively.  I don't believe trying to convince everyone that a baby is a person will work to save many babies. We do that now through various pro-life organizations.  

Many people look to laws as a way to decide what's right.

George Washington at first believed he could conduct the war solely on the strength of belief in the cause.  That fizzled out after about 6 months.  He had to rely on stiff penalties and promises of money to keep the troops from deserting when the going got tough.

We as a society "butt" into each others lives when we see a need to prevent harm.  We don't allow men to beat women for whatever reason they may justify it.  Are we to hope that if we explain to the man that the woman is a person worthy of life he'll change his ways? Why must we butt out of a woman's decision to kill her baby?  We don't have an obligation to protect a woman from a beating and a baby from death?

 We have a right as citizens to express our opinions and to codify those views.  I will not concede that because I am granted those rights under our Constitution that I am reciprocally granting those same to the Government.
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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2012, 09:06:02 PM »
Quote
When I added that I thought many of the battles on social issues (gay marriage, abortion) need to be fought culturally not legislatively, I got quite a bit of pushback.  No one can legislatively dictate that anyone accept a gay couple as "married" under God.

Unfortunately for us, that is just what the Left is trying to do, repeatedly, legislate their social issues.  And when they can't get what they want legislatively, they go to the courts.  Please correct me if I misunderstand what you mean by "accept".

Quote
Shouldn't it be up to churches to decide under what circumstances they would perform a marriage ceremony?  By a right of conscience, a government cannot mandate any church to perform same-sex marriage ceremonies, and a government cannot force you to accept a civil union as a moral equivalent of a marriage.

It should be up to the churches, but after Obama's foray into contraception/abortion, how long before it won't be their decision?  Again, I may have misinterpreted who it is you mean by "force YOU to accept a civil union ..."; I take it to mean heteros; perhaps you meant gays.

We, "the laity", have had the right of free association grossly degraded by "civil rights" legislation enhanced by the courts and it is with it the courts have rendered us unable, in some states, to refuse trade with homosexuals now.

Working just through the culture is not a viable option right now with the Left seeking to enshrine their desires into law.
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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2012, 10:49:01 PM »

One would think free association and civil rights are synonyms.
I mean in a natural world.

Offline michelleo

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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2012, 12:00:55 AM »
Even in states where "gay marriage" is now legal, I'm certain there are quite a few people living in those states who will not in their hearts view those gay people as married in the presence of God.   By "accept" I mean accept in their hearts as a marriage sanctioned by God.  They will continue to see the law as an affront to their morality, and the use of the term "marriage" an affront to the institution of marriage between a man and woman.  Obamacare is the law now, but I will under no circumstances consider it constitutional, and I will not comply.  If churches are told by government they must perform marriage ceremonies for gays, they should not comply.

"force YOU to accept a civil union ..." - same thing.  The whole reason that gays push so hard to make "gay marriage" legal is precisely because they think that it will lead to acceptance in society for their lifestyle.  (It will not.)  Otherwise a new civil contract outside of marriage would suffice for them.  I have no problem if two widowed sisters want to form a civil union because they want the other to be in charge of their assets, health directives, etc. Same goes for any two people - gay or straight.  Just don't call it marriage.  A government cannot force people to accept lifestyles they morally abhor.

Quote
We as a society "butt" into each others lives when we see a need to prevent harm
 

I guess the question is one of degree of butting in. Here is a case where the government sees a need to prevent harm by preventing people from consuming (or giving to their kids to consume) fresh milk that could be harboring dangerous bacteria.  I see it as government encroachment. If people want to assume that risk, then so be it.  


Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2012, 10:53:41 AM »
Trying to separate social issues out from other issues is folly.


Morality and Government are separate issues. They are intertwined and interact , to be sure, but if you fight the social/moral  battles now, you will loose the war. We are fighting a battle for the culture: That means we must eventually take back the Media, the Schools, the Churches and the Government. However, if your plan involves seizing the government, and then using it as a weapon against your fellow man to take back the other institutions, you will defeat the entire purpose. Every revolution that ever used the government for a purge ended up more totalitarian and worse off than when they started. The French Revolution and the terror, Stalin and his purges, and so on. If you want America back as the Founders gave it to us, how we win is just as, if not more, important, than winning.

