Author Topic: (video) Man open carrying, cops engage, he refuses them, they back down  (Read 3874 times)

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Offline IronDioPriest

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This video is intense. But it goes to show exactly the kind of knowledge, attitude, and testicles it takes to fight back against an ever-intrusive police presence.

I just took my course last week to renew my permit (every 5 years in MN). It is maddening to me to sit through a class where the point is plainly made that MN makes no distinction between open/concealed carry, and that open carry is perfectly legal - but you'd better damn well not do it or you're just asking for trouble from cops.

That's bullsh*t. If something is legal, there is no justification for police to hassle you. If it is a constitutional right, then doubly so. I think every gun carrier should be as knowledgeable and have command of the law as this fella does. Bravo sir!

Man Cites Law, Cops Back Down
A guy carrying a gun in public gets stopped by cops, he recites some laws and the cops eventually back down.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Online Pandora

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The premise is bullsht, and this man did himself proud.  He stayed calm, reasonable AND kept asking the crucial question, "Am I free to leave?"

The more people who exercise the right to open carry, where our betters have deemed it legal, the better for everyone -- the cops get used to seeing the peaceable, openly armed; the people get used to seeing guns openly worn; and the kids are educated in what a citizen, not a subject, looks like.
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Offline IronDioPriest

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The more people who exercise the right to open carry, where our betters have deemed it legal, the better for everyone -- the cops get used to seeing the peaceable, openly armed; the people get used to seeing guns openly worn; and the kids are educated in what a citizen, not a subject, looks like.

I tried to make that point in my carry class and I was patronized. It was a long day, being instructed by a morbidly obese slob who could barely walk, never a LEO, never served - which is fine - but to take the attitude that he is the authority, and then portray the right to carry as something to be done in the shadows so as to not "shock" people with the extremism of the 2nd Amendment - that just pissed me right off.

I thought a CC instructor would be the perfect person to pull aside to discuss ideas about a local open carry club. He looked at me like I was a silly child with a dangerous idea.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Predator Don

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This video is intense. But it goes to show exactly the kind of knowledge, attitude, and testicles it takes to fight back against an ever-intrusive police presence.

I just took my course last week to renew my permit (every 5 years in MN). It is maddening to me to sit through a class where the point is plainly made that MN makes no distinction between open/concealed carry, and that open carry is perfectly legal - but you'd better damn well not do it or you're just asking for trouble from cops.

That's bullsh*t. If something is legal, there is no justification for police to hassle you. If it is a constitutional right, then doubly so. I think every gun carrier should be as knowledgeable and have command of the law as this fella does. Bravo sir!

Man Cites Law, Cops Back Down
A guy carrying a gun in public gets stopped by cops, he recites some laws and the cops eventually back down.


The guy was prepared. Good for him. He was stopped illegally.
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The more people who exercise the right to open carry, where our betters have deemed it legal, the better for everyone -- the cops get used to seeing the peaceable, openly armed; the people get used to seeing guns openly worn; and the kids are educated in what a citizen, not a subject, looks like.

I tried to make that point in my carry class and I was patronized. It was a long day, being instructed by a morbidly obese slob who could barely walk, never a LEO, never served - which is fine - but to take the attitude that he is the authority, and then portray the right to carry as something to be done in the shadows so as to not "shock" people with the extremism of the 2nd Amendment - that just pissed me right off.

I thought a CC instructor would be the perfect person to pull aside to discuss ideas about a local open carry club. He looked at me like I was a silly child with a dangerous idea.

IDP, he makes his living instructing concealed carry classes; treating people like you as silly children with a dangerous idea is his idea of job retention. 

There's no fee or class involved with simply and openly wearing the object material to and of your right to keep and bear arms in a holster at your hip.

People like him are part of the problem with folks getting the screaming meemies at the sight of an armed person, despite the fact that the armed may be engaging in the most innocuous of activities when observed.
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Offline IronDioPriest

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The thing is, in MN there is no concealed carry law. We have a shall-issue carry law period, and the law makes no distinction whatsoever between concealed and open carry. The ONLY reasons for these instructors to push concealed carry are a) embarrassment/fear of reaction or b) tactical advantage.

This guy was heavy on the embarrassment/fear of reaction, and the tactical advantage of surprise was a secondary reason.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

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The thing is, in MN there is no concealed carry law. We have a shall-issue carry law period, and the law makes no distinction whatsoever between concealed and open carry. The ONLY reasons for these instructors to push concealed carry are a) embarrassment/fear of reaction or b) tactical advantage.

