IDP, I read your posts to this point several times and something about them bothered me. I reread the posts again and this comment is the one that bothered me the most:
But I'm compelled to say that whatever moral authority it has for doing so is seriously undermined if not mortally wounded by its decades-long or perhaps even centuries-long abdication of that responsibility, and tolerance of hypocrisy in the Church, both clerical and lay.
If I replaced the Catholic Church as the subject with the United States I think it is treading close to the argument the leftists make about the US of A.
"...that whatever moral authority
it the United States has (through its founding documents) for doing so is seriously undermined if not mortally wounded by its decades-long or perhaps even centuries-long abdication of that responsibility (through tolerance of slavery, racism, abortion), and tolerance of hypocrisy in the country, both
clerical and lay in its three branches of government and in its voters.
And a few other asides I want to comment on:
If it takes the impending reality of losing the very concept of religious freedom to awaken the church to its abject failure to protect it, then I guess it's better late than never.
That sounds like human nature. I don't know of any organization run by human beings that hasn't fallen into this or come periously close. Goodness knows the Jews were given to becoming victims of their own failings numerous times but were given mutiple chances as were Jesus' own followers to correct their mistakes and maybe become stronger. I've never heard anyone suggest that the teachings of the Old Testament Jews should be dismissed because they failed many times. I'd have a hard time dismissing the words of the prophets or Jesus' disciples simply because some in the group/organization messed up or fell into sin. I feel the same way about the founding documents of the United States. Either you believe in those words or you don't. If you do then you work to uphold them. And it's been tough for the conservatives as the progressives have held sway for about 100 years. I'm not going to write off this country because all those others didn't do anything or were ineffective. Because I know many good people who've been fighting the good fight for decades for this country and I believe that the same probably can be said for those Catholics who remained faithful and endured the pain of seeing their faith ridiculed all the while doing the best they could.
and
Like someone who smokes cigarettes for 50 years and then gets lung cancer. You feel terrible for them, you want them to get better, you help them how you can. But you don't do so without a simultaneous acknowledgment at least within your own thoughts that the person brought it upon themselves through poor choices.
If we condemn the church using that at what point does that argument end? Who do we condemn next? Because until the 20th century a number of churches formally forbid birth control, divorce , sex before marriage, etc. And the consequences of lifting the taboo has been a sexual revolution that's never abated, serial sexual partners with a rise in STDs, children without two parents raising them, countless broken homes and hearts. Because much of the pain we all have experienced in our own families could be attributed to behavior they could have avoided. Who's throwing the first stone? My brother was catting around and eventually got one of his girlfriends pregnant twice. He was nasty to me. He's never specifically apologized to me but he's straightened out his life and I'd trust him to have my back. Then there's the whole health issue as you allude to with the smoking--could the same be said for any number of diseases? I have many family and friends who suffer diseases and disabilities their doctors have told them were because of lifestyle choices. I know so many people who've had knee replacements because they're fat. In Great Britian you get to suffer for your sin of being fat by not getting a replacement until you lose the weight.
Whoa, I wrote more than I intended, IDP. Hmmm, I hope it's understood that I'm trying to think through your comments. Maybe you can clarify where I went in the wrong direction with you comments. My understanding of the church is that it has certain principles it doesn't give on much like the US is not supposed to give on certain principles (as codified in its founding documents). Conservatives tend to require perfection in suitable earthly partners and as Christians we know that isn't going to happen.
I don't think we toss out the USA because some prostituted its institutions any more than I'd toss aside the church's assistance and courage on these issues because some within were bad.
IMHO. YMMV, yadda,yadda.
