Author Topic: An "education" rant  (Read 3709 times)

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Online Pandora

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An "education" rant
« on: March 13, 2011, 04:47:50 PM »
In Iowahawk's take-down of Paul Krugman's recent stupidity on the subject of state rankings via ACT/SAT scores, he writes this:

Quote
Perhaps because a state's "average ACT/SAT" is, for all intents and purposes, a proxy for the percent of white people who live there. In fact, the lion's share of state-to-state variance in test scores is accounted for by differences in ethnic composition. Minority students - regardless of state residence - tend to score lower than white students on standardized test, and the higher the proportion of minority students in a state the lower its overall test scores tend to be.

Please note: this has nothing to do with innate ability or aptitude. Quite to the contrary, I believe the test gap between minority students and white students can be attributed to differences in socioeconomic status. And poverty. And yes, racism.

Can somebody please postulate for me how poverty makes one innately stupid?  The "education" establishment makes available the avenues by which to learn to read, write and cipher and yet that cannot compensate for poverty?

Were millions uneducable during the Depression because they were poor?

As I've previously written, we're having school budget "discussions" in my county.  Just recently I'm told I have no gratitude for the benefits granted to me (as a result of having my property taxes confiscated to barely and mis-educate other peoples' children) of "investing" in future doctors, carpenters, blahblahblah, as though no one anywhere would learn anything about anything without the educrats.  No gratitude expected from other people for the two-fold benefit of having my taxes for their children, nope.  I'm the ungrateful misanthrope.

I am so wearily disgusted by the endless blathering about what passes for education in this country - and the concomitant purported lack of "funding" - that I could just  ::gaah::
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Offline Glock32

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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2011, 04:57:35 PM »
That confounded "socioeconomic status" sure has been remarkably consistent across time and distance.
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Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2011, 05:07:48 PM »
Krugman's position is integral to the liberal card-house. When they twist logic to such a degree just to maintain their worldview, it's akin to calling "black" "white", or "up" "down", and expecting everyone else to take them seriously as if they're not saying something completely insane.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Predator Don

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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2011, 05:33:37 PM »
Honestly, there is truth in his assessment. Most educators are liberal. Most poor vote liberal. Most monorities vote liberal. Most live in the inner city. Most are on assistance. The innately stupid are those who take anything a liberal speaks, writes or lectures as fact.

So, in essence, the unionized education creates the perfect liberal playground of stupidity. Krugman is a genius.

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Offline Libertas

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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2011, 09:48:27 PM »
True, but being the smartest of the stupidest doesn't make him any more palatable!

Just like pissing away more and more taxpayer wealth on education, when it just goes into the pockets of bureaucrats and indoctrinators, doesn't produce an educated populace!

Ya just can't fix stupid.

(But I sure would like to stomp it out!)
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Online Pandora

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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2011, 10:31:44 PM »
Krugman's position is integral to the liberal card-house. When they twist logic to such a degree just to maintain their worldview, it's akin to calling "black" "white", or "up" "down", and expecting everyone else to take them seriously as if they're not saying something completely insane.

Krugman's idiocy is expected.  What confounds me is an intellect like Iowahawk's proclaiming the illiteracy rate is connected to poverty.

So, my postulate remains.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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Offline Glock32

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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2011, 10:59:18 PM »
Krugman's position is integral to the liberal card-house. When they twist logic to such a degree just to maintain their worldview, it's akin to calling "black" "white", or "up" "down", and expecting everyone else to take them seriously as if they're not saying something completely insane.

Krugman's idiocy is expected.  What confounds me is an intellect like Iowahawk's proclaiming the illiteracy rate is connected to poverty.

So, my postulate remains.

Remember what we've discussed a few times, about conservatives internalizing the Left's premises? In particular, the premises about die-VER-sity? I think it strikes again.

Another turd in this argument's punchbowl is the fact that, when controlled for economic status, whites still score higher.
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Offline Sectionhand

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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2011, 04:38:09 AM »
I don't care how much taxpayer money the government throws at the problem or how stridently teachers are hammered or rewarded ; until parents become directly involved in their children's education everything else is an ass-backwards waste of time . Unfortunately , parental interest and involvement isn't something that can be legislated .

Offline Libertas

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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2011, 07:30:39 AM »
That's certainly true SH.  Illiteracy isn't a product of race or economic status, but a symptom of disinterested parenting and laziness in relying upon a dysfunctional and corrupt education system to do what they will not.
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Online ToddF

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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2011, 07:54:28 AM »
Krugman's position is integral to the liberal card-house. When they twist logic to such a degree just to maintain their worldview, it's akin to calling "black" "white", or "up" "down", and expecting everyone else to take them seriously as if they're not saying something completely insane.

Krugman's idiocy is expected.  What confounds me is an intellect like Iowahawk's proclaiming the illiteracy rate is connected to poverty.

So, my postulate remains.

He isn't.  He's connecting it to culture with blacks, and more than likely, English being a second language (yes, that will effect literacy) for Hispanic.

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2011, 08:13:08 AM »
Krugman's position is integral to the liberal card-house. When they twist logic to such a degree just to maintain their worldview, it's akin to calling "black" "white", or "up" "down", and expecting everyone else to take them seriously as if they're not saying something completely insane.