This guy was heavy on the embarrassment/fear of reaction, and the tactical advantage of surprise was a secondary reason.

Really!  You need to take a class - to get a permit? - to open carry?  *sigh*  Bullsh*t; it's everywhere.

So, this guy believes people who carry openly may "shock the laity" into agitating the legislature to revoke the "right" to carry, apparently.  Still job protection.

As for tactical advantage, there are pros and cons each for open and concealed, depending on the circumstances, as I'm sure you're aware, but I'm damned if I've ever been acquainted with the "embarrassment" issue.
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Offline Glock32

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I still do not have a CC permit, and I will leave it to the reader to infer my habits on the matter. Suffice to say, while I am pleased that concealed carry has been largely normalized and culturally accepted over the past 15 years, I am nevertheless troubled by the accompanying acceptance of applying for permission from the state to exercise a natural right. The Constitution says the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Telling me I can only bear them with a permission slip from the state is an infringement
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Offline Alphabet Soup

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Years ago I obtained my CCP on recommendation of 2nd Amendment rights activists who pointed out that it applied to more than just a gun. Under Worthington state law (at least at the time) you could be charged with carrying a concealed weapon for keeping a tire iron under your seat or a baseball bat in your backseat. It was rare but not unheard of as a way of fishing for prosecution.

Even a pocket knife or box cutter was subject to inclusion if they squinted up their face and decided they wanted it to be.

The permit compelled you to keep your weapons concealed though and that was often cumbersome. We're an open-carry state now (although I don't open carry myself) and, outside of a few over-eager prosecuting attorneys, this is a fairly "liberal" state.

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Years ago I obtained my CCP on recommendation of 2nd Amendment rights activists who pointed out that it applied to more than just a gun. Under Worthington state law (at least at the time) you could be charged with carrying a concealed weapon for keeping a tire iron under your seat or a baseball bat in your backseat. It was rare but not unheard of as a way of fishing for prosecution.

Even a pocket knife or box cutter was subject to inclusion if they squinted up their face and decided they wanted it to be.

The permit compelled you to keep your weapons concealed though and that was often cumbersome. We're an open-carry state now (although I don't open carry myself) and, outside of a few over-eager prosecuting attorneys, this is a fairly "liberal" state.

Part of the reason I don't wear mine is the possible "printing".  I don't have a lot of body on which to conceal a weapon without looking like I'm wearing a tent.
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Offline IronDioPriest

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Since a state's regulation of the right to bear arms is grounded constitutionally, I would have less problem with the state regulating the bearing of arms if the state would also acknowledge our status as citizen militia with the same attention to the letter of the constitution.

The states regulate firearms and grant permits using that militia clause as their justification, but the regulations have absolutely nothing to do with militia, free exercise, or state security, and everything to do with controlling guns and gun owners.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline IronDioPriest

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Years ago I obtained my CCP on recommendation of 2nd Amendment rights activists who pointed out that it applied to more than just a gun. Under Worthington state law (at least at the time) you could be charged with carrying a concealed weapon for keeping a tire iron under your seat or a baseball bat in your backseat. It was rare but not unheard of as a way of fishing for prosecution.

Even a pocket knife or box cutter was subject to inclusion if they squinted up their face and decided they wanted it to be.

The permit compelled you to keep your weapons concealed though and that was often cumbersome. We're an open-carry state now (although I don't open carry myself) and, outside of a few over-eager prosecuting attorneys, this is a fairly "liberal" state.

Part of the reason I don't wear mine is the possible "printing".  I don't have a lot of body on which to conceal a weapon without looking like I'm wearing a tent.

The fanny-pack holsters worn side-saddle are a great solution for small women when a carry purse is not convenient. I'm not a small woman (s'posed to be funny) but I use the fanny-pack holster in the summer time quite a bit, when concealing clothing is not a good option. M&P fits perfectly in there.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

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Years ago I obtained my CCP on recommendation of 2nd Amendment rights activists who pointed out that it applied to more than just a gun. Under Worthington state law (at least at the time) you could be charged with carrying a concealed weapon for keeping a tire iron under your seat or a baseball bat in your backseat. It was rare but not unheard of as a way of fishing for prosecution.

Even a pocket knife or box cutter was subject to inclusion if they squinted up their face and decided they wanted it to be.

The permit compelled you to keep your weapons concealed though and that was often cumbersome. We're an open-carry state now (although I don't open carry myself) and, outside of a few over-eager prosecuting attorneys, this is a fairly "liberal" state.

