Author Topic: "Medical Ethicists": Why not allow after-birth infanticide?  (Read 1566 times)

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Offline IronDioPriest

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"Medical Ethicists": Why not allow after-birth infanticide?
« on: February 28, 2012, 05:51:55 PM »
After-birth abortion: why should the baby live?

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Abstract

Abortion is largely accepted even for reasons that do not have anything to do with the fetus' health. By showing that (1) both fetuses and newborns do not have the same moral status as actual persons, (2) the fact that both are potential persons is morally irrelevant and (3) adoption is not always in the best interest of actual people, the authors argue that what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled.

Ethicists Argue in Favor of ‘After-Birth Abortions‘ as Newborns ’Are Not Persons’

Two ethicists working with Australian universities argue in the latest online edition of the Journal of Medical Ethics that if abortion of a fetus is allowable, so to should be the termination of a newborn.

Alberto Giubilini with Monash University in Melbourne and Francesca Minerva at the Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics at the University of Melbourne write that in “circumstances occur[ing] after birth such that they would have justified abortion, what we call after-birth abortion should be permissible.”

The two are quick to note that they prefer the term “after-birth abortion“ as opposed to ”infanticide.” Why? Because it “[emphasizes] that the moral status of the individual killed is comparable with that of a fetus (on which ‘abortions’ in the traditional sense are performed) rather than to that of a child.” The authors also do not agree with the term euthanasia for this practice as the best interest of the person who would be killed is not necessarily the primary reason his or her life is being terminated. In other words, it may be in the parents’ best interest to terminate the life, not the newborns.

The circumstances, the authors state, where after-birth abortion should be considered acceptable include instances where the newborn would be putting the well-being of the family at risk, even if it had the potential for an “acceptable” life. The authors cite Downs Syndrome as an example, stating that while the quality of life of individuals with Downs is often reported as happy, “such children might be an unbearable burden on the family and on society as a whole, when the state economically provides for their care.”

This means a newborn whose family (or society) that could be socially, economically or psychologically burdened or damaged by the newborn should have the ability to seek out an after-birth abortion. They state that after-birth abortions are not preferable over early-term abortions of fetuses but should circumstances change with the family or the fetus in the womb, then they advocate that this option should be made available.

The authors go on to state that the moral status of a newborn is equivalent to a fetus in that it cannot be considered a person in the “morally relevant sense.” On this point, the authors write:

[blockquote]Both a fetus and a newborn certainly are human beings and potential persons, but neither is a ‘person’ in the sense of ‘subject of a moral right to life’. We take ‘person’ to mean an individual who is capable of attributing to her own existence some (at least) basic value such that being deprived of this existence represents a loss to her.

[...]

Merely being human is not in itself a reason for ascribing someone a right to life. Indeed, many humans are not considered subjects of a right to life: spare embryos where research on embryo stem cells is permitted, fetuses where abortion is permitted, criminals where capital punishment is legal.[/blockquote]

Giubilini and Minerva believe that being able to understand the value of a different situation, which often depends on mental development, determines personhood. For example, being able to tell the difference between an undesirable situation and a desirable one. They note that fetuses and newborns are “potential persons.” The authors do acknowledge that a mother, who they cite as an example of a true person, can attribute “subjective” moral rights to the fetus or newborn, but they state this is only a projected moral status.

The authors counter the argument that these “potential persons” have the right to reach that potential by stating it is “over-ridden by the interests of actual people (parents, family, society) to pursue their own well-being because, as we have just argued, merely potential people cannot be harmed by not being brought into existence.”

And what about adoption? Giubilini and Minerva write that, as for the mother putting the child up for adoption, her emotional state should be considered as a trumping right. For instance, if she were to “suffer psychological distress” from giving up her child to someone else — they state that natural mothers can dream their child will return to them — then after-birth abortion should be considered an allowable alternative.

The authors do not tackle the issue of what age an infant would be considered a person....


