Topic: After vous, Alphonse ....

[Pandora]

Here are a few things to think about as we gear up for yet another mindless foreign military adventure (YAMFMA):

    The Europeans seem to believe the continent can be a military power without possessing military power.

    The ongoing fiscal crisis has caused the Europeans to reduce defense outlays even more deeply. . . .

    . . .Virtually all European peoples prefer to preserve welfare benefits than guard against security threats.[1]

So, someone please tell me why it’s the U.S. that should get out in front and do the deed in Libya at this particular hour.  Aren’t the Europeans big-time human rights champions and isn’t Libya in their backyard? Can we even ask this?

Apparently they’re saving their army(ies) for a rainy day or can’t muster 10 fighters to inconvenience the world’s no. 1 killer screwball.  Given European long ago-established priorities – and obvious intention to let Sam do it toujours l’amour, will all domestic neocons, manifest destinyers, America-must-lead hysterics, and only-remaining-superpower drivel maestros please put a sock in it.

It’s NOT AT ALL clear to me that what’s happening anywhere in the Middle East has any kind of potential to disgorge anything democratic, rational, or un-Islamic.  For the past 150 years while the rest of the world has been scrambling to rationalize politics, society, and economics, the Arab and Persian nations have been firmly in the grip of autocracy and Islamic whatever.  Where enlightened efforts were made in Turkey, Iran, and even Afghanistan to break free of the mullahs, those nations have been or are being dragged back to the archetypical Islamic sand farm.  One way or another, a Muslim state that purports to “modernize” can be likened to a satellite in a degrading orbit around the earth – huge, huge effort to get up there in the first place but inevitable failure down range.

In-ev-i-ta-ble.

Similarly, Al Qaida and the Muslim Brotherhood lurk in the background of Libya and Egypt and are far likelier to command events in the near term whether we do nothing or make like Dudley Do-Right.

As the brilliant adage goes,

    People usually are the way they usually are.

What we have in the Middle East is 1,400 years of Islamic locked brakes and nothing any arrogant ferengi, haoli, infidel dimwit can do is going to change that.  Intervene anywhere in the Middle East and the end result will be Middle Eastern—replete with persecution of Christians, honor killings, first-cousin marriages, and flat-earth Koranic science.

If someone will explain to me how a vital national interest is jeopardized by Outcome A versus Outcome B in Libya, well then, let’s debate that.  But let’s not get involved in yet another formless, shapeless, pretty-much-pointless foreign ground (or air) adventure with a game plan that ensures that our troops get picked off or mined for 365 days and then we wait for State and Defense Department thinkers to issue plans for “Intervention – Phase II: Our Real Objectives in Somalistan Now That We Have Given It Some Thought.”

And if you think that our South-Side-Chicago, Alinskyite Strategist-in-Chief is going to have some grown up input into any of this, well then, you just report to the principal this instant.

We still aren’t getting any Iraqi oil and we still haven’t stopped the flood of heroin out of Afghanistan onto our streets.  Two modest payoffs for a lot of blood, treasure, and aggro, if you ask me.

I do like the part about our killing large numbers of al Qaida types and missing-link Talibangers . . . ok, I LOVE that part, but at the present moment under the current state of affairs with Europe being AWOL from acting like grown ups in their foreign policy (as well), I say we go with “friend to liberty everywhere but guardian only of our own.”

In fact, let’s go with that for the next three generations.

Seriously.

Notes
[1] ”Libya’s Lesson for Europe.” By Doug Bandow, The American Spectator, 3/16/11.

Link


That says it for me.  ::dusts off hands::

[Libertas]

I am by no means a Paulite isolationist, nor am I a runaway interventionist.

There has to be some basis in reality, an application of common sense in what we as a nation decide is important to us to warrant putting our military in harms way.  Without rehashing the whys and whatnot's of Afghanistan and Iraq, suffice it to say that at that time there were good reasons for doing what we did.

In Libya I see no reason to intervene.  I think Palin had a point early on in this case where a NFZ might have made sense, but once everyone let momentum slip and allowed AQ clowns and Talibangers and that ilk to infiltrate into the ranks of the rebellion I think any effort on our part at this juncture could be another Clinton in Somalia type fustercluck!  Intervening for "humanitarian" concerns is BS.  We have no compelling interest in Libya, the Europeans can argue different, so let them deal with it!  This was my main opposition to intervening in Kosovo.  Not our damn problem, that was a European issue 100%.

