Topic: Dead or In Jail: Nugent

[Libertas]

I'm not buying the "not helpful" line either, all Romney (or anyone willing to use their brain) has to say is "When Obama denounces (list is too long to repeat here) I'll denounce Ted, until then what one citizen says about any political figure holds little interest for me.  Interestingly, this is just about the same thing Obama said about Rush Limbaugh regarding Ms. Fluke, so one standard please, just tell me which one we are operating under and stick to it, OK?"

[IronDioPriest]

I get that the picture is bleak, and that political solutions bring little realistic hope. I think that sooner or later, things will have to get worse before they get better - even if they get better in the short term. The Leftward drift and unmooring from the constitution and the founding principles has been too constant for too long. Something has to give.

I don't have any aversion to discussing it or preparing for it to whatever degree one wishes to prepare, and whether that is tangible or mental preparation or some blend of both. Chance favors the prepared.

But preparing ones self mentally and physically for whatever comes is not the same as looking for disaster to the point where one seeks to bring it about. It's not the same as giving up to the point where you not only stop trying to fight for your way of life, but seek to aid those who wish to end it.

"Tear it all down" has never been a sane rallying cry, especially for a society that so far has not devolved into utter despair and outright tyranny, elimination of human rights, genocide, or whatever horror you pick from the list of horrors human beings commit upon one another.

We have our liberty, as threatened as it is. We have our history, as badly as it has been distorted. We have our economic strength, as mortally as it is wounded. We have our constitution, as egregiously as it has been neglected. We have decency, as perverse as our enemy may be. We have our intellect, as difficult as it is to proliferate it through the societal morass. We have our military, the mightiest in the world. We have our media - David against Goliath. We have our Judeo-Christian heritage, standing in the face of craven evil. We have our Lord God Jesus Christ, upon whose providence this nation was founded.

These things do not add up to hopelessness in my mind. They certainly do not add up to throwing in the towel, and they really, certainly don't add up to "F*ck it, let's just tear it all down". I don't have a rosy perspective. But I guess my perspective still sees what is good, and hopes that if good people DO SOMETHING, it can be restored - peacefully and within a civilized framework if at all possible.

I want to fight for our way of life, and try to restore our country. Not allow it and help it devolve into chaos out of some sense of hopelessness. I understand that new and untested measures must be taken. But I refuse to jump straight to "kill it", or the mentality that precedes it.

Killing the United States by abandoning civility will not bring about a new, fresh United States. Not at this point. It will end the very concept of liberty for the human race. Europe is all but gone. Islam is rising. The Caucasian race is committing willful demographic suicide. America and her constitution is the only hope for the concept of liberty for humanity. If we fall, humanity will have nothing to look to to demonstrate what liberty looks like. Do we really think that the most powerful nation the world has ever known could fall to Leftism without spawning the most evil regime the human race has ever endured? Does anyone here seek to bring that about? Because it will not lead to anything good - not for us, our children, or the human race.

So in my opinion, we have to try. We don't give up. And we certainly don't help the enemy tear it all down.

[John Florida]

I agree with Ted. He is stating what many others have said right on this board. Others have made threats of what they would do if things changed more toward the lefts take over of our rights. I'm not talking about just our second amendment; I'm talking about multiple rights that are slowly being eroding away every year. Talk about what you will do during the impending Armageddon would place any of us in jail or the grave. Just reread comments from TEOTWAWKI or second amendment sections.

I think he is stating what many here have put down on this and multiple other chat forums. Just because he is interviewed doesn't mean he has to act like a politician. He isn't running for office. People just happen to admire his candor and views. I don't think he cares one rip of what the libs think of him. Conservatives have been stepping on pins and needles and where has it got them? "Oh we can't offend anyone. We have to watch what we say." or We'll get in trouble if we do that" are becoming the norm. Look where it got us. We have been turning the other cheek for way to long. Or, in other words, we have been playing along to get along. How much longer do we have to do this? Till it's too late?

Ted just thinks it will happen a little earlier to him than what we feel will happen to us. I don't think that he has lost hope, but he is taking a bleak look at our future.

 

[LadyVirginia]

I get that the picture is bleak, and that political solutions bring little realistic hope. I think that sooner or later, things will have to get worse before they get better - even if they get better in the short term. The Leftward drift and unmooring from the constitution and the founding principles has been too constant for too long. Something has to give.

I don't have any aversion to discussing it or preparing for it to whatever degree one wishes to prepare, and whether that is tangible or mental preparation or some blend of both. Chance favors the prepared.

But preparing ones self mentally and physically for whatever comes is not the same as looking for disaster to the point where one seeks to bring it about. It's not the same as giving up to the point where you not only stop trying to fight for your way of life, but seek to aid those who wish to end it.