More utterly disgusting crap at the links. Tell me again how we cohabit this earth with such evil, without trying to kill it, starting right now.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

CatholicCrusader

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Re: "Medical Ethicists": Why not allow after-birth infanticide?
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2012, 06:54:00 PM »
Two ethicists working with Australian universities argue in the latest online edition of the Journal of Medical Ethics that if abortion of a fetus is allowable, so to should be the termination of a newborn

Ethicists!! <snort>

Mad scientists is more like it.

Offline Glock32

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Re: "Medical Ethicists": Why not allow after-birth infanticide?
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2012, 06:56:33 PM »
It's moving toward it being a moral imperative that we eliminate this evil.  Liberals are always the first to ridicule slippery-slope arguments, even though they are proven correct time and time again. The same "personhood" argument can be, and has been, made about the comatose, the paralyzed, the terminally ill, and so on.

These arguments are being made in broad daylight just as the final push for nationalization of medicine in virtually all countries is underway in earnest. That is NO coincidence.
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Re: "Medical Ethicists": Why not allow after-birth infanticide?
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2012, 07:07:35 PM »
This rationale, and others like it "allowing" for the murder of the elderly and the cognitively impaired, are the logical progression of a society that permits abortion.  The authors don't want to call it what it is, "infanticide", because they'd have to admit the "post-birth fetus" is, indeed, an infant.

The Constitution is silent on the issue of determining "personhood", as Weisshaupt has pointed out, however, I believe the Founders, however prescient they were in carefully creating that which would bind the Federal government, never in their wildest imaginings could have foreseen the circumstance in that it would not be SELF-EVIDENT that a baby in utero is human life, equally deserving of its right to live.

BTW, the head of the "ethics" department of Princeton University, Peter Singer, has been of a similar opinion about after-birth abortion for some time, claiming parents should be able to murder their baby up to a year after its birth.

"A boy is a dog is a .... "; I've forgotten the rest, but you get the idea.
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Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: "Medical Ethicists": Why not allow after-birth infanticide?
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2012, 07:23:29 PM »
...BTW, the head of the "ethics" department of Princeton University, Peter Singer, has been of a similar opinion about after-birth abortion for some time, claiming parents should be able to murder their baby up to a year after its birth...

Such a person does not deserve to draw even one more breath.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: "Medical Ethicists": Why not allow after-birth infanticide?
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2012, 07:34:46 PM »
...BTW, the head of the "ethics" department of Princeton University, Peter Singer, has been of a similar opinion about after-birth abortion for some time, claiming parents should be able to murder their baby up to a year after its birth...

Such a person does not deserve to draw even one more breath.

I agree, and I worry that these types will get to us via Obamacare, before we get to them; Glock is right on the money.

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These arguments are being made in broad daylight just as the final push for nationalization of medicine in virtually all countries is underway in earnest. That is NO coincidence.

We've been given instructions for living in a way that causes us the least amount of self-inflicted pain -- the very same rules, *coincidentally*, that keep us closest to God -- and some humans cannot resist outright rebellion of the most despicable sort, declaring themselves as gods.  We all see some things as "self-evident", we differ on what those are.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline Glock32

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Re: "Medical Ethicists": Why not allow after-birth infanticide?
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2012, 07:46:16 PM »
The genealogy of Progressivism goes back to Nietzsche's infamous proclamation "God is Dead".  It is central to their worldview that humanity, rather than being in the state of original sin and intrinsically in need of God's salvation, is instead a perfectible organism if subject to the scientific ministrations of an elite. Rather than supreme moral authority vested in God, to Progressives it is vested in us (or more accurately: them). When mankind asserts itself as its own god, as its own arbiter of good and evil, this is the sort of thing you are met with.

I have no doubt that Progressivism is the instrument of a satanic evil.
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Re: "Medical Ethicists": Why not allow after-birth infanticide?
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2012, 08:09:08 PM »
Look.  They're young and arrogant ...



... as opposed to Peter Singer, who is old and arrogant.



There may be hope for the young ones.  May.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: "Medical Ethicists": Why not allow after-birth infanticide?
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2012, 10:02:36 PM »
Look.  They're young and arrogant ...



... as opposed to Peter Singer, who is old and arrogant.



There may be hope for the young ones.  May.