And if people want to go down this humanitarian road, well, you better up recruitment in every nation a thousand-fold!  Practically every damn nation in Africa is in one civil war/humanitarian crisis.  The Middle East, Central and South America, Central and South East Asia...let's intervene in every damn humanitarian crisis!

And where is the MFM & Dem Pol's in hammering the Dear Leader?  Where's all the constant bombardment of quagmire, why, when, how, how long, and exit strategy for this case, huh?!

At this point in time we have no business getting involved in this.

[Sectionhand]

Fron my point of view Tunisia , Egypt , Libya and Bahrain are only the beginning .The rumblings are starting in Syria too despite the arrogant assurances to the contrary by Assad . When the dust finally settles we're going to see a Middle East heavily tilted toward Islamic Fundamentalism and there's not a damned thing we can do about it .

The only reason to back the NFZ is to save civilian lives , get rid of Ghaddafi and keep the oil fields intact at least for the time being . That's all . The damned fools in the MSM and government who are cheering so loudly for this new-found Arab love of "democracy" have no idea what the real outcome is going to be . I'm not exactly sure myself but I think I'm safe in saying that the result won't equate with freedom ... but that won't become apparent until after the current administration is gone and and we hopefully have one which will take measures necessary to ensure a sensible domestic energy policy ... because there won't be any more oil coming from over there and we'll need all of our own when the time comes to take on "the last man standing" .

[John Florida]

Fron my point of view Tunisia , Egypt , Libya and Bahrain are only the beginning .The rumblings are starting in Syria too despite the arrogant assurances to the contrary by Assad . When the dust finally settles we're going to see a Middle East heavily tilted toward Islamic Fundamentalism and there's not a damned thing we can do about it .

The only reason to back the NFZ is to save civilian lives , get rid of Ghaddafi and keep the oil fields intact at least for the time being . That's all . The damned fools in the MSM and government who are cheering so loudly for this new-found Arab love of "democracy" have no idea what the real outcome is going to be . I'm not exactly sure myself but I think I'm safe in saying that the result won't equate with freedom ... but that won't become apparent until after the current administration is gone and and we hopefully have one which will take measures necessary to ensure a sensible domestic energy policy ... because there won't be any more oil coming from over there and we'll need all of our own when the time comes to take on "the last man standing" .

 I'm waiting for the head faint from this idiot towards drilling for not oil but Natural gas in an effort to shut us and his base up at the same time. But he'll find a way to stop it later.

[charlesoakwood]

SH, some of this is "old timers" (Ollie) who want the sob dead and are less concerned with how.

Ready to be corrected but I think one of the problems for oil drillers is, gasp, gas.
This may be a good work around until 2012.  AlanS, probably has the answer.

[Glock32]

That says it for me.  ::dusts off hands::

Same here, pretty much.

When the Pan-Am bomber was returned to Libya not long ago, and given a hero's welcome, I bet dollars to donuts that not a small part of that adoring crowd are now being called "the Rebels". In other words, we're supposed to be all boisterous and ride in on a white stallion to defend our new friends, the (Guys Who Hate Our Guts Just As Much As Every Other Arab Muslim) Rebels?

Oooh, while we're at it, might I suggest hooking them up with some quality Western hardware and the training to use it? That practice has a solid track record, especially among Muslims.

[Sectionhand]

When the Pan-Am bomber was returned to Libya not long ago, and given a hero's welcome, I bet dollars to donuts that not a small part of that adoring crowd are now being called "the Rebels". In other words, we're supposed to be all boisterous and ride in on a white stallion to defend our new friends, the (Guys Who Hate Our Guts Just As Much As Every Other Arab Muslim) Rebels?

My suspicions have been exactly the same since the uprising began ( and which I predicted on our old site , I might add ) .

Charles ... I'm one of the  "Old Timers" who wants the S.O.B. dead but that's only an ancillary consideration . In the end we will learn one way or the other who we're dealing with in Libya and the rest of the Middle East as a result of these uprisings and I don't think we'll like what we see . I just want it clarified sooner than later .