"Tear it all down" has never been a sane rallying cry, especially for a society that so far has not devolved into utter despair and outright tyranny, elimination of human rights, genocide, or whatever horror you pick from the list of horrors human beings commit upon one another.

We have our liberty, as threatened as it is. We have our history, as badly as it has been distorted. We have our economic strength, as mortally as it is wounded. We have our constitution, as egregiously as it has been neglected. We have decency, as perverse as our enemy may be. We have our intellect, as difficult as it is to proliferate it through the societal morass. We have our military, the mightiest in the world. We have our media - David against Goliath. We have our Judeo-Christian heritage, standing in the face of craven evil. We have our Lord God Jesus Christ, upon whose providence this nation was founded.

These things do not add up to hopelessness in my mind. They certainly do not add up to throwing in the towel, and they really, certainly don't add up to "F*ck it, let's just tear it all down". I don't have a rosy perspective. But I guess my perspective still sees what is good, and hopes that if good people DO SOMETHING, it can be restored - peacefully and within a civilized framework if at all possible.

I want to fight for our way of life, and try to restore our country. Not allow it and help it devolve into chaos out of some sense of hopelessness. I understand that new and untested measures must be taken. But I refuse to jump straight to "kill it", or the mentality that precedes it.

Killing the United States by abandoning civility will not bring about a new, fresh United States. Not at this point. It will end the very concept of liberty for the human race. Europe is all but gone. Islam is rising. The Caucasian race is committing willful demographic suicide. America and her constitution is the only hope for the concept of liberty for humanity. If we fall, humanity will have nothing to look to to demonstrate what liberty looks like. Do we really think that the most powerful nation the world has ever known could fall to Leftism without spawning the most evil regime the human race has ever endured? Does anyone here seek to bring that about? Because it will not lead to anything good - not for us, our children, or the human race.

So in my opinion, we have to try. We don't give up. And we certainly don't help the enemy tear it all down.

Thank you, IDP. You always manage to say clearly what I wish I could say as well. 

I'm not a historian by any means but from my limited study it seems as if there have been a number of times in this country where the future was bleak.

Maybe that our salvation as a nation will come not through a political leader but someone else.  The Obama regime is intent on attacking religion especially the Christians and perhaps from out of them someone will come to the forefront.  I'm thinking of John Paul II's effect on Poland.

from wikipedia:

Trip to Poland
 
In June 1979, Pope John Paul II traveled to Poland where ecstatic crowds constantly surrounded him. [61] This first trip to Poland uplifted the nation's spirit and sparked the formation of the Solidarity movement in 1980, which later brought freedom and human rights to his troubled homeland.[39] While Poland's Communist leaders intended to use the Pope's visit to show the people that even though the Pope was Polish it did not alter their capacity to govern, oppress, and distribute the goods of society. They also hoped that if the Pope abided by the rules they set, that the Polish people would see his example and follow them as well. If the Pope's visit inspired a riot, the Communist leaders of Poland were prepared to crush the uprising and blame the suffering on the Pope. [62]
 

"The Pope won that struggle by transcending politics. His was what Joseph Nye calls ‘soft power’– the power of attraction and repulsion. He began with an enormous advantage, and exploited it to the utmost: He headed the one institution that stood for the polar opposite of the Communist way of life that the Polish people hated. He was a Pole, but beyond the regime’s reach. By identifying with him, Poles would have the chance to cleanse themselves of the compromises they had to make to live under the regime. And so they came to him by the millions. They listened. He told them to be good, not to compromise themselves, to stick by one another, to be fearless, and that God is the only source of goodness, the only standard of conduct. ‘Be not afraid,’ he said. Millions shouted in response, ‘We want God! We want God! We want God!’ The regime cowered. Had the Pope chosen to turn his soft power into the hard variety, the regime might have been drowned in blood. Instead, the Pope simply led the Polish people to desert their rulers by affirming solidarity with one another. The Communists managed to hold on as despots a decade longer. But as political leaders, they were finished. Visiting his native Poland in 1979, Pope John Paul II struck what turned out to be a mortal blow to its Communist regime, to the Soviet Empire, an ultimately to Communism” [63]

[Libertas]

