Author Topic: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again  (Read 2816 times)

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Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2012, 03:03:55 PM »
Taxation is required in any case. The compliance costs are probably the most important thing to look at - because they create millions of monkey jobs that don't  actually contribute to wealth production. You pay a guy to do you taxes,  and what is produced? Its Make-Work.  You are digging holes to fill them in again.


Which is why I was happy to leave tax accounting behind.... ;D
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Online Weisshaupt

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2012, 03:40:56 PM »
. What I hadn't thought through was the idea that placing the decision of under what conditions tax is paid into the hands of consumers related to each purchase, would result in a direct negative impact on the likelihood of commerce even taking place, on each purchase at the point of each sale.

I am not sure out of sight, out of mind works.  If I am at the point of sale and I know what I have in the bank , and I know the amount of tax  that needs to be paid-I can make a decision.  I often delay purchases in Jan or Feb, in order to see what my tax bill is, before deciding to make a purchase. Uncertainty is probably going to be more of a deterrent than a sales tax.  But it now or buy it later, you will pay the tax. If the sales tax you pay is the primary reason for not purchasing, then you didn't need the thing in the first place.

I suspect those for who taxes are out of sight, out of mind, probably won't notice the sales tax added either.

Offline EW1(SG)

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2012, 04:27:55 PM »
. What I hadn't thought through was the idea that placing the decision of under what conditions tax is paid into the hands of consumers related to each purchase, would result in a direct negative impact on the likelihood of commerce even taking place, on each purchase at the point of each sale.

I am not sure out of sight, out of mind works.  If I am at the point of sale and I know what I have in the bank , and I know the amount of tax  that needs to be paid-I can make a decision.  I often delay purchases in Jan or Feb, in order to see what my tax bill is, before deciding to make a purchase. Uncertainty is probably going to be more of a deterrent than a sales tax.  But it now or buy it later, you will pay the tax. If the sales tax you pay is the primary reason for not purchasing, then you didn't need the thing in the first place.

I suspect those for who taxes are out of sight, out of mind, probably won't notice the sales tax added either.

It's very true that any tax is going to dampen commerce, but I think sales taxes are worse in that regard than a flat rate income tax if only for the example of startup ventures that often don't turn a profit for some time after inception.  No income, no tax.  But the sales tax is always there as another cost borne by the enterprise and it may be the turning point between success and failure in a low margin venture.

And in that sense I would rather that tax policy encourages commerce; or at least penalizes it as little as possible.

And the cost of compliance is huge:  we could make significant cost savings there by simplification.  As noted above, I certainly am not wedded to only an income tax.  I do think that everyone, including the poor, should pay a fair amount for the services they use.  If the "wealthy," or commercial interests use an inordinate share for, say road maintenance, then we do need to find a way to levy taxes that shift the cost to the user creating that cost. 

(Which also makes a case for keeping taxes as local as possible, a small town may decide that the cost of maintaining public facilities for the only industrial business in town is worth spreading across its electorate rather than have the plant move if its unable to shoulder the cost of maintaining the facilities for itself.)
My doctor told me to start killing people.  Not in those exact words, she said I had to reduce the stress in my life.

Same thing.

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2012, 07:40:38 PM »
Quote
If the "wealthy," or commercial interests use an inordinate share for, say road maintenance, then we do need to find a way to levy taxes that shift the cost to the user creating that cost.

That's already in operation for the roads.  Seeing as how a lot of our goods are moved by truck, the road use taxes/permits/fees/licenses have been shifted to trucking companies, but, ultimately the end user pays - that's us.

Now flying, a scheme by which we're all taxed per mile driven, as though we're not paying enough through gas taxes, licensing of driver and vehicle, and auto-insurance add-ons.

When's the last time y'all looked at your phone bill?  We still have a landline and half of the $29 per month, local, is fees, taxes and surcharges, just to get a dial-tone in the house.  The long-distance company's bill varies by calls made but the same fees, taxes and surcharges apply but as a percentage of the total of calls. We get a $25 credit there and most months, a few calls and the resulting f/t/s eat up the entire credit.

We pay a sales tax on propane, and now, a sales tax on the delivery charge as well.

We pay property taxes on home and vehicles and any licensed trailers -- and if you're using one, it needs to be licensed.  If we make improvements to the house, what is determined as "significant improvement" is remodeling your bathroom/kitchen and not just replacing a floor, the county wants to know how much of it was "sweat equity" because it wants property taxes on your labor.

There isn't a blessed thing any of us do that a fee, tax, or permit from the government isn't required and I'm bloody tired of it.

We desperately need to rebuild our front porch and the prospect of dealing with the local and state governments' demands and permitting fees is going to drive me to *setting my hair on fire and putting it out with a shovel.  (*H/T Luthien)
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Offline Sectionhand

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2012, 05:04:52 AM »
Most people in this country don't even understand what's entailed in a Value Added Tax ... or how disasterous it would be to our economy . It's just a quick step to the European Model .

Offline EW1(SG)

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #45 on: May 06, 2012, 06:55:56 AM »
Quote
If the "wealthy," or commercial interests use an inordinate share for, say road maintenance, then we do need to find a way to levy taxes that shift the cost to the user creating that cost.