Quote from: Pandora
Unfortunately for us, that is just what the Left is trying to do, repeatedly, legislate their social issues.  And when they can't get what they want legislatively, they go to the courts....Working just through the culture is not a viable option right now with the Left seeking to enshrine their desires into law.

This is like the One Ring.  We dare not use it. We must restore the government to its rightful purpose:  to protect the natural rights of its citizens. To use it to impose our social vision  only justifies the left's use of it in that same  way. If we can push the government back out of the social arena, we can then work culturally to enact the needed changes- through persuasion. And yes, that persuasion should include the right to hire who you want, the right to rent to who you want, and the right to publically  censure people who act in ways you feel are undesirable.  Freedom can sometimes mean some pretty unpleasant things - it means that a Racist restaurant owner can run an all-white lunch counter, or make blacks stand while they eat. You cannot force him to stop.  It also means the rest of us are free to not eat at his establishment, and socially shun those that do. All of the lefts "equality" and "equal opportunity" crap was to shut down the main tools of social censure. Why did the Irish change their ways at the turn of the Century? Because they couldn't get a job and they couldn't sue over it. Instead they had to police their own- via Social stigma and censure.  

If I truly believe that an unborn child has a right to live, it behooves me to do everything I can to protect that child including fight for its protection legislatively.  I don't believe trying to convince everyone that a baby is a person will work to save many babies....Many people look to laws as a way to decide what's right.

And declaring in law that Gay people married will convince you that they are, and make you treat them as such? At one time Slavery was the law of the land, in the constitution and ratified by every State of the Union.. did that make it right? People do not look to the law to decide right from wrong, they look to it to see what they can get away with- to see what the potential consequences are.  Liberals, having no internal moral compass, often feel the Law is Morality and vice-versa, because the government has become their Church and their God.  We should know better.

YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE MORALITY. Morality and a moral compass are developed internally, spiritually, and no HUMAN law can bring them into being within , or dispel them from an individual. "Salvation is not a Group Activity" - Passing a law will not make an individual moral.. it only imposes consequences on the individual. Gun Laws don't get guns out of the hands of Criminals. Drug Laws don't prevent people from doing drugs, and abortion laws will not stop people from getting abortions, and laws forbidding Gays to marry will not prevent them from sinful acts.

The government's mandate is to protect the rights of others- to prevent and punish individuals that cause harm to others. Is abortion such harm? I think so, but then I think a baby is a person, and sadly that determination is the one that is in dispute. No one has the authority to say when life begins, when a fetus is given a soul, self awareness,  or even which qualities must be present for "personhood."  Our natural right of conscience is one that allows EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL to determine right from wrong on their own. Madison's original 1st Amendment read:

"The Civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any National Religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext be  infringed"

We chafe when the Left denies us that right- denies us the right to give to our own charities, to withhold money from abortion clinics, to follow our own moral compass in our dealings with the world. God's Laws belong to God, and let him enforce them. John 8:3.  This isn't to say that you do not speak out, that you do not minster and testify to others your belief that a Baby is a person, and that abortion is a transgression against God and God's laws. But,as  I said, freedom means allowing some pretty ugly things, and this is the worst. However, can you imagine standing before God and having to admit that you killed your own child? Judgement Day will come.  But not here and not now, and not by your hand. Trying to use the government as a tool to bludgeon the wicked into righteousness, never has and never will work.

George Washington at first believed he could conduct the war solely on the strength of belief in the cause.  That fizzled out after about 6 months.  He had to rely on stiff penalties and promises of money to keep the troops from deserting when the going got tough.

Washington had to bend to practical reality and the limits of human nature. The practical reality is that people who would or could  abort their own children are unfit parents and would raise those children to be foot soldiers for the enemy. You cannot make them better parents, and we could not find other homes for 1 million babies a year, many of whom would be disabled and maimed by drug use.

Are we to hope that if we explain to the man that the woman is a person worthy of life he'll change his ways? Why must we butt out of a woman's decision to kill her baby?  We don't have an obligation to protect a woman from a beating and a baby from death?

