Topic: Test of Fire:

[IronDioPriest]

Y'all bring an interesting perspective to the argument about the responsibility
of the Catholic Church.  Throughout American history the Catholic Church and
Catholics were relegated to second tier or suspect status.  Even as late as the
mid-twentieth century Jack Kennedy had an uphill battle to satisfy the Protestant
voters that he would not subjugate himself or this nation to the Pope or Catholic
doctrine.  And now, it's all the Catholics fault, that's amusing.

Please don't misconstrue what I'm saying Charles. I do not suggest that it's "all the Catholics fault". Nor do I suggest that other non-Catholic Christian sects are blameless for allowing Christianity to erode to the point where government feels safe attacking it.

My onlyonlyonly point is that a church that professes the sanctity of life, marriage, and moral charity - but celebrates its clergy and membership who profess abortion, homosexual equivalence, and government redistribution of wealth - are not on as solid ground to fight this attack as they otherwise would be if they had simply practiced what they preached all along. Since they didn't practice what they preached, they are now fighting this from a position of reactionary self-preservation as opposed to moral consistency. Liberalism and Catholicism allied never made logical sense, but here we are: the Catholic Church being attacked by the liberal beast it nurtured for all those years. That's all I'm saying. Nothing more or less.

Of course I am happy the church is fighting back. Of course I support them in doing so. Let's face it: the Catholic Church is the very best hope there is on our side, of possessing the organization and will to fight back. So I'm on board.

But that doesn't mean I won't have a discussion about how things got to this point.

[Glock32]

Who is blaming the Catholic Church?  We are merely pointing out that the Catholic Church has made unsavory alliances with the political Left in the past, and that they are now hopefully being shocked out of whatever rationalizations had heretofore permitted such alliances.  I don't think anyone making this point is suggesting that the various forms of Protestantism somehow contrast with this in their purity. It is the Episcopalians who conduct gay weddings, for instance.

[IronDioPriest]

Who is blaming the Catholic Church?  We are merely pointing out that the Catholic Church has made unsavory alliances with the political Left in the past, and that they are now hopefully being shocked out of whatever rationalizations had heretofore permitted such alliances.  I don't think anyone making this point is suggesting that the various forms of Protestantism somehow contrast with this in their purity. It is the Episcopalians who conduct gay weddings, for instance.

Exactly.

[Libertas]

Yup.  Not bashing Catholics, all denominations deserve both criticism and credit where due!

I can tell ya about the Episcopals!  When my folks got married my father was Catholic and my mother was Presbyterian, they married in the Catholic Church but joined the Episcopal to raise us kids.  I guess they thought the Episcopals had a similar outlook as the Catholics but being a protestant outfit they dispensed with ritual and Latin.  Anyway all went good till the mid-70's and that church began to change for the worse.  You could see incremental progressive though creeping into everything...started small with paying respect to this or that, then questioning the true gender of God and all that drivel...we broke away in the late 80's and never looked back.  Joined ELCA then they started caving into gays and crap (remember the famous freak tornado out of nowhere in Mpls that blew off the steeple of the church the elders met at to allow blasphemers?  Yeah, God has a real sense of humor!) so our formerly ELCA church joined ARC (Alliance of Renewal Churches).  The Church should NOT change to attract new parishioners, people should go to the church that matches their beliefs.  As usual leftists turn everything upside down and end up ruining it for everyone.

Anyway, I hope more join this fight against Obamunism...you can never have enough allies in this war.   

[Predator Don]

Whether Catholic, Protestant or anything in between....when you lay with dogs you're gonna get some fleas.

[John Florida]

  It's on!!

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/21/catholic-groups-sue-over-federal-contraception-mandate/?hpt=hp_bn5


 Catholic groups sue over federal contraception mandate
By Alan Duke, CNN

(CNN) - The University of Notre Dame and "a diverse group of plaintiffs" filed lawsuits Monday challenging the federal mandate that religious employers offer health insurance that includes coverage of contraceptives and birth control services, Notre Dame spokeswoman Shannon Chapla said.