That's already in operation for the roads.  Seeing as how a lot of our goods are moved by truck, the road use taxes/permits/fees/licenses have been shifted to trucking companies, but, ultimately the end user pays - that's us.

Now flying, a scheme by which we're all taxed per mile driven, as though we're not paying enough through gas taxes, licensing of driver and vehicle, and auto-insurance add-ons.

When's the last time y'all looked at your phone bill?  We still have a landline and half of the $29 per month, local, is fees, taxes and surcharges, just to get a dial-tone in the house.  The long-distance company's bill varies by calls made but the same fees, taxes and surcharges apply but as a percentage of the total of calls. We get a $25 credit there and most months, a few calls and the resulting f/t/s eat up the entire credit.

We pay a sales tax on propane, and now, a sales tax on the delivery charge as well.

We pay property taxes on home and vehicles and any licensed trailers -- and if you're using one, it needs to be licensed.  If we make improvements to the house, what is determined as "significant improvement" is remodeling your bathroom/kitchen and not just replacing a floor, the county wants to know how much of it was "sweat equity" because it wants property taxes on your labor.

There isn't a blessed thing any of us do that a fee, tax, or permit from the government isn't required and I'm bloody tired of it.

We desperately need to rebuild our front porch and the prospect of dealing with the local and state governments' demands and permitting fees is going to drive me to *setting my hair on fire and putting it out with a shovel.  (*H/T Luthien)

Well said, Luthien!

You're right, of course, we already DO levy use based taxes on, well, goldurned near everyt'ing!  My comment was made in the hope that someday we'll start afresh...and actually think it through this time.

/Okay, okay.  I know.  I picked the wrong millennium to stop being a drug addict...
My doctor told me to start killing people.  Not in those exact words, she said I had to reduce the stress in my life.

Same thing.

charlesoakwood

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2012, 12:45:17 PM »

Luthien, Luthien, ...Luthien?


Online Pandora

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #47 on: May 06, 2012, 04:20:17 PM »

Luthien, Luthien, ...Luthien?



Powerline, CO; sorry.  I'll never quite forget her because of that one remark.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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Offline John Florida

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2012, 07:18:53 PM »

Luthien, Luthien, ...Luthien?



Powerline, CO; sorry.  I'll never quite forget her because of that one remark.



   The midget?
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Online Pandora

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2012, 07:20:13 PM »

Luthien, Luthien, ...Luthien?



Powerline, CO; sorry.  I'll never quite forget her because of that one remark.



   The midget?

Dwarf, I think. But, yes.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Online IronDioPriest

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2012, 07:30:09 PM »

Luthien, Luthien, ...Luthien?



Powerline, CO; sorry.  I'll never quite forget her because of that one remark.



   The midget?

Dwarf, I think. But, yes.

Munchkin.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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Offline John Florida

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2012, 07:32:46 PM »

Luthien, Luthien, ...Luthien?



Powerline, CO; sorry.  I'll never quite forget her because of that one remark.



   The midget?

Dwarf, I think. But, yes.

 Were going PC now?? It's sauce then!!
All men are created equal"
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Online Pandora

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #52 on: May 06, 2012, 07:41:43 PM »

Luthien, Luthien, ...Luthien?



Powerline, CO; sorry.  I'll never quite forget her because of that one remark.



   The midget?

Dwarf, I think. But, yes.

 Were going PC now?? It's sauce then!!

It's not PC, ya pita. There's a physiological difference between a midget and a dwarf.  If I was being PC, I'd have called her a "little person" as she insisted we all do back on PL.

And it's GRAVY!  Put on yer apron!
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Online IronDioPriest

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #53 on: May 06, 2012, 09:31:00 PM »
If I was a dwarf, I'd want to be called a Munchkin. Munchkins are cute and jolly.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline EW1(SG)

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #54 on: May 06, 2012, 10:45:01 PM »
If I was a dwarf, I'd want to be called a Munchkin. Munchkins are cute and jolly.

Hell, I would be too if I lived downwind of huge opium poppy fields ...
My doctor told me to start killing people.  Not in those exact words, she said I had to reduce the stress in my life.

Same thing.

Offline Libertas

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #55 on: May 07, 2012, 07:12:57 AM »
Whatever it is can I toss it?
Irrumabo!  GOP? - Nope. No more. They made their bed, now let them die in it.*
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Offline EW1(SG)

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2012, 08:32:03 AM »
Whatever it is can I toss it?

Not in this country!

Or Fwance.
My doctor told me to start killing people.  Not in those exact words, she said I had to reduce the stress in my life.

Same thing.

Offline BMG

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2012, 11:26:47 AM »
Whatever it is can I toss it?

Well, you almost could have here in Florida! But unfortunately Florida Rep. Workman backed out at the last minute and pulled his bill.  
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 12:30:17 PM by BMG »
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2012, 11:41:14 AM »
Leftist busybodies are always putting the clamps down on people having a good time, joyless bastards!   ::mooning::
Irrumabo!  GOP? - Nope. No more. They made their bed, now let them die in it.*
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Offline BMG

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2012, 12:30:58 PM »
Leftist busybodies are always putting the clamps down on people having a good time, joyless bastards!   ::mooning::


::hysterical::
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.” 
- Patrick Henry

"The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates."
- Tacitus