[rickl]

When the Pan-Am bomber was returned to Libya not long ago, and given a hero's welcome, I bet dollars to donuts that not a small part of that adoring crowd are now being called "the Rebels". In other words, we're supposed to be all boisterous and ride in on a white stallion to defend our new friends, the (Guys Who Hate Our Guts Just As Much As Every Other Arab Muslim) Rebels?

My suspicions have been exactly the same since the uprising began ( and which I predicted on our old site , I might add ) .

This would seem to bear out your suspicions:  Anti-American Extremists Among Libyan Rebels U.S. Has Vowed To Protect  (hat tip neo-neocon)

Abu-Bakr was one of hundreds of foreign fighters who flocked into the killing zones of Iraq to wage war against the “infidels." They came from Saudi Arabia, Syria, Oman, Algeria and other Islamic states. But on a per capita basis, no country sent more young fighters into Iraq to kill Americans than Libya -- and almost all of them came from eastern Libya, the center of the anti-Gaddafi rebellion that the United States and others now have vowed to protect, according to internal al Qaeda documents uncovered by U.S. intelligence.

According to a cache of al Qaeda documents captured in 2007 by U.S. special operations commandos in Sinjar, Iraq, hundreds of foreign fighters, many of them untrained young Islamic volunteers, poured into Iraq in 2006 and 2007. The documents, called the Sinjar documents, were collected, translated and analyzed at the West Point Counter Terrorism Center. Almost one in five foreign fighters arriving in Iraq came from eastern Libya, from the towns of Surt, Misurata and Darnah.

On a per capita basis, that’s more than twice as many than came from any other Arabic-speaking country, amounting to what the counter terrorism center called a Libyan “surge" of young men eager to kill Americans.

I am opposed to getting involved in any war as long as Obama is Commander-in-Chief.  He simply cannot be trusted to act in America's interest.  Indeed, he can be depended on to do precisely the opposite.

[charlesoakwood]

"Old Timers" desire to see Daffy on a platter is more than justified, it seems that some or many who still have influence are so overcome with desire that involving the nation in this farce is acceptable.  They could have given Ollie mission control and the autopsy would reveal he succumbed to nose bleed caused by a small perforation.

So, Benghazi stronghold of the "Rebels" is in the area that contributed the most, per capita,  anti-US fighters in Iraq.  The fingers of Ahmadinejad touch all the Middle East.

Someone said we would be safer is Obama stayed on the golf course, Obama has proved he can be deleterious to this nation on or off the course. As Gunny said, it's almost April where are the subpoenas?

[Libertas]

I think we're all singing off the same page.  Many of us have expressed concern over the presence of hardcore islamist terrorist scum in Libya and elsewhere.  And nobody is asking Obamakov what his fricken plan is in a post-Daffy Libya, or in any other nation currently in flames in the region!  These leftists idiots in the MFM and government think we're going to have fluffy bunnies and unicorns after the dust settles!  What the frack are they basing that idiotic hope on?!

This sonofabitch is leaving the next President a destroyed economy, a gigantic federal bureaucracy and the largest foreign policy bag of sh*t ever created!

[rickl]

This sonofabitch is leaving the next President a destroyed economy, a gigantic federal bureaucracy and the largest foreign policy bag of sh*t ever created!

"Mission Accomplished."

[Sectionhand]

This is becoming a more confused mess by the minute . The mission goal is not clearly defined and too many outcomes are being freely discussed including Ghadaffi remaining in place and even a divided Libya which would be a complete disaster . Conflicting reports are rampant as to what each country in the coalition is willing to do or capable of doing . It looks as if the only one with a definite desire to see Ghadaffi eliminated is Sarkozy . What is certain is that air power alone won't settle anything . Ground forces will have to be committed and Tripoli cleaned out . If Sarkozy is that hot about it he has the troops ideally situated and trained for this kind of fight . The Foreign Legion is within spitting distance of this fight and has fair sized combat units south , west and north of Libya which can be deployed in a matter of hours and are probably sitting on their duffel bags right now . But what happens next is anyone's guess . It will be a hell of a note to go through all these perambulations and then pick up the toys and go home in a couple of weeks leaving things worse off than when it started . Whatever happens the end isn't going to be good . A lot of killing is going to take place in the near future and it's going to leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth . And even that won't be the end of things .