Because no one is disagreeing that an adult woman is a "person"  and therefore under the protection of the government, where-as they do dispute the person-ness of a fetus.  You do have a moral obligation to make the argument for the baby , loudly and often, but that obligation does not go so far as to deprive another person of their natural rights, even though you believe the natural rights of the fetus are being violated. And don't get me wrong, I would support a person-hood amendment in a heartbeat - but to win this battle you need a personhood amendment to pass - meaning it has garnered support of a super majority of the people.  Trying to impose it by any lesser means will be counter productive and seen as oppression. Convincing a super-majoirty that you are right in determining  a baby is a person, means winning the culture war first.  

Do do that  the government must be  pushed back into its rightful place - out of the moral sphere, leaving us then free to heal the culture without the burden of supporting their warped views.  Until the people are made righteous by pursuasion and argument ( and just flat smaking against the wall of reality) , you cannot get laws that are righteous. Fighting to implement righteous laws over an unrighteous people will end in disaster. Engaging in these social battles now, and using government  force to win them,  will cost us the war,  to the ultimate ruin of all we are trying to accomplish. Morality must come first, and cannot be forced. A law would not force you to accept homosexuality as normal, and a Law will not make a homosexual refrain from deviant  acts. Likewise, a law legalizing abortion  does not make you accept the practice, nor will a law forbidding it change the minds of those who feel the procedure is moral.  

"Virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government." - George Washington

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Benjamin Franklin

"The institution of delegated power implies that there is a portion of virtue and honor among mankind which may be a reasonable foundation of confidence." - Alexander Hamilton

"To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea." - James Madison

"No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and . . . . their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice . . . . These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government." -Thomas Jefferson

"Bad men cannot make good citizens. It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, is incompatible with freedom. No free government, or the blessings of liberty, can be preserved to any people but by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance, frugality, and virtue; and by a frequent recurrence to fundamental principles." - Patrick Henry

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

"[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt. He therefore is the truest friend of the liberty of his country who tries most to promote its virtue, and who, so far as his power and influence extend, will not suffer a man to be chosen onto any office of power and trust who is not a wise and virtuous man." - Samuel Adams

"It is better to cherish virtue and humanity, by leaving much to free will, even with some loss of the object , than to attempt to make men mere machines and instruments of political benevolence. The world on the whole will gain by a liberty, without which virtue cannot exist." -Edmund Burke

"We must follow the example of Solon who gave the Athenians not the best government he could devise, but the best they would receive" -Butler

"Righteousness exalteth a nation."  Proverbs 14:34
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 12:49:38 PM by Weisshaupt »

Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2012, 06:09:10 PM »
I'm not suggesting that government be used to impose any morality on anyone in a tyrannical way. But most communities throughout history have found it necessary to impose a moral code through its civil laws.  The purpose of laws that reference a moral code is not to impose a morality on someone else --it is to protect those who live by that morality. Is the Constitution seeking to impose laws on anyone or is it seeking to protect those rights it defines?

A law against stealing may not convince someone that stealing is bad but it will protect me and my property through enforcement (by taking that person off the street and maybe deterring others).  I doubt my telling the thief it's wrong and hope they agree will be as effective as spending time in jail and contemplating their choices and then perhaps seeing their faulty thinking.

We live in a time in which there are people being raised without a sense of morality and will probably never understand what that is.  I know people who look to the law to determine what is right and not just what they can get away with.  Therefore, if something is legalized it must be okay.

"And declaring in law that Gay people married will convince you that they are, and make you treat them as such? At one time Slavery was the law of the land, in the constitution and ratified by every State of the Union.. did that make it right? People do not look to the law to decide right from wrong, they look to it to see what they can get away with- to see what the potential consequences are.  Liberals, having no internal moral compass, often feel the Law is Morality and vice-versa, because the government has become their Church and their God.  We should know better."

I do but I don't live among people who do.  And that is exactly why we enact laws based on what is moral. I have no doubt there are people who could sleep at night because the law allowed slaves. There are people who have lived in a world in which abortion is permitted through law and thus it has become so common and culturally accepted in certain circles that they are implicitly relying on the law to protect that "right". 