I would have no problem performing retro-active abortions on any of them - and would still sleep like a baby.

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: "Medical Ethicists": Why not allow after-birth infanticide?
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2012, 08:08:37 AM »
The Constitution is silent on the issue of determining "personhood", as Weisshaupt has pointed out, however, I believe the Founders, however prescient they were in carefully creating that which would bind the Federal government, never in their wildest imaginings could have foreseen the circumstance in that it would not be SELF-EVIDENT that a baby in utero is human life, equally deserving of its right to live.

Abortion existed in the Founder's time and most States had the wisdom to outlaw it .  I don't think there is much question the founders would have thought a human life began at conception, and the Declaration  I would think at least implies it. My argument about the Constitution was simply that it did nothing to protect slaves at its inception, and that the 14th Amendment was probably not passed with a fetus in mind, and therefore not consent to a particular definition of "personhood" was never obtained at the Federal level.   However law is about deciding which side of a line you are on, and not on defining a specific line.  There should be no question that "Life" and "Personhood" as used in the Constitution would have included a newborn, even if I can't say specifically at what point it became a "person" under the law. While there was no general agreement when the 14th amendment was ratified  confirming the personhood of a fetus,  its prepostuous to to think those who passed it understood it to exclude a newborn.

Also note, I am not against taking extra-constitutional measure to stop abortions, I just feel we shouldn't   cloak such actions  in the mantle of government. If we are in for a penny, lets be in for a pound, and do this thing. In the end such extra constitutional measures were the means by which slavery was abolished, and these barbarians we are up against  deserve much the same, for they feel all people are chattel owned by the government.

Even so,  and we were able to being to define "personhood" to a degree that obtained the consent of the governed, we would have to be very wary of how we constructed such a thing. English Law treated abortions as a lesser crime than murder for a reason, and a provision for the "life of the mother" I think is probably still prudent. A society that values life , must also value the life that produces them. A woman who has an abortion to save her life may go on to produce and care for 2 or more children. I would never wish such a choice on anyone, but if I had to choose between my unborn child and my wife, I would choose my wife, for her sake, for the sake of my two existing children, and the sake of any other children she might bear. An absolute defintion of personhood would prevent that cold calculus.   Of course there will be those that disagree, and feel that such a choice is better left removed from a human mind, and left instead  to prayer and God's hands. However, its because of disagreements like that that a consentual definiton  is hard to come by, even amongst ourselves.

Offline warpmine

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Re: "Medical Ethicists": Why not allow after-birth infanticide?
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2012, 04:00:00 PM »
Just remember, we don't murder the enemy...we kill the enemy...and never look back. ::rockets::
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Re: "Medical Ethicists": Why not allow after-birth infanticide?
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2012, 07:43:36 AM »


Moloch, says The Anchoress.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: "Medical Ethicists": Why not allow after-birth infanticide?
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2012, 10:49:27 AM »
Moloch, says The Anchoress.

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As our president likes to say, “let’s be clear”: Life is formed on the breath of intention — a breath that always utters “yes” because nothing is created from “no.” When a new life comes into the world, with it is delivered a renewal of old love, and the creation of wholly new love, shared, developed and grown between parent and child, child and grandparents, and so on. It is, on its most fundamental, the continual re-emergence and action of God — who is love — into the world.

To hate life, especially new life, is to hate God. To distrust it or dissuade it is to distrust and try to dissuade God. To destroy it is an attempt to destroy God. To obsess on preventing the possibility of life to-a-manic-extreme is to try desperately to hold God at bay, to contain him, to make God obedient to oneself, or to order him away. To slaughter his loved-into-being new life is to nourish emptiness and death on its blood; it is to worship an illusory freedom one thinks comes from saying “no.”

One can be confused or ignorant and not realize that when one rejects life one rejects love, and thus rejects God. Invincible ignorance counts. But true evil understands what it does, and how it moves and who it uses. And not everyone it uses minds being used.

Just wow. Anchoress bookmarked.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Libertas

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Re: "Medical Ethicists": Why not allow after-birth infanticide?
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2012, 11:38:55 AM »
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.