[charlesoakwood]

Yes
Yes
&
Yes

Am er rica, lapdog lackeys to the Arab league.

[John Florida]

This is becoming a more confused mess by the minute . The mission goal is not clearly defined and too many outcomes are being freely discussed including Ghadaffi remaining in place and even a divided Libya which would be a complete disaster . Conflicting reports are rampant as to what each country in the coalition is willing to do or capable of doing . It looks as if the only one with a definite desire to see Ghadaffi eliminated is Sarkozy . What is certain is that air power alone won't settle anything . Ground forces will have to be committed and Tripoli cleaned out . If Sarkozy is that hot about it he has the troops ideally situated and trained for this kind of fight . The Foreign Legion is within spitting distance of this fight and has fair sized combat units south , west and north of Libya which can be deployed in a matter of hours and are probably sitting on their duffel bags right now . But what happens next is anyone's guess . It will be a hell of a note to go through all these perambulations and then pick up the toys and go home in a couple of weeks leaving things worse off than when it started . Whatever happens the end isn't going to be good . A lot of killing is going to take place in the near future and it's going to leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth . And even that won't be the end of things .

 This not going to end well for us.

[Pandora]

No.  The Arab League is already screaming about civilian casualties - "We wanted a no-fly zone, that's all.  Look what you've done!"

I don't know if anyone's seen Roger Simon's piece on this at Pajamas Media, but here's Auster's take on it:

Looking around the conservative Web for responses to the U.S. attack on Libya, I found Roger Simon at “Pajamas Media.” His piece consists largely of anti-Obama cracks, such as, “Hillary Clinton now assumes the presidency,” and “Obama was a blip, his vaunted verbal facility from the ‘08 presidential election now seeming a distant memory from a particularly bland and pompous advertising campaign.” So much of the conservative media is like this, consisting of endless personal ire and disgust at Obama, and is unreadable for that reason.

However, Simon’s anger at Obama is not just personal. It stems from the fact that Obama took too long to act against Kaddafi. Here is his reasoning:

    I know there are some extreme libertarians [LA replies: That’s me—an extreme libertarian!] who think Libya is none of our business—that we, and the international community, should stay out and let the locals blow each other to smithereens until the next dictator takes the throne or the old one keeps it and locks his enemies in torture chambers. Attractive and consoling as that idea may be, the world is nowhere near that simple. We live on a tiny globe that is shrinking by the moment for a myriad of reasons from instant communications to limited energy to a global economy. The bloodshed in Benghazi affects the refineries of Texas just as the tsunami at Fukushima rocks the boatyards of Crescent City. And those are only a couple of the most obvious instances this week.

    We’re all in this together. Sorry.

    And I have to tell you one other thing. Remember this: We’re Americans. Good is what we are supposed to do.

We’re all in this together. We’re all one world, run under American auspices. If Simon’s thinking were applied consistently, America the Good would literally have to take over and govern every nation on earth. And that, it seems, is what the “conservatives” really mean by American Exceptionalism.

I cannot believe Duh Wun managed, after waffling for so long, to get us involved in this.  THERE. IS. NO. MONEY.

[charlesoakwood]

THERE. IS. NO. MONEY.

Well..................PRINT SOME!

[Pandora]

C'mere, CO; lemme smack you.

[Libertas]

Charles, meet Pan.



Put some extra stink on it for me!

 

[Pandora]

Thanks for that, Libertas; that's a good one that I swiped (from you?) the last time I saw it.

Question:  Since Congress was not consulted and did not agree to this, there's no appropriations bill.  How is this going to get paid for?  Aside from THERE. IS. NO. MONEY.

[Libertas]

Exactly.  Military assets on routine deployment are covered by current operating funds approved by Congress in normal appropriation bills.  With the CR's I am guessing a certain level is maintained.  But we cannot launch a bunch of missiles and air sorties and all the fuel etc it takes to sustain it without additional funding.  There may be some interesting discussions coming up once this latest CR runs out.  It is a debate worth having.  Short answer, the Admin will burn through existing operating funds in no time flat, he'd have to divert from elsewhere in the bureaucracy to continue operating without a new influx.