If we were to depend on not using the law and hoping that culturally we could change minds then we'd have no need for any laws at all.  I hate the over regulations we live under but honestly many of them come because people are too stupid to self-regulate.  And you may say it's no ones business if they engage in certain behaviors and I believe that is true to a certain extent. (I don't care if people drink raw milk.)

 BUT I believe there's a balance and that all good people have a right to discuss and determine what that balance is.  If a community decides to restrict cell phone use they may do so because they've found in their community that is a big concern.  And if there is someone in  that community who believes that talking on a cell phone is a moral questions because its use puts people at risk for harm they certainly can make that argument in order to try to persuade the others.  Likewise some one can make the argument that it actually infringes on God-given rights or that God shouldn't have anything to do with it.  Which ever side wins, the loser will not doubt cry that someone else's morality is being imposed on him.

We often legislate morality because we as a society recognize that not all people operate under any moral code.  Thus we were given the Ten Commandments. And because people often don't operate according to any faith dictates that would embrace the Commandments, civil laws must be imposed and enforced.

The word morality has been bastardized to mean whatever "I" decide is moral.  So the left is able to shout don't impose your morality on me and get away with it. And people who otherwise might be turned off by the idea of gay marriage in fact are willing to be supporters because they are afraid someone could say to them  that their own behavior is immoral and they don't want to be told that.  Today it seems that term  "morality" is only being used as a reference to "social" issues many of which have to do with sexual behavior.  No one seems worried about laws that impose their morality as far as theft is concerned.

We're in a world living off the fumes of a Judeo-Christian world in which many would like to believe that everyone will get along if we just explain the reasonableness of our argument. What I and many of my friends call "morality" is based on that Judeo-Christian code. The Founding Fathers recognized that faith had a part in self-governance.  Many today raised with those Judeo-Christian values are now raising their children without them.  My sister-in-law (who I love to pieces) is raising her children without reference to any moral code based on faith.  She's a nice person and her husband is a nice person and she presumes she'll raise nice children.  But she fails to recognize she is giving her children nothing upon which to make choices and recognize some things as intrinsically immoral.  They will be left with their feelings and the law to decide.  We know how how terrible life can be with a codified moral code.  I can only imagine how nasty it will become when the ones who look to the law (written without reference to a moral code) as justification out number those relying on culturally changing their minds.

("The practical reality is that people who would or could  abort their own children are unfit parents and would raise those children to be foot soldiers for the enemy. You cannot make them better parents, and we could not find other homes for 1 million babies a year, many of whom would be disabled and maimed by drug use."  I take exception to that broad statement. I know women who seriously considered it.  They didn't and are thankful they didn't and are wonderful parents. Likewise I wouldn't make the opposite statement that people who wouldn't or couldn't abort their own children are fit parents.  If we lived in a society that valued babies as human beings we would find homes for many if not all.  And would there be a 1 million a year that needed homes? I doubt it.  If we returned to valuing the benefits of family and raising children in a family perhaps there would be less abortions because instead of 1.2 children every family would have 2.2 or 3 or 4.  Or singles and marrieds would be interested in adopting here and not be forced to consider international adoptions. I also happen to think the lives of babies from mothers who are drug users are worthy of life. And not all abortions are performed on the poor and drug addicted. I find it an odd suggestion that we cannot "make" potential aborters better parents but we could culturally persuade them that abortion or any other social issue is wrong.).
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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2012, 12:54:07 AM »
I'm not suggesting that government be used to impose any morality on anyone in a tyrannical way. But most communities throughout history have found it necessary to impose a moral code through its civil laws. The purpose of laws that reference a moral code is not to impose a morality on someone else --it is to protect those who live by that morality.

Our commnuity is unique in history. We agreed that we would not do this, at least at the Federal level.  The 1st amendment is the codification of that agreement. We agreed that Harm was the criterion for a law, not morality, values or belief..  That makes the United States unique in all of human history, and the reason why our government is only suited for a moral and virtuous people capable of regulating themselves.   