I understand and respect that reasoning IDP, but IMO there are two tracks going on simultaneously - one, the status quo political environment, and the other the end game.  IMO the status quo has to play itself out, and it will.  I think we know where we all fall on the likelyhood of that track, and to that extent I am participating as best I can, but it seems a preamble to things to come, not a viable working solution to all that ails us.  It is what it is.  What is being expressed or felt right now by a lot of people is the gut instinct as to the stakes involved and a seeking for a way around the looming abyss.  The stakes have never been higher, nor will they ever be less.  How one person responds to that gut instinct is being played out, and people will disagree as to the methods of others, that is their right, but that is where their right ends.  Ezekiel and the other prophets of old endured their fair share of criticism, but as we all know that didn't make them wrong.  Franz von Paupen thought Hitler could be controlled once he was elevated to Chancellor and the Night of Long Knives proved him wrong.  Are we approaching our night?  Ted might not be Ezekiel, but he may be a more wolfish Dietrich Bonhoeffer.  The end game in large part is going to be shaped by preliminary action.  Like in the Civil War, I prefer my enemy to make the first overt move.  Right now all people are doing is talking, the enemy cannot take direct action against talk, no matter how incendiary...until they declare martial law and throw the constitution in the burn bag.  Getting them to act or back down IMO is a valid strategy to employ.  That it is occurring during a presidential election year is immaterial, candidates can ride above or below the rancor, but one side cannot have one set of rules for the debate while denying others that same right.  Both ends can and will employ their own means, and playing with both arms tied behind my back is not acceptable to me.  Force their hand or get them to stand down, that is all I am willing to accept from my enemies.  I do not deem that as tearing it all down, but I understand if others feel that way.  Civility is a two way street, and right now I feel nothing but tiretracks on my back.  That ends now.

[Weisshaupt]

These things do not add up to hopelessness in my mind. They certainly do not add up to throwing in the towel, and they really, certainly don't add up to "F*ck it, let's just tear it all down". I don't have a rosy perspective. But I guess my perspective still sees what is good, and hopes that if good people DO SOMETHING, it can be restored - peacefully and within a civilized framework if at all possible.

I want to fight for our way of life, and try to restore our country. Not allow it and help it devolve into chaos out of some sense of hopelessness. I understand that new and untested measures must be taken. But I refuse to jump straight to "kill it", or the mentality that precedes it.

Killing the United States by abandoning civility will not bring about a new, fresh United States.

Eloquently expressed as usual IDP, but I don't think any of us are suggesting "throwing in the towel" We are suggesting that  seeking after civility at this point, in order to gain n election,  is merely "bewildering ourselves in groping for the middle way."  -  And yes, that quote is very much at the fore in this discussion.  Adams knew the Declaration would bring war, and he knew that a peaceful and civilized solution would not be found.  Maybe its the grudger in me, but civility MUST be reciprocal or it is useless. They have made it clear there is one standard for us, and another for them, and once things get to that point, there is ONLY ONE COURSE left available. Treating them like human beings is merely throwing Pearls before swine. We don't abandon civility, our morals, or our principles, nor do we abandon America. WE ARE AMERICA. Not those barbarians in control of a usurped and illegitimate government. We reserve those qualities for ourselves, and since co-existence has now become impossible with those who do not share them, the time is coming now to stand in opposition to them.  They cannot and will not be appeased. We either bow, worship and obey, or we stand our ground and fight. It is not us who have pushed to this end, and like Libertas I will not bring the battle to them, but I will fight on my own doorstep should they dare to come there. If we loose this battle it will because we sought to keep the peace with people who will accept none. If we loose this battle it will not be because Obama wins a second term, but because we were unwilling to say the truth and we were willing  play this rigged game in order to put a man who is just as pandering, and just as unprincipled into his office, and pretending that his being on "our side" makes all of the difference.

It may not be time to take to the streets armed, but its certainly time to stop pretending that we don't  feel the way we feel.

[trapeze]

Let me see if I am properly understanding the issue here. Are you suggesting that it is better to refuse to play the game because the other side is not playing by the rules?

If so, this is worrisome to me because "the game" is, in my understanding, the rule of law.

The rule of law is the very under pinning of the republican form of government. To abandon it is to give way to anarchy. This is, in my opinion, a bad idea.

I would say that it is better to regain control of the game and restore the rules to their proper place which is primacy.

Am I wrong? Is that not what you are suggesting?

[Damn_Lucky]

And this is the sort of thing I was talking about...top of the Drudge Report:

WASHINGTON - The U.S. Secret Service is reportedly investigating faded '70s rock star Ted Nugent for his recent insistence he'll be "dead or in jail" in a year's time if President Barack Obama is re-elected in November.

At a convention of the National Rifle Association over the weekend, the longtime gun advocate compared Obama and the Democrats to a coyote who should be shot.

"It isn't the enemy that ruined America," he said as he reaffirmed his endorsement of Republican front-runner Mitt Romney.
"It's good people who bent over and let the enemy in. If the coyote's in your living room pissing on your couch, it's not the coyote's fault. It's your fault for not shooting him."