Part of the reason I don't wear mine is the possible "printing".  I don't have a lot of body on which to conceal a weapon without looking like I'm wearing a tent.

The fanny-pack holsters worn side-saddle are a great solution for small women when a carry purse is not convenient. I'm not a small woman (s'posed to be funny) but I use the fanny-pack holster in the summer time quite a bit, when concealing clothing is not a good option. M&P fits perfectly in there.

That's exactly what I used to do until the weight (it really isn't THAT heavy with the gun in it) hanging on one side started giving me a bad backache on the other.  Now I just wear it on my shoulder -- no ill effects backwise; go figure -- but it's a hassle having it slide down my arm and is not as convenient.

/Heck, I got the impression you weren't even a small man.   ;)
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Offline Glock32

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Since a state's regulation of the right to bear arms is grounded constitutionally, I would have less problem with the state regulating the bearing of arms if the state would also acknowledge our status as citizen militia with the same attention to the letter of the constitution.

The states regulate firearms and grant permits using that militia clause as their justification, but the regulations have absolutely nothing to do with militia, free exercise, or state security, and everything to do with controlling guns and gun owners.

I sort of agree, as a nod to the concept of federalism, but if the other Amendments are held to be incorporated against the states, why not the 2nd?  NC's constitution is particularly evasive on the subject:

Quote
Sec. 30.  Militia and the right to bear arms.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained, and the military shall be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.  Nothing herein shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the General Assembly from enacting penal statutes against that practice.

The last sentence strikes me as something that was tacked on afterwards. It runs contrary to the initial "shall not be infringed".  It's like "this shall not infringed; now, moving on, here is the first infringement."
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charlesoakwood

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Open carry is an oddity because it's rare.  We see a cop in uniform
and sometimes an obvious cop with the badge on his belt with the
gun. 

It's the rarity of open carry that's the shocker, it's human nature
to reject the oddity.  It would be accepted quicker in rural communities
but we will have a societal change before open carry is common or
accepted without hesitation.

Offline IronDioPriest

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Open carry is an oddity because it's rare.  We see a cop in uniform
and sometimes an obvious cop with the badge on his belt with the
gun. 

It's the rarity of open carry that's the shocker, it's human nature
to reject the oddity.  It would be accepted quicker in rural communities
but we will have a societal change before open carry is common or
accepted without hesitation.


You're exactly right Charles - which is why I like the idea of local open-carry clubs - a dozen or so people organized with local business owners, to have an "evening out" or hold charity events while carrying openly. Community activism and outreach by good guys instead of the usual agitators, malcontents, and miscreants. If such clubs became commonplace, eventually they would garner media attention, and the proof would be in the pudding. Demonization would fail. Society would be exposed to friends and neighbors exercising 2A rights.

I thought a Carry instructor would be the perfect person with whom to broach the subject.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

charlesoakwood

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A shooting range or dealer as a sponsor? 
It would be a natural starting place for like
minds to meet.

Offline Libertas

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It ought to be legal and one should not be harassed if walking down the street with any manner of weapon, as long as you are not threatening anybody, none of any states business!

I can vouch for ridiculous restriction on knives, try looking up the retard laws states, cities and municipalities have about fixed or folding blades, they are all over the board as to type and length allowed, where they are not allowed....complete BS.

I like the idea of an open carry club, I want an excuse to carry my S&W Gov!   ::whoohoo::

Then I can carry something else in a cross-draw and strap a big-ass Bowie on my leg and go strollin'!   ;D
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charlesoakwood

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I have a couple of my great grandfather's folding knives,
they would put me in prison for carrying one of those things.


Offline LadyVirginia

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reminds me of those people a few ago that willing got arrested because there was a tip that a robbery suspect was in a car at the intersection...

A few months ago one of my daughter's friends dropped her off at home and then pulled into the parking lot of a small business (hair salon) at the end of our street.  It was late at night but he wanted to make a call before he headed home.  As soon as he finished his call and pulled out onto the street a cop pulled him over.  He hadn't had time to do anything. The cop said there'd been hair salon products stolen from the business recently.  I guess that was the cop's probable cause but I'm pretty sure that was bogus. Then he gave our friend a field sobriety test--which he passed and the cop let him go.  I think he saw the car in the parking lot and assumed our friend had pulled over drunk. Since he hadn't seen anything he used the alleged robbery as probable cause.  I think it's thin as probable cause. ( I guess I should add he drives a pickup and no one around here drives a pickup.)
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