We live in a time in which there are people being raised without a sense of morality and will probably never understand what that is.  I know people who look to the law to determine what is right and not just what they can get away with.  Therefore, if something is legalized it must be okay.....<snip>....  And that is exactly why we enact laws based on what is moral.

Sorry, I don't follow the reasoning. Because some (potentially immoral) person looks to the law to determine their morality,  you are justified in imposing your vision of morality on them using that vehicle?  I suppose there are "go along to get along" types out there who will just adapt to anything that comes down the pike. However, it seems the liberals have as good a claim to them as anyone else. Why should your version of Morality rule them, instead of Islam's and Sharia? Why not the hedonistic partisan/tribal Marxist morality of the Democrats? Because yours is "Best? According to who? Who is to decide?  If these people don't care, and have no opinion, and are content to let Law decide their morality,  then they get what they get. 

My experience with people with this attitude  is that they are of two types. One type seeks to use the law to justify opinions/values they already hold, not to form them.  The second adopts their opinions/values  from the tribe, and only honors law when their tribe is in charge. Neither is going to be controlled or swayed in their values by a law. They will however mobilize to defend the tribe and their egos from someone trying to force a law upon them. Fighting them on these issues now only bolsters their resolve, prevents us from returning government to its proper role, and makes us hypocrites for advocating only the substitution  of our own values instead of theirs, while simultaneously  justifying their use of the government for the same purpose.

If we were to depend on not using the law and hoping that culturally we could change minds then we'd have no need for any laws at all. 

Again, I am not following the logic. The laws and government exist to prevent one person from doing harm to another or infringing upon their rights - including the right of conscience.  Those laws need to be agreed to, and we agreed to a LIMITED system of making them - a system whose PRIMARY goal was the protection of an individuals rights, not the imposition of  a system of morals. If the  the system is used to create "positive law" - a mandate to behave a certain way because it is "good", or "right", or "best",  it has robbed its citizens of their right of conscience, the right to decide for themselves what is "good", "right" or "best." In that situation the government has  become the agent of a natural rights negation, rather than its protection.

I hate the over regulations we live under but honestly many of them come because people are too stupid to self-regulate.

Odd. That seem to be the same attitude the Democrat/liberal elite have about us. Its the same argument slave owners made for keeping slaves. If it is true, we ought to abandon the entire Republic now, because its based on the idea that the majority have this ability.   Our government is designed for free men, capable of self-regulation. Under no circumstances should we allow it to be corrupted for the sake of a minority incapable of understanding it or participating in it, or allow others to  use such  people as an excuse for turning it into a weapon against others who hold different opinions.

BUT I believe there's a balance and that all good people have a right to discuss and determine what that balance is.  If a community decides to restrict cell phone use they may do so because they've found in their community that is a big concern. And if there is someone in  that community who believes that talking on a cell phone is a moral questions because its use puts people at risk for harm they certainly can make that argument in order to try to persuade the others. Likewise some one can make the argument that it actually infringes on God-given rights or that God shouldn't have anything to do with it.  Which ever side wins, the loser will not doubt cry that someone else's morality is being imposed on him.

That balance was already agreed to in our founding documents and principles.  The person who wants the law should have to demonstrate how the cell phone use is causing harm to others - which is the only legitimate use of the law.   The use of a law to mandate certain behaviors because others find them "better" is exceeding the power that should or can be  be given safely to government. The Fed certainly has no power to mandate such things. Its just too damn dangerous a power for anyone to wield. The liberals wish that power from a desire to do good as well. Humans just can't be trusted with it.   

Don't Tempt Me Frodo!

We often legislate morality because we as a society recognize that not all people operate under any moral code.  Thus we were given the Ten Commandments. And because people often don't operate according to any faith dictates that would embrace the Commandments, civil laws must be imposed and enforced.