[LadyVirginia]

Though I find it amusing that places like Notre Dame are suing, the Constitution doesn't guarantee religious freedom only to those who've never violated their own beliefs. So whether they have any moral credibility or not is irrelevant.  That may be important in the court of public opinion but not in the court of law.

[charlesoakwood]

Who is blaming the Catholic Church?  We are merely pointing out that the Catholic Church has made unsavory alliances with the political Left in the past, and that they are now hopefully being shocked out of whatever rationalizations had heretofore permitted such alliances.  I don't think anyone making this point is suggesting that the various forms of Protestantism somehow contrast with this in their purity. It is the Episcopalians who conduct gay weddings, for instance.

Exactly.

Well, from this side of the isle it looks pretty selective.
All of the Churches have made unsavory alliances with the political Left in the past
some much worse than the Catholic's.  Having witnessed my Methodist church go
from one that professes the sanctity of life, marriage, and moral charity to one that celebrates its clergy and membership who profess abortion, homosexual equivalence, and government redistribution of wealth, and succors Castro and his ilk my heart is warmed by the Catholics.  I was heartened when the few spoke out and am, frankly, enamored by the continued gathering of the faithful to their cause.  They are leading the way, if not for them we would hear no more than the cackling of hens.

[IronDioPriest]

Who is blaming the Catholic Church?  We are merely pointing out that the Catholic Church has made unsavory alliances with the political Left in the past, and that they are now hopefully being shocked out of whatever rationalizations had heretofore permitted such alliances.  I don't think anyone making this point is suggesting that the various forms of Protestantism somehow contrast with this in their purity. It is the Episcopalians who conduct gay weddings, for instance.

Exactly.

Well, from this side of the isle it looks pretty selective.
All of the Churches have made unsavory alliances with the political Left in the past
some much worse than the Catholic's.  Having witnessed my Methodist church go
from one that professes the sanctity of life, marriage, and moral charity to one that celebrates its clergy and membership who profess abortion, homosexual equivalence, and government redistribution of wealth, and succors Castro and his ilk my heart is warmed by the Catholics.  I was heartened when the few spoke out and am, frankly, enamored by the continued gathering of the faithful to their cause.  They are leading the way, if not for them we would hear no more than the cackling of hens.

I don't dispute any of that.

[Predator Don]

Who is blaming the Catholic Church?  We are merely pointing out that the Catholic Church has made unsavory alliances with the political Left in the past, and that they are now hopefully being shocked out of whatever rationalizations had heretofore permitted such alliances.  I don't think anyone making this point is suggesting that the various forms of Protestantism somehow contrast with this in their purity. It is the Episcopalians who conduct gay weddings, for instance.

Exactly.

Well, from this side of the isle it looks pretty selective.
All of the Churches have made unsavory alliances with the political Left in the past
some much worse than the Catholic's.  Having witnessed my Methodist church go
from one that professes the sanctity of life, marriage, and moral charity to one that celebrates its clergy and membership who profess abortion, homosexual equivalence, and government redistribution of wealth, and succors Castro and his ilk my heart is warmed by the Catholics.  I was heartened when the few spoke out and am, frankly, enamored by the continued gathering of the faithful to their cause.  They are leading the way, if not for them we would hear no more than the cackling of hens.

Hopefully, church leaders learn a lesson on who you sleep with from now forward. The catholic church was thrown in the center and it is natural their leadership will be scrutinized, it does not excuse the actions of other religions and thier leaders.

Many of our religious leaders looked at Obama and wanted to find points of agreement (cough, cough, slick Rick warren) only to be infested by fleas. Many have adopted the perversions of the left, welcoming sin for sins sake, more fleas.

So while the catholic church has been a focus point, it does not excuse other religious factions who embraced the lefts premises to make them palatable. It is not palatable, it's deplorable. It is sin.

[IronDioPriest]

...Many of our religious leaders looked at Obama and wanted to find points of agreement (cough, cough, slick Rick warren) only to be infested by fleas. Many have adopted the perversions of the left, welcoming sin for sins sake, more fleas...

Hell, look right to Notre Dame. They invited that Marxist pro-abort into their Catholic university, showered him with praise, credibility, and legitimacy, and they did so in the face of people protesting the obvious assault that doing so committed upon the doctrine of the Church.