Krugman's idiocy is expected.  What confounds me is an intellect like Iowahawk's proclaiming the illiteracy rate is connected to poverty.

So, my postulate remains.

He isn't.  He's connecting it to culture with blacks, and more than likely, English being a second language (yes, that will effect literacy) for Hispanic.

I think reading the whole piece is instructive. I didn't before, I just commented on Pan's excerpt, which I assumed was from Paul Krugman.
 ::facepalm::

In reading the whole thing though, it seems to me that what IH is doing is a) calling BS on Krugman's premise that non-unionized educators = poor education, b) undercutting that claim by noting that there is a racial/cultural and economic difference between states that Krugman does not account for, c) proving his assertion by breaking out and comparing how the races in different states compare to one another, and d) noting that in that comparison, Wisconsin schools with their much vaunted collective bargaining for teachers loses to Texas in almost every comparison.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Online ToddF

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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2011, 08:30:43 AM »
Exactly

That column threw me at first, by being serious.  ::falldownshocked::


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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2011, 10:09:24 AM »
Did the both of you perhaps miss this?  What I excerpted, written by Iowahawk?

Quote
Please note: this has nothing to do with innate ability or aptitude. Quite to the contrary, I believe the test gap between minority students and white students can be attributed to differences in socioeconomic status. And poverty. And yes, racism.

AND, YES, RACISM??!!

Iowahawk did the breakout, and wrote the above anyway.   ::bashing::
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 10:12:03 AM by Pandora »
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2011, 10:27:34 AM »
Did the both of you perhaps miss this?  What I excerpted, written by Iowahawk?

Quote
Please note: this has nothing to do with innate ability or aptitude. Quite to the contrary, I believe the test gap between minority students and white students can be attributed to differences in socioeconomic status. And poverty. And yes, racism.

AND, YES, RACISM??!!

Iowahawk did the breakout, and wrote the above anyway.   ::bashing::

I didn't miss it. It's bogus, and I don't know why he would fall on to that bandwagon of providing excuses. Socio-economic factors are relevant to the cultural dynamics that cause demographic swaths to perform below standards. But I've certainly never seen causation proved, and there are countless examples of people of all races climbing out of poverty by taking advantage of educational opportunity. Regarding the racism charge, it would have to be institutionally universal for that to be the case, and everything we know about the educational institution is that if anything, there is institutional reverse racism. So I call BS.

But that said, his overall point and takedown of Krugman and his methodology was correct.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Online Pandora

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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2011, 10:45:55 AM »
Quote
I didn't miss it. It's bogus, and I don't know why he would fall on to that bandwagon of providing excuses.

My point exactly.  The rest of it is irrelevent to that point.

Quote
Socio-economic factors are relevant to the cultural dynamics that cause demographic swaths to perform below standards.

And now you repeat "the bogus"?  So, I ask again, "What exactly about poverty causes stupidity?", in view of the fact that a great deal of the country did not lapse into stupidity and become uneducable during the Depression?

*sigh*

It's going to be one of those days, I see.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2011, 11:04:26 AM »
Quote
I didn't miss it. It's bogus, and I don't know why he would fall on to that bandwagon of providing excuses.

My point exactly.  The rest of it is irrelevent to that point.

Quote
Socio-economic factors are relevant to the cultural dynamics that cause demographic swaths to perform below standards.

And now you repeat "the bogus"?  So, I ask again, "What exactly about poverty causes stupidity?", in view of the fact that a great deal of the country did not lapse into stupidity and become uneducable during the Depression?

*sigh*

It's going to be one of those days, I see.

I think you misunderstand me. Let me rephrase. In those demographic swaths that perform below standards, there are cultural dynamics that are the cause. Socio-economic factors are relevant to those cultural dynamics - not the cause of them, nor the cause of educational under-performance. In other words, Black ghettos and White trailer parks and Mexican barrios, you'll find a cultural dynamic that undervalues education and under-performs educationally. Poverty is one factor that is relevant to that demographic.

But I believe that it is far more likely that the culture causes the poverty than the poverty causes the culture.

That clarify anything, or am I still missing your boat?
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2011, 11:09:53 AM »
Okay, yes; thank you.

Multi-culti bullsh i t strikes again, obviously, and I'm disappointed and rather disgusted with Iowahawk's repetition of this particular leftist premise.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2011, 11:23:01 AM »
...I'm disappointed and rather disgusted with Iowahawk's repetition of this particular leftist premise.

I am too, but I liked the piece anyway because in spite of him apparently accepting the Left's causation premise, it doesn't change the facts he used to destroy Krugman's premise.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2011, 11:25:17 AM »
I'm glad you enjoyed it.

And I appreciate your display of tact and patience.  ::kissface::
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline Predator Don

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Re: An "education" rant
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2011, 11:49:08 AM »
True, but being the smartest of the stupidest doesn't make him any more palatable!

Just like pissing away more and more taxpayer wealth on education, when it just goes into the pockets of bureaucrats and indoctrinators, doesn't produce an educated populace!

Ya just can't fix stupid.

(But I sure would like to stomp it out!)

I was kinda thinkin the stupidist of the stupidist.  ::rolllaughing::

Didn't you know, money fixes anything. Especially racism. ::rolllaughing::
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