No, we legislate punishments because people can choose cause others harm. It does not follow that you also have a right to legislate to  make them eat all of their veggies,  or make them buy insurance, or go to church every Sunday, because that would be "best." Even then some harms may not be best served by state enforcement.  Should the state investigate and prosecute adultery? Its one of the 10 Commandments.  But if both spouses agree to an "open marriage" and they have relations with other like minded adults , can the rest of us have the right to jail, fine or punish them, when not one person directly involved thinks they were harmed?  Or what if a wife chooses to forgive her husband a foolish and unfaithful  transgression? Should the State deny her that right and send her husband to jail? Some harms ( like annoying cell phone useage)  are best punished outside a costly  formal system of law - though public censure, and with individuals deciding how best to deal with each situation - from annoyed looks to tearing them a new one, so simply refusing association.    A system of censure worked for thousands of years, and the liberals have been working to deny us that so that everyone starts looking to the government ot fullfill that function. Adopting that wolrdview  is only playing their game.


The word morality has been bastardized to mean whatever "I" decide is moral.  So the left is able to shout don't impose your morality on me and get away with it.

And the left's hypocrisy is rank, as it is the first thing they want to do to us. I do not think it follows that it is wise to follow them into the same hypocrisy in a quest for vengeance.


And people who otherwise might be turned off by the idea of gay marriage in fact are willing to be supporters because they are afraid someone could say to them  that their own behavior is immoral and they don't want to be told that. 


That is the unspoken deal all liberals wish to make.. I won't discuss your sins if you don't discuss mine.  But this isn't about pointing out sins, but judging and punishing them with the law, and the coercive force of government. I am not suggesting that we ignore their sins, only that coercive government laws isn't the way to address them when they do no direct harm to others.

  I can only imagine how nasty it will become when the ones who look to the law (written without reference to a moral code) as justification out number those relying on culturally changing their minds.

This only reinforces my former point- most of these people look to the law as justification for doing what  they already want to do. A corrupt law didn't form their opinion, it was made before the law was passed, and will be held after it is abolished. I do not see the unthinking"go along to get along"  types growing in number. Most people have their own opinions, no matter how misguided, nor how arrived upon, and they have a right to those opinions right up to the point where they start to infringe upon my rights.  My right to swing my fist ends at the tip of your nose. No matter how stupid I think they are, no matter how erroenous their views, I have no right to interfere till they hit the end of my nose.


  I take exception to that broad statement. I know women who seriously considered it.  They didn't and are thankful they didn't and are wonderful parents.

I wasn't making an absolute statement. The question is one of degree. As a practical measure,  how many of the aborted babies would be so lucky?
I am sure there are many women who would come to understand the value of a child after having a baby. There are probably many more who would abandon the child in a dumpster so they could do their next drug hit, or go out on the town.   "Considering" is a whole world away from actually acting. That a woman evaluates her choices is a good thing. That she arrives at the right choice is even more important.  A woman who has a baby growing inside  her and still cannot arrive at the right choice, scares the crap out of me as a parent. The vast majority of abortion patients are return visits, and I don't have high hopes that those cretins would care for a child, as they obviously can't even care for themselves. 

 
  If we lived in a society that valued babies as human beings we would find homes for many if not all. 

We don't (currently)  live in that society. We live in one where half of the population is willing to kill babies in the womb. Your point is taken that IF things were different, then we COULD  find room for them all. Things AREN'T different and passing laws making abortion illegal is not going to change that by any significant degree. Just because drug babies are worthy of life isn't going to make a lot of people sign up to take on the burden.  Imagining best case scenarios and what ifs isn't going to make unicorns appear or wishes come true. 

 
  I find it an odd suggestion that we cannot "make" potential aborters better parents but we could culturally persuade them that abortion or any other social issue is wrong.).

Yes, but persuasion is the only moral alternative open to us. Using force to make others behave the way we want when they are doing others no harm  is ALWAYS wrong. But given the process we agreed to in the constitition, we do not yet have what is needed to impose our judgement, and we aren't going to get it till we at least get others to obey and abide by that agreement.  There is no point to "working within the process" when liberals refuse to acknolweldge  there is one.  But using the same tools as the enemy, and  disregarding that process, and the promises implicit in it,  will not advance the couse of bringing that process back into play. On the contrary, it justifies the liberals abuse of it.