They didn't just seek to find a point of agreement. They chose to aid him in his anti-Catholic mission. Now they are feeling the consequences of their foolishness. I can only pray, as I have, that it is not too little too late, and that their epiphany is motivated by a genuine understanding of how they got themselves into this mess, and not a cynical effort at self-preservation.

[IronDioPriest]

I thought of an apt analogy to try to explain what I've been trying to say here that takes the religious component out of the discussion.

How would we feel and what would we say if suddenly John McCain, Lisa Murkowski, Lindsey Graham, Dick Lugar, Olympia Snowe, and Mitch McConnell became alarmed at the Leftward drift away from the constitution, and banded together in solidarity vowing to fight for constitutional principles?

First we'd probably say, "Hallelujah!" But whatever our response, it would be tempered with skepticism at the prospect of a genuine conversion, and the transgressions of those senators that created the problem in the first place would be on the table for discussion. Then we'd be right alongside them all, holding their feet to the fire.

Isn't that all I'm really doing here? I'm just saying, "OK, great, Church. Glad you finally see what's going on. But because of your hand in creating the mess in which you now find yourselves and in which you've helped place the entire country, forgive me if I think your feet need to be held closely to the fire."

[Pandora]

That's a really good analogy, IDP.

As a lapsed Roman Catholic, I took no offense to your words as much of what you wrote about the Church's complicity in the making of its current dilemma is correct.  Probably why I'm lapsed.  The men running the Church have caused me much anger over the years, and bewilderment.  There are men, and women, with a particular politics and their own agendas.

Part of the problem is the difficulty in running a religious institution from across an ocean.  Many of the Bishops and Cardinals here "interpret" doctrine as they see fit, according to their "consciences"; I've been unsure many times the source of what was issued, supposedly, from the Vatican or the Pope, and what it meant.

I think the "sexual revolution" caused much angst in the Church over how best to deal with it, and with women's hatred of the prohibition of conception control.  I believe the Left had been slowly infiltrating the Church, but the 60s and 70s saw them gain an incredible foothold that continues to this day.  Some of the seminaries were so overrun with homosexuals, one in particular, St. Mary's seminary, was dubbed "The Pink Palace", that a lot of good men chose to forego their calling in that manner.  I think the Church yielded on some things in order that it could stand fast on others, but it should have stood fast on all of it and the people would have stood with it, conception control notwithstanding.

A Catholic, a good friend, recently pointed out that it is the younger priests now, not the ones ordained then, that are committed to Church doctrine.  The old radicals are dying out and not a minute too soon.

[IronDioPriest]

...A Catholic, a good friend, recently pointed out that it is the younger priests now, not the ones ordained then, that are committed to Church doctrine.  The old radicals are dying out and not a minute too soon.

Anecdotally, I know this to be true at the largest Catholic church in my town - at least from all outward appearances and testimonies (you never know the hearts of men). The young priest is dedicated to Jesus Christ and his ordained mission according to Catholic doctrine. I've met him several times, and seen him working in the church and in the community, and he gives me hope that what your friend says is true.

[Glock32]

All of Christianity seems to have been infected with this idea that it must modify itself in order to attract people, and this has been put into practice in any number of destructive ways. In reality it is supposed to be the Rock that stands athwart the ephemeral wanderings of man.

[Libertas]

All of Christianity seems to have been infected with this idea that it must modify itself in order to attract people, and this has been put into practice in any number of destructive ways. In reality it is supposed to be the Rock that stands athwart the ephemeral wanderings of man.

Amen!

[Pandora]

And another couple of things, now that I've been thinking about this:  where did the Church -- all the churches -- stand when it came to Social Security?  To Medicare?  Did they fight then, or were the church hierarchies only too happy to pass off to the government their duty of caring for the poor and sick?

As to the "pedophilia scandal":  as far as I'm aware, "children" were not molested; boys were, and on the cusp of teen age or early teenagers.  Fran Porretto wrote a piece on this long ago; there's a name for this disorder, ephebophilia.