Say what you want but this was not needed. It is not helpful. There may be a time and place for this talk but right now, IMO, is not that time.

Read some of the replies people are waking up.

[trapeze]

The replies are regarding the double standard. Lefties can say anything and get away with it. Got it. It's nothing new.

Personally, I don't see the point in lowering myself to their level.

It still remains that talk is cheap. The NBPs and Farrakhan can pound sand as far as I'm concerned. Let them try to back up their words with deeds and see how far they get. My guess is that they would be room temperature inside of 24 hours.

I just don't see that copying them as productive.

I want to kick BO out of the WH.

I want to elect more conservatives to the House and Senate.

We didn't get here overnight and we will not change things back to where they should be that quickly, either. We have to take the long view. We have to be persistent. And patient.

[Pandora]

We don't have the luxury of the time to do that.

[Weisshaupt]

Let me see if I am properly understanding the issue here. Are you suggesting that it is better to refuse to play the game because the other side is not playing by the rules?

If so, this is worrisome to me because "the game" is, in my understanding, the rule of law.

The rule of law is the very under pinning of the republican form of government. To abandon it is to give way to anarchy. This is, in my opinion, a bad idea.

I would say that it is better to regain control of the game and restore the rules to their proper place which is primacy.

Am I wrong? Is that not what you are suggesting?

And the Rule of Law in 1775 was provided by King George III and his parliament.  The colonists sued for representation within the system and were rejected. They begged the King to intervene and were rebuffed.  In response, the wielded the Kings law against them with capriciousness and malice- deploying an army against them and effectively destroying the rule of law.  Its gone Trap. The Rule of Law is already lost. MF global? GM Bond holders and dealership owners? Czars? Recess Appointments when Congress is not in Recess? EPA and other regulations enacted without representation and by fiat? The right to arrest and detain citizens without trial? IRS harassment of Tea Party Groups? The seizure of private property without due process at Gibson Guitar. The violation of the right of conscience, the freedom of religion. So  on and so on. The rule of law is dead and gone, and it will not be restored within the system. It has become too corrupt a tool.  

Many fought against John Adams - afraid of the consequences of the Declaration. You have a country now only because he persuaded the continental congress that the Rule of Law and Loyalty to the King was not worth being a slave. Did John Adams  seek Anarchy for America ?

[Glock32]

I've heard it said by many, Mark Levin among them, that it took 80+ years to get to this point and it's going to take the same amount of time to push back. That is pure fantasy IMO. There will be no multi-generation pushback. For one thing, we are close to the point where the living generation will be the last one that actually has any reverence for the Founders and for Western Civilization in general. If it's not the thoroughly infiltrated cultural institutions inculcating a revisionist consciousness, it's the demographic tide that threatens to overwhelm anyone who actually bears any resemblance to the Founders. And don't discount the significance of that.

A multitude of errors allowed things to degenerate to this point, but that's the part we have no control over. This Republic, if indeed it is to be saved, will be reclaimed by We the Living or not at all.

[charlesoakwood]

Shooting coyotes was a step too far, our economy isn't mortally wounded,
working to secure the house and senate is the ticket, by all means yes - let
them make the first move (keep your powder dry hold your water)
and time we'll have till they slip the ropes.

[trapeze]

What he said.

[trapeze]

The rule of law has been damaged but it is not gone. Not yet. There are still enough parts of the system that still operate as designed.

I look at the lead up to the election this year as being similar to the lead up to Y2K. A lot of people were convinced at that time that everything was just going to stop working...planes would fall out of the sky...truck drivers would not be able to figure our how to make deliveries...the electrical grid would suddenly just stop working... and so on.

It didn't happen. The computer problems never materialized. Plus too many people knew what to do and would have kept the machine working.

I see our current predicament the same way. Despite the best efforts of the Cloward/Pivens acolytes the machine is still working. There is too much momentum for the forces of entropy to destroy it in the time allowed. Then, God willing, the forces for order will be back at the controls.

I have faith.

We still have a republic.

Types of Government, Explained

[warpmine]

Let me see if I am properly understanding the issue here. Are you suggesting that it is better to refuse to play the game because the other side is not playing by the rules?

If so, this is worrisome to me because "the game" is, in my understanding, the rule of law.

The rule of law is the very under pinning of the republican form of government. To abandon it is to give way to anarchy. This is, in my opinion, a bad idea.

I would say that it is better to regain control of the game and restore the rules to their proper place which is primacy.

Am I wrong? Is that not what you are suggesting?