 I personally am very  serious when I say the only way to change a liberal's mind is with concussive blows to the head, but I don't have any illusions that is a moral approach. Like slavery, a war is needed, where the enemy is brutally wiped out, without remorse or mercy.  That isn't moral. That isn't Christian.  But its probably necessary. Like the slave owners of old, they are far to invested  to ever change.  War is the way all such differences have been settled in the past, and will probalby be resorted to again, because the process we put into place to avoid such things is being completely ignored by the other side. They don't care that they are violating the rights of others. They don't care they are causing harm. They feel completely justifed in their actions because they feel the ends justify the means,  which is why it is critically important that we do not fall to thier level, and remember what it is we are fighting for.  I would rather live in a Nation where our constitution and founding principles  were followed and we  hoped for an end to abortion, just as our founding fathers established this nation on those principles and hoped for an end to slavery.  In the end we had to fight each other over Slavery, because our founding principles were at odds with it, and I fear it will be much the same with abortion.

However, until we are decided upon a course of open war , we must keep to the high road and fight to the good fight within the system we agreed to. 

Offline John Florida

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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2012, 10:39:44 AM »
  LEGALIZE DRUGS------OUTLAW MILK........LEGALIZE DRUGS.... OUTLAW MILK.....LEGALIZE DRUGS.....OUTLAW MILK

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Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2012, 12:48:46 PM »
Weisshaupt,  I've read through your response several times and it doesn't make any sense to me.  You seemed to be stuck on the idea of imposing a moral code on others. I find that inflamatory and not unlike the response I get from my liberal friends when discussing similar issues.  I refuse to accept that definition. I'm not seeking to impose my "moral code" on anyone.  I also don't speak for the motives of others concerned about social issues.  I can only tell you how I think and feel.

I believe I have a right to appear in the arena and put forth my views and values in the debate.  And yes, those views and values are informed by my Christian values. As I said before no one gets up in arms about imposing a moral code when it comes to theft (or murder).  I reject the notion that the only way we will be successful is if we toss over social issues and focus only on the economic concerns.  (That's like pruning a plant while the roots are rotting away.  No society will ever be successful in the long term that does not recognize the value the life of all its members.) 

That's asking me to put aside my values for those who have none or different ones.  Why can't they put aside their values for me?  I believe on judgment day I will be asked to account for all my behaviors and decisions.  Yes, even who I voted for.  I can't vote for someone who supports an economic idea I like yet is willing to enable women (and abortion providers )easier access to abortion services by funding or other means. 

I won't be bought off by the promise of lower taxes etc all the while knowing that policies exist that allow if not encourage babies to be killed! I can't support nor can my conscience abide by  the notion that social issues are something that must not appear in the public arena and that economic (money) issues or any non-social issue (as anyone afraid of social issues defines it) are the only acceptable and worthy topics for debate and the only way to select candidates and laws.  Conversely, I accept the notion that my voice and views may not "win out" in the public square--I may be outnumbered but that won't change the code and standards I live by.  It is not a matter to be decided by popularity.  I recognize Christian viewpoints aren't often popular even in nations claiming to be Christian.

Again I will state it-- I do not seek to impose my "moral code" on anyone.  But I do live by a Christian viewpoint and I will make my decisions based on it and seek candidates that value the same things I do as best I can. Whether I am successful or not is another matter.  But I will be able to answer on judgment day to the Lord that I tried to live by his commandments as a witness to my faith despite others efforts to shut me up.

The beauty of this country and the Constitution is I can stand up in the public square and advocate for my point of view even if it's based on my Christian principles and I don't have to be quiet even if others think I should.
"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2012, 02:41:38 PM »
As I said before no one gets up in arms about imposing a moral code when it comes to theft (or murder).

And that is because we have followed an agreed to process to enact those laws, and they enjoy supermajority  support, and clearly lie in an area that everyone agrees constitutes harm to others.
 
 
I reject the notion that the only way we will be successful is if we toss over social issues and focus only on the economic concerns.

No, I am suggesting that we can only be successful if we toss over social issues in pursuit of limited government, properly restricted to areas in which  direct and immediate harm is being done to others. Right now we are pretty much evenly split on these issues, there is not a consensus that they constitute harm to others, therefore Government should have no say what-so-ever in them at this time, leaving each person free to judge for themselves the morality. That means the liberals can't force you to pay for an abortion, and you can't prevent them from obtaining one at their own cost.  Right now they want to use government to force you to pay for what you feel is immoral. That is wrong.  It would be equally wrong to use Government to prevent them from obtaining an abortion,  because THERE IS NO REAL CONSENSUS, and when that is the case, it would be better leave people free to make up their own minds, as long as their actions to not cause harm or impose costs on others. It is far more important at this time to push government back into its proper position, than to  allow 51% to impose their views on 49% or vice versa - be it a decision about the personhood of a fetus, or about the propriety of letting Gay's form legal  partnerships ,  the healthiness of a school lunch,  or the consumption of raw milk.  It just isn't the government's business.

Until a supermajority recognizes a Fetus as a person, each individual should have the right to decide that for themselves.  It is that right that it seems to me that you wish to take away. Its wrong for the liberals to take it from us. It is equally wrong for us to take it from them, no matter how right we think we are.  The federal government has no jurisdiction what-so-ever in these Matters. Some State governments do, but each according to its own Constitution.  

That's asking me to put aside my values for those who have none or different ones.  Why can't they put aside their values for me?
 

If we do what is right, we live and let live.  You should not have to put aside your values. But, neither should they. The liberals version has always been live and Let live, so long as you live the way I think best because of the government gun I have held to your head.  If you don't want an abortion. Don't get one.  If you don't want others to have them, persuade them that its a bad idea.  Holding the gun to somone's head is not persuasion.  It may get them to comply, but it won't get them to agree, any more than the gun currently held at your head forcing you to pay for abortions makes you agree.   Liberals  like to pretend they aren't stealing using the government - but they are. Its morally no different than if they came to your house and robbed you at gun point themselves.  Livewise,  it is morally no different if you use the government as weapon to prevent abortions, or if you  shoot at abortion doctors and blow up clinics.  Until there is an amendment the Federal government has no right to use its force in either arena.

Consequently, engaging in  such battles admits the government does have such a right. It is counter productive to the principles of government we believe in, and turns this into a fight over who is in control at the moment , rather than a fight over  what the limits of that control should be. And the latter is the far greater problem, as the liberals are abusing that power daily.  Taking that power and then abusing them back is not going to make things better. It just gets all of their dogs into the fight, and doesn't advance the real cause... limited government, and personal freedom (even if that personal freedom is used for purposes we find immoral)  

It is not a matter to be decided by popularity.  I recognize Christian viewpoints aren't often popular even in nations claiming to be Christian.

You live under a system where such things ARE decided by popularity, and you agreed to let them be decided that way. You cannot just declare this to be outside that system because you feel strongly. Democracy doesn't prevent great evils form occurring.. it just makes them less likely.  Solon was very wise.. you cannot give the people the best government you can devise - only  the best they will accept, and right now  they are not willing to accept a fetus is a person, anymore than the South was willing to accept Slaves as being people in 1789.  If the founders had followed your example, the UNITED STATES would have never been created.  They had to choose the lesser of two evils. a United States with slavery, or no United States at all. . .  We are in the same situation now. We cannot expect accommodation, if we are unwilling to accommodate. Unless we are willing to live and let live, we have no hope the liberals will accept similar terms., and no hope of ever returning government it its rightful role. You can choose to win these social battles, and in so doing implicitly grant the Federal government the right to interfere in such ways in the lives of individuals.  

But I will be able to answer on judgment day to the Lord that I tried to live by his commandments as a witness to my faith despite others efforts to shut me up.

I am NOT trying to shut you up. I am trying to persuade you that the pursuit of a solution via government force is counter productive,and  far outside of what our government has authority to do.   If the choice presented to the liberal is his way imposed by force  or your way imposed by force, he will always choose his way.  If the choice is one where he does what he wants, and you do what you want, and each pays the costs of their own behavior, there is at least some chance, however small, that they will consider it - as our Founders did over the matter of slavery.  The only other option is war and dissolution of the Union ( which economically is coming regardless of if you win on the  social issues or not)  



« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 03:56:14 PM by Weisshaupt »