And the Rule of Law in 1775 was provided by King George III and his parliament.  The colonists sued for representation within the system and were rejected. They begged the King to intervene and were rebuffed.  In response, the wielded the Kings law against them with capriciousness and malice- deploying an army against them and effectively destroying the rule of law.  Its gone Trap. The Rule of Law is already lost. MF global? GM Bond holders and dealership owners? Czars? Recess Appointments when Congress is not in Recess? EPA and other regulations enacted without representation and by fiat? The right to arrest and detain citizens without trial? IRS harassment of Tea Party Groups? The seizure of private property without due process at Gibson Guitar. The violation of the right of conscience, the freedom of religion. So  on and so on. The rule of law is dead and gone, and it will not be restored within the system. It has become too corrupt a tool.  

Many fought against John Adams - afraid of the consequences of the Declaration. You have a country now only because he persuaded the continental congress that the Rule of Law and Loyalty to the King was not worth being a slave. Did John Adams  seek Anarchy for America ?

Happy I waited it out for someone to put it as I see it. There isn't any rule of law anymore as the left has flushed it and the baby down the drain.

Then there's well it took 80 years to get us here to this point. It may have but it only took ten years to liberate us from the oppressive British monarchy and it's parliament. I suspect it will take but a fraction of time this go round as the weapons and transportation much more effective.

It's all about who has the stomach for it. I'm betting the instant that the food stops popping into the stores the left will begin to kill each other hastening an end to the conflict. 

[warpmine]

On the other hand, perhaps this is what is needed. For to long, constitutional conservatives have stood idly by and watch the leftist trash dictate the rules of civility when in fact if we showed more backbone they wouldn't have made advances this far. Just maybe we need to show them that we are fully dedicated to stepping it up to next level as a warning shot across the left's bow. They seem perfectly willing to call for anarchy so maybe we should call their bluff and make the noises of revolt as well.

[IronDioPriest]

Will the rule of law be dead and buried if ObamaCare is overturned? Or when Heller was vindicated?

The rule of law is damaged egregiously. The courts are populated with tools. The capitol with morons. But the founding concepts and framework still lives, if we are willing to fight for their restoration.

[Libertas]

Trap, if as you say "talk is cheap", why the objection to what is being said?  You are nailing us down to the double-standard the Left has imposed on people!  Break your chains!  The 1st Amendment is as much ours as it is theirs!  Did Ben Franklin and Sam Adams dial back their criticism and rhetoric of the Crown because the Crown wished it?  And "lowering to their level"?  Come on, man?!  That's a low blow!  We are not looking to take to the streets and riot, vandalize, pillage and poop on cops!  Why do you want to lump us with that ilk?  We are talking about speech and the freedom to employ it as we see fit!

And as many of us have pointed out time and again, we do not have time, no way, no how.  80 years...we would be extremely fortunate if we had 1/8 that time, and 100 years of proglodyte trash is not going to get swept away in one decade even if relatively sane people were in the WH & Congress, Congress especially being guaranteed to be slim majorities given the political polarization is likely to get much more pronounced, not less.

You say we still have rule of law?  Indeed.  What is our duty?  Simple.  We the People are supreme.  The Constitution is ours, sections do not belong to one group and other sections to another, all are equal under it.  Where do we get our authority?  From our creator.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

[IronDioPriest]

OK, so let's alter and abolish the form of government, and see what fills the vacuum. Somebody tell me where to start. Seems to me we have two choices. We can either start shooting, or we can try like hell to eradicate the ruling class from power and restore some semblance of constitutional civil government.

I look to 2010 and while I am gravely disappointed in leadership, and feel hamstrung by those confounded founding fathers for being so damned good at devising separation of powers, I still hold on to what can happen if the people are awakened from their slumber. In my opinion we need MORE of what led to 2010, to REALLY drive the point home. Not less. The defiance of the ruling class tells me that we need to smack them again, and again, and again - not let them regroup and win the day.

One may think that a grassroots effort by Tea Party types to repeat in the senate and the White House what happened in the house in 2010 is a wasted effort because things are so far gone. Does that mean trying like hell has no value?

Trap has made the point that what we face is an existential crisis, but nothing compared to that faced by the WWII generation, the depression era generation, or modern day Israel - or what Israel has faced throughout its existence for that matter. He's right, and it speaks to my point earlier. As damaged as things are and as grave as things look, we still have more freedom and more wealth and more resources and more infrastructure than any society humanity has ever known.

Now is not the time to abandon ship, in my opinion. Now is time to bail like motherf**kers, and keep bailing until the last lifeboat is launched. Maybe if we bail hard enough we'll uncover the breach and we can start plugging the hole.